Recommendations for 30-06 semi auto

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RCBS

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I'd like to buy an '06 semi-uto but am concerned about several things:

1) reliability

2) the necessity of full length resizing cases when handloading. Is this true for all rifle brands or just problematic to specific brands?

3) I understand that some rifles tear the rims off the brass and make them unusable for reloading. Is this true and if so, what models and brands do this?

4) any opinions and ideas are most welcome. Thanks.
 
A Canadian by the name of John Garand made something like that back in the 1930's, perhaps you've heard of him? :lol:

In all seriousness, that's pretty much your best bet. Or a Browning Automatic Rifle, if you want something full-auto. They were select fire, so you could shoot it semi-auto too. I believe there is a company that is manufacturing new semi-auto only M1918A2 BAR's as well, if you can't swing the cost of the real deal.

Both that and the Garand are reliable enough to see America through a World War, and Korea. So they're reliable enough for whatever you want such a rifle for, I daresay.
 
1) M1 Garand

2) Learn more about reloading. Read/Do. F/L sizing takes just as ling as Neck sizing, and can be done in such a way to maximize case life. Its not a negative by any means

3) ??? Not common. What did you hear?

4) Buy a M1 Garand Shoot it a bunch, and when You have lots or brass. Reload it

It would help alot if we knew if you were just wanting to have fun with it or hunt, or shoot tiny groups?
 
Craigman wrote:

1) M1 Garand

2) Learn more about reloading. Read/Do. F/L sizing takes just as ling as Neck sizing,
I'm not worried about the time it takes to resize, it's a question of if, when and why to full length resize with regular or small base dies.

and can be done in such a way to maximize case life. Its not a negative by any means
I thought that maximum case life was derived from neck-sizing only if it was going to be shot in the same gun. I have a bolt action 30-06 and it would be nice to use the same ammo in a semi-auto. I think I understand that full length resizing would probably be required when switching from one gun to another (especially other actions) but there's another factor as well. If small base dies are best for semi-autos, what would the result be if I used “small based” reloads in my bolt action? Less potential accuracy? Higher pressures because of somewhat smaller internal capacity? As I understand it, small base dies size "tightly" and apparently conform to minimum SAAMI dimensions. As I undertand it, bolt actions have inherently more "chambering and extraction capability" than semi-auto's and/or pump actions so "heavily sized" cases would seem to ensure better ejection in all types of actions.

From what I have read, and using my limited experience (please correct me if I’m wrong), it appears that:
a) I probably can't shoot my bolt action neck sized ammo in most other guns, especially semi-autos.
b) "Standard full length resizing" would appear to be required to shoot most of my reloaded 30-06 ammunition from any gun other than my bolt action.
c) What would happen to the accuracy of my bolt action if I shot "small based" full length resized loads in it? I realize it's probably not a safety problem but how much accuracy am I likely to lose, if any?
d) Would it be reasonable to say that all 30-06 ammo reloaded with small base dies would create the best opportunity to avoid malfunctions, smokestack or otherwise, in ANY rifle, particularly pumps and semi-autos?
e) There’s another question that I just thought of. What powder would be best suited to both my bolt action and a semi-auto? I USED to use IMR4350/180 gr. (haven't handloaded in a while) but I wonder if that would be too dirty burning for a semi-auto and 3031 or another faster powder would be better for semi-autos.
f) Will full length resizing with standard or small base dies work harden the brass more quickly that neck sizing only or full length resizing with conventional dies?


3) ??? Not common. What did you hear?
It was long ago and may have been in a gun shop or around a hunting camp/camp fire—I don’t know. Nor do I know if the person making that statement was highly knowledgeable or not. After giving it more thought, maybe it was a jamming/reliability issue and Remington comes to mind but I have no idea why.

4) Buy a M1 Garand Shoot it a bunch, and when You have lots or brass. Reload it
I wondered if Winchester, Browning or others make a reliable “sporting” semi-auto that may be lighter than the Garand or BAR, without the bulk and full auto (I don’t want to spend the bucks for an “auto license”). Members' personal experiences/opinion about these manufacturers' semi-autos would be appreciated.

It would help alot if we knew if you were just wanting to have fun with it or hunt, or shoot tiny groups?
Sorry, I should have added some details:
1) A group size of <1” @ 100 yds. would be perfect but not necessary, 1½” is good and 2 to 2-1/2” is acceptable.
2) The primary purpose would be to “lay a few layers of lead” in a short period of time. Reliability is very important; fit and weight are also serious concerns.
3) I probably wouldn’t reload to a point that I have to anneal the brass but I want the capability to reload for any of type of action—I’m just not sure how to go about it.
 
Regardless of your criteria, I feel you'd really enjoy having a Garand. Mine was $495 from the CMP and has been a fantastic shooter.\

I wondered if Winchester, Browning or others make a reliable “sporting” semi-auto that may be lighter than the Garand or BAR, without the bulk and full auto (I don’t want to spend the bucks for an “auto license”)

It's not the license you have to worry about. A full auto rifle costs more than a new car.
 
Do you have any "trustworthy" places to buy one? Are there "good and bad numbers" like the O3A3 or different, more/less desirable "models"? Can you suggest a good internet source?

Where are they most available: gun shows? I can't say I've seen them in gun shops but I haven't looked specifically for them.
 
a) I probably can't shoot my bolt action neck sized ammo in most other guns, especially semi-autos.
might have problems in a semiauto

b) "Standard full length resizing" would appear to be required to shoot most of my reloaded 30-06 ammunition from any gun other than my bolt action.
it would be for shooting it in a semiauto.

What would happen to the accuracy of my bolt action if I shot "small based" full length resized loads in it? I realize it's probably not a safety problem but how much accuracy am I likely to lose, if any?
probably not enough to notice as long as your o.a.l. is in the ballpark.

d) Would it be reasonable to say that all 30-06 ammo reloaded with small base dies would create the best opportunity to avoid malfunctions, smokestack or otherwise, in ANY rifle, particularly pumps and semi-autos?
it would be reasonable. it would be just as reasonable to say that proper f.l. sizing with standard base dies would provide the same opportunity to avoid malfunctions.

There’s another question that I just thought of. What powder would be best suited to both my bolt action and a semi-auto? I USED to use IMR4350/180 gr. (haven't handloaded in a while) but I wonder if that would be too dirty burning for a semi-auto and 3031 or another faster powder would be better for semi-autos.
4895 in hodgdons or i.m.r. will provide stellar performance with 150-168g bullets.

f) Will full length resizing with standard or small base dies work harden the brass more quickly that neck sizing only or full length resizing with conventional dies?
f.l. sizing with any kind of dies will slightly shorten the life of brass. ive got lake city cases that have 6-8 loadings on them so far without signs of impending failure. if your headspace is in order the necks will tell you when its time to scrap brass.

I probably wouldn’t reload to a point that I have to anneal the brass but I want the capability to reload for any of type of action—I’m just not sure how to go about it.
if you are going to have a semiauto in the fleet, and dont want to keep the ammo seperated for the different rifles, you should just full length size and moniter the stretch on your brass, but small base dies wont be required (in my opinion)

loading for a semi is no biggy, just make sure your not setting the sizing die too deep, bumping the shoulder back, and learn to check for case stretch with a paperclip (or other curved piece of wire)

i also make a point to get a feel for neck tension when loading for my m1's and if one feels light on the ram i check it out.
 
Regardless of your criteria, I feel you'd really enjoy having a Garand. Mine was $495 from the CMP and has been a fantastic shooter.\

i didnt mention this in my post above but i would definitely agree
 
I have two semi auto 30-06 sporting rifles and two bolt rifles. Hope this helps...

One of my rifles is a Remington 7400, one is a Browning BAR (the hunting rifle, not the machine gun). I also have a 1952 Winchester 70, and a Ruger Model 77 (old model with tang safety). All are 30-06 and I reload for all of them.

First: We can give you general advice based on the collective wisdom and experience of lots of owners, but each rifle is unique unto itself. You may have more or less luck with the particular rifles you own. You'll just have to buy a good rifle and see how it shoots.

Not necessarily in the order you asked:

Full length sizing and accuracy: I neck size with Lee collet die when I'm going for absolute best possible accuracy, to knock the hind end off a gnat at 300 yards (just kidding, I can't do that). But I generally full length size everything, and I manage to work up loads to get perfectly good (about 1 MOA) accuracy from every rifle, except my poor little Remington 7400 can't get 1 MOA with any ammo. I love that rifle, it just isn't a match grade rifle. Nor am I a match grade shooter on most days. The BAR and both bolt rifles are pretty good, mostly better than the shooter (me).

Beat up rims: You might get a tiny bit, but not enough to make a difference. Now my Armalite AR10 and DPMS LR308 really tear up the rims!!! on 308 ammo but that is a very different design not intended to be kind to brass. I don't get rim problems from my 7400 or BAR. It is possible that you get a bad experience if you buy a 30-06 semiauto and it tears up rims, but I doubt it.

Neck sizing: When I neck size the cases from the Ruger 77, they shoot just fine in the Winchester and the Browning, but not the Remington 7400. I guess the Rem has a shorter chamber than the Ruger and it won't take those necksized cases. If I neck size a case from the Remington, it chambers in the other three. The Ruger and Winchester bolt actions take each other's neck sized cases easily. The lesson is that you may or may not be able to shoot your neck sized bolt action ammo in your semiauto. Conventional knowledge is that most semiauto rifle owners get stretched case bodies from a semiauto during extraction, so you can count on full length sizing everything that comes out of it. But that ain't bad. I do that anyway, full length size nearly all the time.

Small base dies: These are a godsend for people who have a problem with their brass and/or their rifle, and those folks truly love them. Made in heaven for those few, mostly 223 Remington. But they are not required for the vast majority of semiauto rifles. RCBS and the others started making them a dozen years ago, but us old guys reloaded for 50 years or more before they made Small Base dies (it's too hard to tell us old guys that small base is required, when we never had 'em). They are good for a few people with a problem rifle, but not absolutely required for most everyone. If you buy a nice sporting rifle, I doubt you ever need anything more than standard dies.

Case life: Assuming you load within reasonable limits, brass cases that are neck sized MAY get several extra loadings compared to cases that are always full length sized, but we're not talking doubling or tripling case life. We're only talking about a few extra loadings. Case life is important to me (I ge just about same case life as Flyin Bryan) but it won't break my bank account if I lose a few extra loadings for the Remington or BAR. [Cases that are loaded to max or beyond and require extensive trimming are subject to shorter lives anyway. Don't confuse that with anything else. Abuse will always shorten life.]

Danger or high pressure from small base dies: No. The difference in case diameter is only 0.001 inch. Totally negligible.

Powder choice: You don't need lots of different powders for different rifles, but actually you'll have to get your new rifle and shoot it. That's the only way you can tell how your gun responds to specific powders. Chances are your new rifle works great with 4350, it's a great powder. Generally, lots of 30-06 loaders find really good performance from IMR4895 (or H equivalent), 4350 and the two other equivalents, IMR4064 is a good one, R15, R19 is a good one for heavy bullets, Ramshot Big Game, and VV N150/550. Your 4350 choice is good, I would expect that you can stick with that in any rifle.

Accuracy in general: I know we spend lots of time talking about powder choice and OAL and neck-sizing and all that. But probably nine-tenths of all accuracy is the shooter and the barrel. If those are bad, nothing else will make up the slack. If your rifle is good and you know how to shoot, these other details will help tighten up the last 10%.

Final word: Just buy a nice rifle like the BAR and shoot it. Reload and shoot some more. I kinda think we're making a bigger deal out of your questions than they are worth. BAR the sporting hunting rifle. I don't even know why anyone mentioned machine guns.
 
I have seen a lot of semi auto matic rifles gum up on the firing due to insufficiently sized reloads.

There are those who don't see a need to use small base dies for Garands or M1a's. I am going to try to show how it could make a difference.

I have 308 and 30-6 gages, cut by Gene Barnett which are a little out of the ordinary. He cut these gages with his chambering reamer. Standard cartridge headspace gages are cut with a special reamer that is wide in the middle. A standard cartridge headspace gage measures length, not “fatness”. A reamer cut headspace gage will show you if the case is too long and too “fat” for that chamber.

I have a number of 308 small base dies, and I still have my Lee standard die.

I sized a number of my match cases in the Lee die. All of them dropped in the reamer cut case gage. So, if you said you don’t need small base dies, you would be correct most of the time.

So now I had to scratch around trying to find cases that would prove my point.

These two cases are once fired range pickup brass that I found in my brass box. I had to go through about 20 cases before I found a set of really ballooned cases. On the right is the Barnett reamer cut gage.

OncefiredWRA68caseheads.gif

OncefiredWRA68unsizedincasegages.gif




If you notice one case has completed dropped into the Wilson cartridge headspace gage, while the other has not dropped into the Barnett reamer cut gage. This shows how much they have swelled up after being fired. Must have been a big chamber.

The second picture is of the fattest of the group after sizing in with Lee Die. I trimmed the thing to make sure that the case neck did not interfere with the throat in the gage.

WRAtrimmedandLeediesizedcase.gif


Hopefully you can see that the case did not drop all the way in the case gage. At least on its own. It would have taken a good hard push to get that base all the way in.

WRAsizedinLeedie.gif



This is after resizing in my RCBS small base die. I could not find the RCBS box, so the case/gage are sitting on a Redding small base box. However, that little additional sizing removed the interference fit.

WRAresizedinRCBSSmallbasedie.gif



Sometimes cases are so ballooned that even a small base die won’t reduce the case to factory dimensions. It all depends on the chamber the round was fired in.

I know it is extra effort to size cases with small base dies, if you use a good lube like Imperial Sizing wax or RCBS case lube, the effort is somewhat reduced. Still for all the extra bother involved in sizing with small base dies I'll do it for my Garands and M1a's. With those rifles I don’t want any resistance to chambering, I don’t want any delay to bolt closure. Because as the bolt stops and the lugs are turning, that darn free floating firing pin is just tapping the heck out of the primer.


Out of battery slamfires occurr in more than just Garands and M1a's,

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7180249#post7180249

Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR) Slamfire in 270 Win. Neck sized cases.
It's good to think you had the good common horse sense to ask that question. Some have assumed nothing is any different since the cartridge is what it is, 30-06 or what ever high powered rifle round, and then necked it as with their bolt actions. A man came into the gun shot I worked in with a really nice, well was a really nice Browning semi auto, I think it was chambered in 270 win., no matter. He said he had been necking for a while for that rifle without problems. I doubt he considered now and then chambering issues as problems. Either way, all it took was one slam fire to ruin his day and rifle, and fortunately not his life!
 
I'm just sayin'...

I guess it was just damn, stupid, idiotic, ignorant luck
that we survived all those decades without Small Base dies.

I just don't know how we managed to actually load and shoot.
And we did it reliably, too. Must have been stupid luck. I guess.
 
Depends on what you want and what you want it for. Battle rifle....Garand is the way to go. Sporting rifle.........my sole and singular recommendation is Browning's products. I have three of the latter...two in '06 and one in .338. I use reloads exclusively in all and have no problems whatever with properly sized cartridges. Most strongly recommend that you purchase a cartridge gauge such as Wilson's tho...that way you KNOW your ammo is proper.

Loads......well I use a slow burner in all three of mine...IMR4350 using at 165 HPBT at around 57.5 in the '06 and the .338 takes 72.0 with a 225 accubond...all three will group under an inch at a hundred. Reliability is at 100%.

Personally I'd avoid the Remingtons like the plague....all I have ever seen is failures...feeding, extraction, broken parts...ad nauseum. Far the Garand goes, well, you have to watch your powder type in terms of burn rate. It was designed for something in the vicinity of 4895 and works best there....try a slower version like 4350 and you will likely damage parts. I'm not suggesting not buying one, just bone up on proper reloading data for that gun. Far as brass goes, well, the Brownings do tend to slightly mangle rims, but not to the unusability level...then too, so does the Garand...but really that's just part of the price of doing business.

By the way, I use Dillon dies for the '06 and RCBS for the .338..........no small base.

Watch your technique and pay attention to the literature dealing with reloading for the things and you will have no problem.
 
So slam fires are least likely, or won't occur, on rounds that were f/l resized with small base dies? In other words, SB dies size "on the safe side" and prevent or minimize the possibility of slam fires?

Would this apply to commercial as well as military guns as well?
 
I think RCBS is getting the whole wrong impression of slam fires.
There are a half dozen or more causes of slam fire in semi auto rifles.

Conventional wisdom is that most occur from improperly seated primers.
But there are indeed a half dozen other causes, like frozen firing pins, etc.

I think RCBS is doing well by asking questions. That's the way we learn.
But I would encourage him to gather a library of books and other manufacturer sources on reloading.
Those are the most reliable way to get the full story.

I do not believe the statement "Slam fires are least likely, or won't occur, with small base dies"
is a correct statement, especially when you consider the other dozen or so causes.
 
Nah, it's just the classic.

The BAR is a good one (semi auto hunting rifle type, that is) and some others.

Do NOT get a Remington 742.
 
.30'06 Rifles

Browning and Remington are the only two I can think of that make a semi-auto in .30'06. Unless of course you are looking for a military surplus rifle.
 
I think Beretta has a semi auto hunting rifle in 30-06. It could have been Benelli - I just can't remember which.
 
I think RCBS is getting the whole wrong impression of slam fires.
There are a half dozen or more causes of slam fire in semi auto rifles.

Conventional wisdom is that most occur from improperly seated primers.
But there are indeed a half dozen other causes, like frozen firing pins, etc.

I do not believe the statement "Slam fires are least likely, or won't occur, with small base dies"
is a correct statement, especially when you consider the other dozen or so causes.


Yes there are more causes to slamfires than primer sensitivity. I discount mechanical problems, not because they don’t happen, but because they are not subtle.

If you have a firing pin frozen forward that defect is going to be very obvious on the first round you chamber. Jack O’Connor had a busted firing pin shaft on his 03 Springfield. If you are not familiar with the 03, the firing pin is pushed forward through the firing pin hole when the shaft breaks. The cartridge ignited as he pushed the bolt forward. The bolt blew out the receiver almost tearing his thumb off. And that was with a bolt rifle.

Back in the day when M1a’s ruled the line, and before decent AR15 trigger mechanisms, you always saw a trigger mechanism follow. Someone had tuned their trigger sear surfaces to a minimum, the sear wore with use and the rifle would double during rapid fire. Boom, boom. We usually gave the guy an alibi, the rifle would always follow before the next ten round string was finished, and after that we kicked the rifle off the line.

Mechanical problems are about as subtle as a head on collision with a Mack Truck.

Assuming your firearm is mechanically correct, reducing the chance of a slamfire is a process. With mechanisms with free floating firing pins the probability of a slamfire is never zero. As long as primer sensitivity varies, and as long as a firing pin is tapping on a primer, there is a chance that sufficient energy exists to ignite that primer.

I believe the process starts with full length sizing with small base dies. And sizing the case below the dimensions of the chamber. For guns with free floating firing pins, like Garands/M1a’s/ M1 Carbines, you want absolutely no delay to bolt turndown. If you are going to have a slamfire you want it in battery.

The next part of the process is to ream primer pockets to depth. Wayne Fatz was able to show that high primers can ignite after impact with the bolt face. Reaming primer pockets to depth greatly reduces the chance of a high primer.

Seating primers by hand and verifying that all primers are below the case head is the next step in the process.

An important part of the process is to use the least sensitive primers you can buy. There are lots of reports of slamfires in AK’s, AR’s, Garands, Carbines, FAL’s, with sensitive primers. Again that free floating firing pin is just tapping the heck out of the primer as that bolt goes forward. Less sensitive primers are less likely to ignite.

Still if you do all this, you can still have a slamfire. You have reduced that risk, you have reduced the chances of an out of battery slamfire, but given the number of reports of slamfires with factory ammunition, service rifle ammunition, only proves that XXXX happens.

Tavor 21 Slamfire video on youtube.

Notice how many rounds the guy fires. If he had a mechanical problem he would have recurring slamfires, but he did not. When you see the slamfire, notice that the finger is not on the trigger. He was running Federal American Eagle (federal primers) and Winchester ammo. Winchester redesigned their primers in 1999 to make them more sensitive.

This weapon slamfired in battery. No one was hurt. But it was uncontrolled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu8Dwj7Ey8k
 
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