recoil - .357 versus .44
- Thread starter N3rday
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Crosscut
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The 44 mag has more a bit more kick than the 357 just by virtue of more powder and a littel more barrel diameter to fill. It's a lot easier to shoot a range sesion with a 357 than a 44, after I run a box through the the Redhawk 44, my wrists will ache for a few hours. The 357 is a more all around load, and if you want even less recoil use the 38 special.
Nortonics
Member
I've shot the hottest .44 mag handloads I dare to muster up from my Bisley gripped Ruger Vaquero and they still weren't as HORRIBLE as my Ruger GP-100 shooting some nasty Corbon loads that needed 4 of the 6 casings pounded out of the cylinder afterwards - the rest of that box is still in storage!
My deduction: A Bisley grip makes a huge difference in felt recoil and high power Corbon ammo is just plain wicked!
I think you'll find variables like this can make a noticeable difference, where at first glance many would just believe the .44 is going to be worse than a .357
My deduction: A Bisley grip makes a huge difference in felt recoil and high power Corbon ammo is just plain wicked!
I think you'll find variables like this can make a noticeable difference, where at first glance many would just believe the .44 is going to be worse than a .357
wanderinwalker
Member
Major recoil difference between the .44 and .357. In a similar sized-platform, say, a Smith and Wesson 629 vs. a S&W Model 27 or 28 (big N-frames), the .357 is quite pleasurable to shoot compared to the .44. Even in my 6" 629, I find myself looking at the target from UNDER the revolver when firing full-power loads.
Never had a full-sized .357 do that to me!
As a rough, feeling-from-my-hands guess, I'd say the .44 Magnum has easily twice the recoil of the .357 Magnum. More bullet weight, more powder, more kick. Simple physics.
Never had a full-sized .357 do that to me!
As a rough, feeling-from-my-hands guess, I'd say the .44 Magnum has easily twice the recoil of the .357 Magnum. More bullet weight, more powder, more kick. Simple physics.
If I shoot a 128 grain JHC load from Buffalo Bore (1700 fps, 802 ft-LBS) in my 4" 686, it feels much the same to me, as 240 grain Winchester White Box out of my 6" 629PP. Would I shoot 270 grain Buffalo Bore (1260 ft-lbs) from a 4" revolver ... hahahaha I use a 6" power ported .44 magnum .... wise, not brutal.
... hahahaha I use a 6" power ported .44 magnum .... wise, not brutal. I notice a significant difference between .357 and .44 magnum. I can shoot some of the hotter Cor-Bon .357 magnum rounds in my GP 100s without any problems. However, full house .44 magnums in my Redhawk is extremely painful--and the super bear loads are just downright nasty.
The grip might play a role--the rubber on the GP 100 has a cushioning effect, while the wood/metal on the Redhawk seems to make recoil worst. The exception is the Bisley grip, which does a pretty good job of taming moderate .44 magnum loads, IMO.
The grip might play a role--the rubber on the GP 100 has a cushioning effect, while the wood/metal on the Redhawk seems to make recoil worst. The exception is the Bisley grip, which does a pretty good job of taming moderate .44 magnum loads, IMO.
ChristopherG
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Recoil isn't a function of pressure, at any rate; you can approximate it more closely by just figuring the power factor. Multiply the bullet weight in grain by feet per second and divide by a thousand.
For a standard .357, that might be 158 x 1250 = 197.5, or 125 x 1450 = 181.3
For a typical .44, it's more like 240 x 1200 = 288, or 180 x 1550 = 279
Then you take into consideration of the weight of the guns (.44's are typically in a little heavier gun, which offsets the difference a bit); and even for equal power factors, there's a bit of a different 'tone' to recoils generated by heavier/slower vs. lighter/faster bullets; but the difference between 197 and 288 is a big difference. Depending on platform, I find I hit a threshold around 250 where the gun stops being quite as fun to shoot, and double-action shooting becomes fairly impractical. I still shoot higher power rounds, but just for a different set of purposes (hunting or silhouette) and preferably from a different platform (Bisley blackhawk).
For a standard .357, that might be 158 x 1250 = 197.5, or 125 x 1450 = 181.3
For a typical .44, it's more like 240 x 1200 = 288, or 180 x 1550 = 279
Then you take into consideration of the weight of the guns (.44's are typically in a little heavier gun, which offsets the difference a bit); and even for equal power factors, there's a bit of a different 'tone' to recoils generated by heavier/slower vs. lighter/faster bullets; but the difference between 197 and 288 is a big difference. Depending on platform, I find I hit a threshold around 250 where the gun stops being quite as fun to shoot, and double-action shooting becomes fairly impractical. I still shoot higher power rounds, but just for a different set of purposes (hunting or silhouette) and preferably from a different platform (Bisley blackhawk).
With relatively high-capacity cases such as those, do not discount the grain weight difference in powder charge - it's a significant weight escaping the barrel at 4000fps.
Considering the greater velocity, every grain of power adds as much recoil as 2-3 extra grains of a bullet.
miko
Considering the greater velocity, every grain of power adds as much recoil as 2-3 extra grains of a bullet.
miko
To me it all depends on the launching platform. A J frame shooting a hot .357 will bring tears to my eyes but I can shoot hot .44's with a big grin from my Bisley Blackhawk and last weekend I shot a 454 out of a Raging Bull that was not unpleasant at all and that is way more power than a .44. Choose the right gun and the recoil becomes a non issue in my opinion. And no, I don't still have the J frame .357
22-rimfire
Member
Years ago I bought my first 357 Mag revolver, a 6" Colt Python. At that time, I thought the recoil on factory 158 gr loads pretty substantial. Time passes and I have shot lots of 41 and 44 mags. I shoot the 41 mag in an N-frame very well and tolerate the recoil on normal factory loads. It is still quite a bit of recoil for everyday shooting and more than a 357. The 44 is just a tad more recoil than the 41 in the same frame and as far as general shooting goes, I tolerate it just as well as the 41 mags. I just like the 41's better which is why I always recommend them.
Step up in power and you will notice a big jump in recoil from the 44 mag for normal factory loadings. What it all boils down to is that you get used to and learn to handle the recoil as you gain experience with a gun. I find the 357's to be almost pleasant to shoot after shooting the larger magnum loads. Any of the substantial loadings such as Buffalo Bore will be noticed over a regular 41 or 44 load and I would not call them pleasant to shoot. It steps the round up toward the 454, 480 Ruger, 475 loads, or larger and you certainly feel them when you shoot. It is a matter of what you are trying to accomplish with the caliber.
Step up in power and you will notice a big jump in recoil from the 44 mag for normal factory loadings. What it all boils down to is that you get used to and learn to handle the recoil as you gain experience with a gun. I find the 357's to be almost pleasant to shoot after shooting the larger magnum loads. Any of the substantial loadings such as Buffalo Bore will be noticed over a regular 41 or 44 load and I would not call them pleasant to shoot. It steps the round up toward the 454, 480 Ruger, 475 loads, or larger and you certainly feel them when you shoot. It is a matter of what you are trying to accomplish with the caliber.
ChristopherG
Member
Absofrigginlutely. The .357 in my pocket weighs in at around 12 ounces, and that certainly affects my recoil tolerance. In that gun, a PF around 150 is as high as I'm willing to go with any regularity, and I'd be lying if I said that was 'fun' to shoot. That little gun is a vicious taskmaster--but I can shoot hundreds of the same rounds I carry in it out of a 37 oz. K-frame and still wish I'd brought more to the range.
Handloads.com has a calculator that takes all these factors into consideration (including powder weight, miko--good point). The FBI load I shoot in my 340pd generates 10.71 ft/lbs free recoil; in my model 66 (which pushes it about 50 fps faster), the same load generates 3.85 ft/lbs.
It's a neat toy. My 45 AR load, a 255 gr. SWC at 900 fps (in a 625), does 8.5 ft/lbs; my .41 mag load, 250 LBT at 1250 fps (bisley blackhawk), does 19.14 ft/lbs.
Here, play with it!
http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp
I know recoil is just a function of bullet weight times velocity, I just figured higher pressure rounds 'feel' like they recoil more...for example, the .40 S&W feeling 'snappy', while the .45acp feels more like a 'push''. Correct me if I'm wrong!
ChristopherG
Member
When you're in the same ballpark in terms of power factor and gun weight, then a heavier bullet travelling slower will feel gentler, and a lighter bullet travelling faster will feel snappier. That's why, for instance, folks who reload 9mm to shoot in Production class in USPSA load a 147 grain bullet moving 851 fps, instead of a 115 grain bullet moving 1087. Even though they both just make the required PF of 125, and may be shot out of the same gun, the heavier bullet just feels softer.
But that kind of thing really only comes into play as a secondary factor, if you're shooting a similar PF in a similar platform. It's not nearly a big enough factor to overcome the diff. between a .357 and a .44 mag--unless the mag is shooting real slow loads. I've got a .41 mag load that pushes a 225 gr bullet at 900 fps. That's around the same PF as the 158 gr. .357 going 1250 (a little higher, actually), but it feels like an absolute kitten. Lower report and flash can also play into the perception of the recoil, usually in favor of a big, slow bullet.
But that kind of thing really only comes into play as a secondary factor, if you're shooting a similar PF in a similar platform. It's not nearly a big enough factor to overcome the diff. between a .357 and a .44 mag--unless the mag is shooting real slow loads. I've got a .41 mag load that pushes a 225 gr bullet at 900 fps. That's around the same PF as the 158 gr. .357 going 1250 (a little higher, actually), but it feels like an absolute kitten. Lower report and flash can also play into the perception of the recoil, usually in favor of a big, slow bullet.
ATAShooter
Member
Every time I hear about a 44 mag, I think of my Grandfather. He was a Yugoslav immagrant ( yes, legal ) who spoke broken english... He called it " Dirty Harry's MANGRUM"
My friend has a Super Redhawk .44 mag., I have a GP100. While the .357 is not hard to shoot, it pops back harder than a .38. With practice, rapid fire can be controlled, with good accuracy. The .44 cannot be, at least not for me. I've been handgunning for 25 years, I have a strong upper body and forearm/grip strength, but for me the .44 mag. is only good for target shooting and deer hunting (my buddy has killed at least 6 with his). The .357, in my estimation, is both powerful and flexible; cheaper to reload, controllable, and about the best manstopper there is. There are even those who hunt whitetails with it, and in a levergun it picks up another +- 400 fps. With the right bullet and placement, it could easily kill whitetails at under 100 yards.
Have I gone OT?
Have I gone OT?
In similar sized guns with the same grips firing magnum loads I find a great deal of difference between 357s and 44s as far as recoil. I have experience with a few combinations of guns in both Magnum cartridges.
As in the example of my 686 and 629 Smiths. The 357 686 has a 6" barrel and the 629 44 Mag is 6 1/2". Both have the same style Hogue grips. Firing , let's say , 240XTP Magnum loads, with the 629 is not punishing by any means but there is definitely more felt recoil than the 686 firing 357 loads of any bullet weight.
My 6 1/2" 357 Blackhawk is pretty mild with max loads , a friend let me borrow his 7 1/2" 44 Super Blackhawk shot. The revolver pivoted upward in my hand with each shot. The 357 pretty much stays put in my hand.
Had a TC 10" 44 Mag barrel - this hurt my hand from round number one! This barrel is no longer with me. My 10" TC 357 Mag is mild by compairison.
My last example is between two Marlin 1894 rifles. Shoot one in 357 and then the 44 back to back , there should be no doubt which was the 44 and which was the 357.
As in the example of my 686 and 629 Smiths. The 357 686 has a 6" barrel and the 629 44 Mag is 6 1/2". Both have the same style Hogue grips. Firing , let's say , 240XTP Magnum loads, with the 629 is not punishing by any means but there is definitely more felt recoil than the 686 firing 357 loads of any bullet weight.
My 6 1/2" 357 Blackhawk is pretty mild with max loads , a friend let me borrow his 7 1/2" 44 Super Blackhawk shot. The revolver pivoted upward in my hand with each shot. The 357 pretty much stays put in my hand.
Had a TC 10" 44 Mag barrel - this hurt my hand from round number one! This barrel is no longer with me. My 10" TC 357 Mag is mild by compairison.
My last example is between two Marlin 1894 rifles. Shoot one in 357 and then the 44 back to back , there should be no doubt which was the 44 and which was the 357.
Magic79
Member
I took a S&W 586 and S&W 29 to the range with several buddies last weekend. Each of them shot both. With the .357, I randomly loaded .38s and .357s in the same cylinder for illustration.
Without exception, every one of them thought the .357 was more violent.
Without exception, every one of them thought the .357 was more violent.
shooter429
Member
This is not as simple as it sounds
As we all know, Newtonian physics tells us that the acceleration a of a mass m by an unbalanced force F is directly proportional to the force and inversely proportional to the mass. In other words, the more powerful the round (greater mass and velocity) the more recoil energy it will generate.
Time is another factor that effects recoil as is the surface area over which the force is directed.
Then there is the directional rotation of the force (or the grip angle).
And don't forget the human factors= expectations, clothing, physical build, sonic levels, bfi etc.
If you have a 44 oz. N-frame with pachmayer grips in .357 and fire a 125 Gr. bullet at 1400fps and then compare it to a similar gun firing a 250 Gr. bullet at 1400fps, you are dealing with twice the momentum, acting over the same surface area and the same mass (frame) and for the same amount of time.
In short, all else being equal, the .44 kicks roughly twice as hard as the .357. My .44 actually hurts when I shoot it. The .357 is a pussycat in comparison.
If you find a medium frame .357 uncomfortable, you will probably find the .44 much more so.
I hope this helps.
Shooter429
As we all know, Newtonian physics tells us that the acceleration a of a mass m by an unbalanced force F is directly proportional to the force and inversely proportional to the mass. In other words, the more powerful the round (greater mass and velocity) the more recoil energy it will generate.
Time is another factor that effects recoil as is the surface area over which the force is directed.
Then there is the directional rotation of the force (or the grip angle).
And don't forget the human factors= expectations, clothing, physical build, sonic levels, bfi etc.
If you have a 44 oz. N-frame with pachmayer grips in .357 and fire a 125 Gr. bullet at 1400fps and then compare it to a similar gun firing a 250 Gr. bullet at 1400fps, you are dealing with twice the momentum, acting over the same surface area and the same mass (frame) and for the same amount of time.
In short, all else being equal, the .44 kicks roughly twice as hard as the .357. My .44 actually hurts when I shoot it. The .357 is a pussycat in comparison.
If you find a medium frame .357 uncomfortable, you will probably find the .44 much more so.
I hope this helps.
Shooter429
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