Reasons for getting a handgun over getting a taser?

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Jim K said:
One obvious one is that many states that allow concealed carry of a handgun (often with a permit) totally ban carrying of Tasers. Another is that IIRC, the only civilian-legal Taser is the kind you have to actually press against the body of the attacker; the kind that shoot barbed darts were declared an AOW by BATFE, I believe.
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This is not accurate. Civilian model TASERs have a 15-foot range as opposed to the 26-foot range of their LE models, but both are capable of firing and drive-stunning.
 
One drawback that may not have been considered is that if/when she uses a pistol to defend herself, and she kills an attacker, she will be put on trial for homicide. It's a simple fact of life.
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That simply isn't true.

She will be investigated, and it may be investigated as a homicide initially. But there is a lot of ground between "person of interest" or "suspect" and "defendant".

-Most states have some sort of "castle doctrine"; If she kills an attacker inside her home, it is very unlikely she will ever see the inside of a courtroom over the matter.

-If she shoots someone in public, it's just going to depend on the evidence or witnesses supporting that it was a self-defense shooting. Her being female gives her an initial advantage here (shouldn't, but does)

All that said, legal consequences are a distant secondary concern to survival.

As for the OP, taser vs. handgun-

Tasers can be highly effective, but under much more limited circumstances. They are best used by trained professionals, and are generally employed to subdue people who DO NOT present a deadly threat; LEO's who are faced with deadly threats still resort to deadly force most of the time.

Even dart & wire tasers have a very limited effective range, and both barbs have to find their mark. Easy to miss and heavy clothing renders them completely ineffective.

Even the best ranged taser only gives two shots; A subcompact handgun offers at least 5.

Ranged tasers are not cheap, costing upwards of $500 for good ones.

Tasers don't affect everyone, even with a good hit.

Tasers only temporarily incapacitate.

Multiple threats put the taser at an obvious disadvantage.

Obviously, the handgun isn't a talisman that will protect her effectively 100%, even if she does score hits. But it is decidedly more effective as a personal SD weapon.
 
Killing someone is a homicide. If it's justifiable, i.e. self-defense, then there is usually no trial. There is usually an investigation, and perhaps even a grand jury is assembled to determine whether or not there should be a prosecution, but if it is determined to be justified, then no, there won't be a trial.
 
There is usually an investigation, and perhaps even a grand jury is assembled to determine whether or not there should be a prosecution, but if it is determined to be justified, then no, there won't be a trial.
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Or a DA up for election next fall who wants to 'set an example' and then a trial goes forward.

A grand jury is rarely the only method of obtaining an indictment.
 
The Probation Dept wanted us to try out tasers. We found that they could not penetrate the thick layers of clothing folks tend to wear during Chicago winters.

Pepper spray is a better alternative--can handle more than one assailant.

Firearm is best--unless you think the assailaint's life is worth more than yours.
Jim
 
Do keep in mind that drive-stunning a bad guy is a VERY physically demanding action to perform, and is a pain-compliance technique, which does not involve the central nervous system, as is supposed to occur when the darts strike. If one dart strikes, no current will be conducted through the bad guy, unless the defender can manage to tough the bad guy with the device, which will complete the circuit, but the defender has to first CATCH the bad guy before he can rip the one dart free.

Another thing: Tasers are ideally used to target the large muscle groups in the back. The smaller muscle groups on the front of the body are not as effective targets. A lone defender, whether LEO or private citizen, is therefore not as well-served by a Taser. This is why most successful employments of Tasers by LEOs are by back-up officers, not the one facing the bad guy. Moreover, bad guys will not usually just stand there and let themselves be darted. In the private citizen context, this means a Taser is better for defending a third party, than self-defense.
 
I can't understand anyone wanting a taser (that has to remain in contact with a bad guy-- by wires or by actual contact) as a better defensive option over a handgun.

Us average joes and jills aren't arresting people and her primary concern was self defense IN her home? In Texas?

Both require training, one allows you to break contact and retreat.
 
My ex-girlfriend argued a similar argument when she testified against someone and was notified that the gentleman was being released form prison 10 years later.

My points that made her lean towards a firearm:

1. Tazers sometimes don't work. Sometimes the constellations align just right and the guy will rip the prongs out and keep coming.
2. What happens when you MISS? You only have one shot.
3. What happens when his partner walks in the door and finds his buddy incapacitated and tazed. You only have (had) one shot.
4. Civilians can't own tazers, so why are we discussing this? We can only have pepper sprays of varying effectiveness and some novelty like stun guns that require you to be in close proximity. The point of stopping an attacker is to get AWAY...not closer.

My current girlfriend has (had) a decent body contact tazing device. Her grandfather bought it for her. We were having a dinner table discussion about it one night and I brought up how those devices are worthless. Too big to carry anywhere but in your pocketbook where a fst draw is impossible, batteries could go dead, requires you to get close (you should be doing the opposite!?!) or whatever. What settled the discussion? I let my 12 year old zap me as I wrestled him to the ground and took it from him. No adrenaline rush, no drugs...just an average guy (5'10" 170 lbs) and the zapper couldn't stop me.

Everyone now agrees that they are useless in an attack. Tasers? Great if you are a cop and you can have one...but you still have a sidearm for when that taser isn't enough.

I guess I should have youtubed it so you can show her the video.
 
Actually, citizens can own tazers in Texas, they just can't carry them... Cheaper than Dirt has a good selection of them in their showroom...

Con's
You can miss.. both leads have to strike and stick in the target..
They are expensive,, $450 and up, for the single shot models.. two shot models, hang on to your pocket book...
The cartridges are also very expensive... can't afford to practice with them..
They have to be charged and maintained..
I have seen suspects pull the leads out... and while they were weak, they were pissed! And when properly motivated, hard as heck to stop, amazing how fast they can recover!
They will work through heavy clothing, however their efficiency is diminished, greatly.. But the little blue sparks look cool in the rain...
little wires to get tangles up in and trip over... kidding, but there are wires...
Lacks the ability to engage multiple assailants, no follow up shots.. no second chance..

Poor Choice against an ARMED attacker... but not a real good option.. it's the age old "Continuum of Force" thing.. they use a fist, you use a tazer or a club, they use a club or a knife, you use a gun.... Un-written rule.. Never meet aggression with equal force.. if you are in a fare fight, your tactics suck, and you are most likely going to loose...

Pro's of a Taser,
Ah.. if you live through it.. it probably won't go to a Grand Jury.. unless he hits his head on your coffee table or nightstand as he falls, and suffers an open head wound and bleeds out why "doing the tuna" on your floor.
I'll have to think about the pro side some more,, I'll have to get back to you on that....


Someone mentioned Pepper Spray... OK for piece of mind, however only about 60% effective on hopped up, excited or "Motivated" suspects... however it is a proven fact, that they work 100% of the time on Policemen and bystanders... And the stuff gets EVERYWHERE... very, very irritating to the eyes and lungs,, in a closed in area, you most likely will be impaired yourself, and most likely slinging "Snot Ropes" for a while.. not fun... Hose down a suspect with pepper spray or other OC,, your not putting him in MY car...!! BTDT.. Got the Tee Shirt...

Pistols, Shotguns (I too like the 20ga option) at least one of sufficient caliber and bullet weight does not have a problem with heavy clothing.
Legal to own, AND Carry...
Ammunition, cheaper and plentiful.. and trips to the range can be fun
Don't have to keep a pistol on a charger... bullets don't use batteries...
They just work better, and EVERYBODY understands the universal language of a Shotgun Slide being racked.. it IS the loudest thing you can do in a dark room. Or a slide on a pistol coming home, or the hammer on a revolver cocking, (but I DO NOT CONDONE Single action use of a double action pistol) .. nobody mistakes it.. Or Yelling, I have a GUN, works better than I'm gonna shock you!!

Every stand off Tazer I have seen is equipped with a Laser... your/her pistol should as well.. it also does a lot of explaining for you.. I personally LOVE laser sights, the use of a laser has ended more potentially lethal encounters, with out a word being spoken.. it will cause the smoke to rise off of tennis shoe heals pretty quickly... And if it doesn't well, that's what the bullets are for..
And
Your in TEXAS, there is not a DA in this State that would charge and try a Woman, who defended herself and her home by shooting a burglar in her own home, and have a Preachers chance in hell of getting re-elected, and they know that... Public here wouldn't stand for it... Something about Women and Honor, the Code of the West and all that stuff... It would be political suicide...

Just me rambling on at the end of a long day...
Bob
 
Just to point out the problem with tasers, I got a cheap contact one at Cabellas, rated at 10k volts. I know they go up over a million, but I just thought "this will be fun". My friend and I use it on each other all the time, and even a full second burst is barely more than a tickle. I'm sure if I held it on someone for several seconds it might do something.
 
"One drawback that may not have been considered is that if/when she uses a pistol to defend herself, and she kills an attacker, she will be put on trial for homicide."

In context, the implication is that if she uses a shotgun, there will be no risk of a trial. That is simply not true even in states that have rigid pistol laws.

Nothing is predictable when DA's want to get re-elected, and police are sometimes corrupt, but it is rare for an innocent homeowner to be prosecuted, let alone indicted and tried for killing an intruder, regardless of the weapon used. Even the use of an unregistered handgun (where registration is required) will result in a charge of violating the registration law, not in a charge of murder. Often the shooter is not even arrested.

Self defense killing outside the home is another matter. The shooter will almost always be arrested, and held at least while the prosecutor decides whether to press charges. The ramifications are too complex to discuss here, but anyone carrying a gun should be aware of the legal risks; a CCW is not a "license to kill".

Jim
 
MachIVshooter said:
One drawback that may not have been considered is that if/when she uses a pistol to defend herself, and she kills an attacker, she will be put on trial for homicide.
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That simply isn't true.

-Most states have some sort of "castle doctrine"; If she kills an attacker inside her home, it is very unlikely she will ever see the inside of a courtroom over the matter.
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AZ has a castle doctrine, and AZ has some of the nation's most lenient gun laws. That being said, as a criminal justice and law student, I know for a fact that if you kill someone in this state, in your home or somewhere else, you're going to trial. Period.

Another student in my class was convicted of 2nd degree murder when he shot and killed a burglar inside his home. It happens, whether it should or not.

Refusing to give the truth to someone considering his or her first defensive gun is a cruel and enormous injustice.
 
Someone mentioned Pepper Spray... OK for piece of mind, however only about 60% effective on hopped up, excited or "Motivated" suspects... however it is a proven fact, that they work 100% of the time on Policemen and bystanders... And the stuff gets EVERYWHERE...
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Another point I've tried to make to my girlfriend. The stuff is going to get the sprayer and the sprayee. I haven't let her mace me yet to get that point across, but I'm thinking that I should.
 
Mark-Smith,

What was her objection to a gun?

You said that in response to the home of a friend of her's being broken into, not her house but a friends, she wanted to get her CCW. Now this implies she already has a gun but maybe not. She does not need a CCW to have a gun in her home for home defense purposes. She does need a CCW if she legally wants to carry a gun around for self defense purposes though. But that after some consideration she decided to carry a stun gun instead or a Taser for the house. So again, what exactly was her objection to the gun?

Now you are a certified NRA instructor in long guns but not in hand guns. But you are familiar with hand guns no doubt. You have spoken to her about all this. You may or may not have met people who are nervous around guns. Guns worry them. They are afraid of shooting the wrong person. Worried what will happen if they drop the gun. Worried that they will shoot themselves, etc. For such folks learning to handle a gun properly is not easy. It takes longer for them to feel confidant with a gun in their hand.

Not just for these folks mentioned above but for anyone who wants to carry a handgun range time is needed. Sure it's true that anyone can point and shoot a gun and maybe hit someone at ten feet (this is especially true if you are the attacker). But the element of wanting to hit someone and a good deal of luck may also be involved. Time spent practicing with the gun minimizes the element of luck. It helps the person gain confidence in that gun in their hands. So I think that to tell someone that it is quick and easy to learn how to handle a gun well enough to defend yourself from an attacker can be a bit misleading. Nope it does not involve thousands of hours and multiple visits to Thunder Ranch but it also ain't like screwing in a light bulb either.

tipoc
 
They just work better, and EVERYBODY understands the universal language of a Shotgun Slide being racked.. it IS the loudest thing you can do in a dark room.

Actually, I can think of something louder than the sound of the shotgun being racked... Pulling the trigger...
 
No, they don't, but the hole that a shotgun or bullet makes doesn't stop working after you let of the trigger.
 
Guns worry them. They are afraid of shooting the wrong person. Worried what will happen if they drop the gun. Worried that they will shoot themselves, etc. For such folks learning to handle a gun properly is not easy. It takes longer for them to feel confidant with a gun in their hand.

Not just for these folks mentioned above but for anyone who wants to carry a handgun range time is needed. Sure it's true that anyone can point and shoot a gun and maybe hit someone at ten feet (this is especially true if you are the attacker). But the element of wanting to hit someone and a good deal of luck may also be involved. Time spent practicing with the gun minimizes the element of luck. It helps the person gain confidence in that gun in their hands. So I think that to tell someone that it is quick and easy to learn how to handle a gun well enough to defend yourself from an attacker can be a bit misleading. Nope it does not involve thousands of hours and multiple visits to Thunder Ranch but it also ain't like screwing in a light bulb either.
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I'm not actually certain what she wants. She's my wife's co-worker, so all of this is actually second hand. At first it sounded like she wanted to have a gun to carry in case she came home to find her house broken into. Apparently she's only fired a handgun once or twice, and a shotgun, but hasn't had great experiences with either.

She told my wife that she was thinking about using beanbag rounds in a shotgun, but you might as well use buckshot, as beanbags are only less-lethal. She also worried about shooting someone and getting blood on her floor. :banghead: The wife told her that blood on the floor making a mess should be the least of her concerns!

You are very correct in saying that nervous people make mistakes, and I often take that for granted having grown up with a reasonable acquaintance with firearms.

When it comes to home defense, there isn't a lot of mechanical skill needed to point it in the right direction, but you're right, for some people, there might need to be a fair amount of drilling or familiarization before they find themselves not making stupid mistakes under stress.

I honestly don't know of a good way of helping people work on that, because a range is just shooting at paper targets that don't move. Once they get used to the noise, not much stress.

Unless they're the sort that view aggressive simulated house clearing with paintball guns as a fun weekend activity (and those types are rare!)
 
Mark-Smith said:
...but you're right, for some people, there might need to be a fair amount of drilling or familiarization before they find themselves not making stupid mistakes under stress.
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A lot of things you've said here and there have thrown off my idiot alarm, but this remark has put up every red flag I've got. I don't know if you're fresh out of mom's house, have been sheltered all your life, or if you've just got absolutely no common sense, but I strongly urge you to not talk about guns with anyone less knowledgeable than yourself.

Everyone makes "stupid mistakes" under stress, especially when trying to handle a gun or any other tool. That's the whole point of training. That's why cops and guys in combat jobs in the military aren't just given a gun and thrown into the fight. That's why interviews in fields where you're required to be armed consist of big panels of people interviewing you all by yourself. They know everyone makes stupid mistakes in stressful or uncomfortable situations, and they want to see how you'll react when you make one; not if you make one.

I don't know what your background consists of; or whether you carry a gun day in/day out, or if you just fire your guns a couple of times a year. What I do know is that you have way too arrogant and casual an attitude to be talking to anyone about the pros and cons of carrying a book of matches, much less any type of lethal weapon. I have no idea why people are even offering advice here. This entire thread should be closed before any more damage is done.
 
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Actually, I can think of something louder than the sound of the shotgun being racked... Pulling the trigger...
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I meant BEFORE you did that...

I haven't let her mace me yet to get that point across, but I'm thinking that I should.
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I really would NOT recommend that.. And I DO have the T-Shirt !!

Rodney King went down when he was tasered. Then he pulled out the prongs and got up to juggle cops. Just sayin'.
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.

The Rodney King Incident, and the resulting LA Riots had and profound effect on LE nationwide... We all had to look at it pretty hard, my memory was blank on the time line so... a bit of research yielded.....The RK incident occurred on March 3,1991, that predates Tasers in my department by 5 or 6 years. The 1st Tasers purchased by LE that used a dart system were the 'Air Taser 3400" developed and released in 1994, the current generation of tazers in LE use were released in 1999. Prior to that, only thing that was available were hand held contact use versions. Nope, ole Rodney just took and old fashion beating.. (which was WRONG by the way..just sayin) But I have personally seen people pull the leads out and be just more than a little hard to handle...
 
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Just on the Rodney King bit...

A Taser, supplied by the manufacturer Tasertron to the LAPD, was used on King. It's "failure" was blamed on a faulty propellant charge. However, according to the wiki entry on this...

Sergeant Koon then ordered the officers to "stand clear." King was standing and was not responding to Koon's commands. Koon then fired a Taser into King's back. King groaned; momentarily fell to his knees; then stood back up and turned towards Koon. Koon fired the Taser again, knocking King to the ground.[13] Powell's arrest report states that the Taser "temporarily halt[ed] [Defendant King's] attack," and Solano stated that the Taser appeared to affect King at first because "the suspect shook and yelled for almost five seconds".[16]
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The 4 officers then beat King for a number of minutes while he begged them to stop and tried to crawl away and protect his head. Over a dozen other officers from various agencies stood around and watched while this happened without intervening.

tipoc
 
Mark-Smith said:
I'm a very risk-adverse person. So when I purchased my first handgun, after reading posts on THR for a year or so previous to that, I was fairly worried I'd screw something up and shoot myself.

As it turns out, it takes very little work to avoid shooting yourself if:

A.) You keep the gun pointed in the safest direction available.
B.) You don't touch the trigger till you're ready to shoot something, or let an object get in the way of the trigger.
C.) You load the gun with bullets and
D.) Keep it in a holster designed for that gun

That's all you need. In any self-defense situation where you'll do well in court afterward, there is precious little aiming required to hit a minute of bad guy at 10 ft or less. Point the end that goes bang at the bad guy and pull the trigger.

Compared to any other type of highly skilled labor / hobby / pursuit, this is an incredibly minimal amount of training to succeed.

Now if you're the sort that doesn't have much in the way of common sense, perhaps more training or not having a firearm is the better solution.

But THR, in general, tends to way over-estimate what it takes to succeed in a situation where you're not guaranteed to be dead from the beginning.
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first let me say that i have never been in any non recreational situation that required or was resolved by the use of firearms. i have however had a high stress , life threatening event involving a door. specifically the back door of my mobile home closest to my bedroom. i had used this door and others like it many times over the years and knew instinctively how they operated. i am not a professional but i have installed and repaired doors and their hardware on several occasions. i know how to open a door. nothing to it, just turn the knob and PRESTO you have a hole in the wall. right? well Easter week 1996 my black lab Colt woke me up to say that our trailer was on fire and she wanted to get out NOW. well my school fire drill training kicked in and i got low under the smoke where the good air was and made my way to the back door, the same door i had practiced with thousands of times, and reached for the knob and could not find it. turns out i was feeling around on the right side of the door and the knob was on the left. i was lucky that night , i lost everything i owned but the only damage i sustained was the hair that burned off my head and some nasty blisters on my hand from a hot door. do you want to know why i "tend to way over-estimate" ? it's because guns are a lot more complicated and dangerous than doors.
 
Moonpie pretty much nailed it. This isn't a rare or uncommon example of a person handling stress poorly due to a lack of knowledge or experience. Stress does this to everybody. Saying that "some people will need training to deal with the stress of a situation" is totally ridiculous. Go get yourself in a situation where someone is actively trying to kill you, and let's hear how your calm reaction works out. See how long it takes you to replace bullets in an empty magazine. See how long it takes you to remedy a stovepipe while dodging bullets, with sweaty, shaking hands.

This isn't a law (here in AZ, at least), but I adamantly believe that if you haven't gone through a strict training class, you shouldn't be carrying a handgun. If you don't train, odds are, you'll do more harm than good. And when I saw train, I mean take (and pass) a tactical shooting course, and a refresher on a regular basis. Obviously lots of people will disagree, but that's how I feel.
 
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