Recourse in FFL transfer

[newfalguy101]

Acquisitions within 24 hours

Dispositions within 3 days ( I think ) I normally do mine at either the time of sale/transfer or the end of the day if doing a show.

Had a gun come in one time for a transfer without a signed FFL, the license was there, but, it hadnt been signed.

I immediately sent an e-mail with plans to followup with a phonecall the following day.

Got home from work, and viola' the FFL was waiting for me in my inbox, with profuse apologies from the sender.

For what its worth, if I dont have enough info to log the gun, I dont have enough info to ship the gun back either!!

All I need is the make, model, caliber of the gun and the sellers name and address or FFL license number...some guys may require more, but, all I ask for is what I Legally NEED to record

 

[22-rimfire]

Congratulations Mike4330 on getting past this ordeal. When I have had guns shipped to FFL dealers, I talk to them first and get a signed copy of their FFL which I or they fax to the seller. Nobody is in the dark. The last time was for a BP rifle that the selling dealer kept saying they needed to ship to an FFL and I told them it was not required. But to make them happy, I had a dealer friend fax their FFL and I scanned my drivers license and emailed it to them. The gun arrived at my door via UPS a few days later.

Hope you enjoy shooting your new firearm. To avoid stuff like this, when possible, I buy locally at gunshops or gunshows primarily even if I pay a little more.

 

[dogtown tom]

wgsigs:....Is there a time limit that an FFL has to log the gun in before he has to send the gun back?

newfalguy101 Acquisitions within 24 hours

Actually CFR478.125 (e) says the dealer must log the acquisition by close of business the next day.....unless there are other commercial records that have all of the information that the bound book would require. If such a commercial record is available then the dealer may delay recording that firearm in his bound book for no more than seven days ( CFR478.125 (g) ).
See http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div5&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3&idno=27#27:3.0.1.2.3.8.1.6

Example 1: Dealer goes to gunshow and acquires fireams on a Saturday morning. He can record all required information on the firearms he acquires and does not need to log them into his bound book until he returns to his premises. His bound book never leaves his licensed premises and he violates no laws. He has seven days to catch up on his paperwork.

Example 2: Dealer receives a firearm at 10am on a Friday. His business hours are Monday-Friday 8-5, he is not required to record that firearm until Monday afternoon prior to 5pm. (THIS according to my ATF IOI. He said "by close of business the next business day"....next business day is not mentioned in the CFR.)

 

[makarovnik]

I'd tell them they have 24hrs to get it ready or you'll be calling the ATF. Do you really need to threaten people to get stuff done? Hell yeah. It has always worked for me. I love it when people say " You don't have to get excited or make threats". I say "apparently I do". I'm a nice guy and pretty patient and forgiving but enough is enough already.

 

[bayhawk2]

I always said the best and the worst advertisement is by word of mouth.
Sounds like this FFL dealer is getting his 15 minutes of shame?
I ran into a similar surprise here.Been telling everyone I can to
stay away from this guy.A business that does not take care of
business usually goes out of business.

 

[Jolly Rogers]

Mike 4330...you don't have to name the FFL but could you give the location of the shop...like Chantilly, or Newington/Ft. Belvoir, Ashburn or Stafford? (That burned out store front in Woodbridge?) I do not know of any other ranges in No Va and I would like to find more as options to shoot.
Joe

 

[danprkr]

mcdonl +1

Catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

 

[22-rimfire]

To the threat makers... I try not to make threats EVER. I would never involve the ATF. I would rather loose the money. There is no law which says the dealer has to make the transfer in 1-day or 5-days. The dealer made the transfer.

I still have not seen any real issue here under the circumstances involved. Buyer did not follow accepted protocol. With the information presented, I don't think the local FFL dealer did anything improper or outside the bounds of normal business protocol.

You know nothing about the buyer other than what he said. The dealer may well have been unwilling to sell a gun period to him. The local dealer may have been a little slow under normal circustances. Again, you weren't there.

I support my local businesses and I usually buy locally even if I pay more. I appreciate the fact that they are available and I use their services when I need them. If you think you can do it better, take the risk and open your own gunshop and get a FFL.

I'm glad it worked out. I suspected it would.

 

[mgmorden]

I think all the talk of getting the ATF involved was WAY premature. It had been a few days, not weeks or anything.

Realistically, I can't fault the OP too much because as he said he was new to the process and interpreted the system to mean that he didn't need to contact the transferring agent ahead of time. I'll admit that the first gun I ever bought online I bought from Davidson's and I didn't contact the transferring agent either.

That said, at this point I know, and the OP should now know, that it's very, very wise to always let the transferring FFL know something is on the way. My emails are usually incredibly brief basically just something like "Hey I've had a few guns transferred by you in the past. I'm about to order a blah blah from Buds/Gunbroker/whatever and wanted to make sure you could transfer it".

 

[awgrizzly]

It sounds like the FFL holder uses the gun range for his business address and is not there everyday, or was busy elsewhere, thus "the gun wasn't ready". Not knowing the law, I assume he's the one that must receive the gun, log and transfer it. I also assume that the time in which he is required starts when he personally takes possession of the gun, not when it was delivered to the gun range. If he had been notified by the op he would have been expecting it and this whole thing might not have happened.

We're talking about a few days delay. I wouldn't expect better from my FFL, who is often busy out of town giving gun training. When the op finally met with the FFL everything was cleared up. This should have been the first thing he did. Until then all this bruha, talk of contacting ATF, and sending gun back was unnecessary. Even if the FFL was being a jerk, it's still no reason to over react (lots of jerks in the world).

 

[nalioth]

I also assume that the time in which he is required starts when he personally takes possession of the gun, not when it was delivered to the gun range.

The time starts when the gun arrives at the licensed premises.

 

[Onward Allusion]

mike4330
Well folks, I visited the shop this am and showed profuse contrition for my sins and everyone was very nice about it and they were nice enough to actually transfer my firearm to me.

Thanks again to everyone!

Mike - Strictly as a FYI and perhaps a note to all new gun purchasers over the Internet, 4 days between the time your gun is received by your FFL to the time it is in your hands is not out of the ordinary.

I'm sure there will be those who will tell you that they receive their gun the very next day or even the same day as it was delivered. However, I can assure you that it is not the norm. Yes, the FFL holder has to log the gun within 24 hours, but I don't think there is required amount of time for them to place the gun in your hands. I have purchased many many firearms over the Internet and some of them took a good week before it ended up in my hands. This is not just from one FFL Holder but a good half-dozen of them.

The best thing to do is to call the FFL and speak to a live person.

 

[dogtown tom]

Onward Allusion Strictly as a FYI and perhaps a note to all new gun purchasers over the Internet, 4 days between the time your gun is received by your FFL to the time it is in your hands is not out of the ordinary.

I'm sure there will be those who will tell you that they receive their gun the very next day or even the same day as it was delivered. However, I can assure you that it is not the norm.

I make it a business policy to contact my customers within an hour of the firearm arriving to let them know my availability for a transfer. My "real" job is schoolteacher, so the firearms business has to occur after 5pm. I'm almost always available M-F 5-10pm and by appointment on weekends.

The reason I became an FFL was due to my former dealer failing to return emails, phone calls and waiting eleven days (after delivery) to return my calls about completing that transfer. He is no longer an FFL btw.

Last Tuesday afternoon, three guns arrive. Within twenty minutes I have emailed my three customers notifying them that their firearm has arrived and that they should contact me to schedule a transfer. I mention that I was not available that evening but would be able to schedule them for transfers beginning Wednesday.

Less than ten minutes later I get an email from one customer chewing me out for not being available that day to process his transfer. Seems the seller told him tracking info so the buyer knew it would arrive on Tuesday.....so he took the evening off work. He ranted about my poor customer service, lack of communication and how I should have told him I wasn't available Tuesday afternoon and evening and generally acted like a spoiled brat. Somehow, I was born without psychic abilities and did not know he planned on taking the day off, much less that his package was due to arrive on Tuesday.

In over 1300 firearm transactions this is the only customer to complain about getting his firearm promptly. He got notified of delivery within twenty minutes and was able to pick it up the next day for a $10 transfer fee..........yeah....he's a teacher and gets a discount. I may decline his business in the future.

 

[MattTheHat]

Sounds to me like the receiving FFL was simply trying to calibrate their customer. I'm sure they prefer to be notified before the transfer takes place, for whatever reason. Mike didn't do that and it sounds to me like they felt the need to make sure he understood this wasn't the way they liked to do things.

I'd find another FFL for future transfers, and I'd contact them before making the purchase, as I think most FFLs would prefer this route. I'd also contact Bud's and let them know that the FFL in question claims they know nothing about being in Bud's "preferred network".

Whatever the case, I'm glad it finally worked out for you, Mike. BTW, welcome to THR. Maybe I missed it, but you could also tell us what you got if you like. Pictures are always welcomed, by the way. (It's not bragging, it's "sharing".)


-Matt

 

[kingpin008]

I'd tell them they have 24hrs to get it ready or you'll be calling the ATF. Do you really need to threaten people to get stuff done? Hell yeah.

Yeah, let's involve a government agency that is no friend to gun owners and FFLs and is known for heavy-handed and capricious interpretations and enforcement of firearms laws because you didn't get your gun the very second you wanted it. That's a great idea.

Also, even if you DID call the ATF, there are situations (such as has been posted above) where the FFL has longer than 24 hours to complete the logging in/transfer. So what then? Because you can't be bothered to actually work with the dealer, you sic the Gov't on them?

It always amazes me how many gun owners are willing to involve Big Brother at the drop of a hat, when a little patience and people skills will solve the problem just as easily. The ATF is NOT here to help you, or to go easy on the FFL. And even a slow FFL is preferrable to none at all.

The bottom line is this - the FFL dragged their feet, but the OP botched things a bit on his end too. All is well now, and it all got sorted out without the help of the F-Troop. Imagine that.

 

[nalioth]

I'd tell them they have 24hrs to get it ready or you'll be calling the ATF. Do you really need to threaten people to get stuff done? Hell yeah.

Yeah, let's involve a government agency that is no friend to gun owners and FFLs and is known for heavy-handed and capricious interpretations and enforcement of firearms laws because you didn't get your gun the very second you wanted it. That's a great idea.

So just let the dealer keep it as long as they want, then?

 

[DammitBoy]

I deal with only one FFL in my town for online purchases. He faxes his FFL info within minutes of me telling him about the deal. He calls me within minutes of receiving my purchase. He only charges me $20 for the transfer. I usually spend the next 30 min. shooting the crap with him and looking at what he has in the shop.

I've tranferred more guns through his shop than I have bought from him directly. I think I've bought 4-5 guns from him directly, in the past 8 years. He always greets me warmly by name and shakes my hand enthusiastically. Whenever I see him at the gunshows, he goes out of his way to be friendly - even though I've never bought from him at a gunshow. He calls me up if he finds a gun he thinks I'm interested in - I have bought one gun from him out of a dozen cold calls. This is what good customer service is and why I recommend him to all my shooting buddies.

The other two shops in town will do online transfers if they do not already carry the gun in question. They charge $50 for transfers. They ignore me when I come into their shops, even though I have bought several guns from both of them in the past. They wouldn't know my name if it was written on my forehead in magic marker.

Consequently, I do as little business with them as possible.

 

[kingpin008]

So just let the dealer keep it as long as they want, then?

Of course not. But there's a long way between "something wierd is going on here" and summoning the Goon Squad.

 

[rbartet]

So what's a guy do when the ffl has had your gun for almost 3 weeks and doesn't return emails or phone calls?

 

[Scimmia]

So what's a guy do when the ffl has had your gun for almost 3 weeks and doesn't return emails or phone calls?

Is this an individual or a shop? As was brought up earlier in this thread, were they notified ahead of time? If it's a shop, stop in and see what they say. Sometimes things in life get in the way, for all you know, the guy could be in the hospital or something.

Reading this makes me even happier with my FFL. $10 transfers and will do it within an hour of recieving the package. My roommate had a gun arrive completely disassembled and the guy inspected everything to make sure it was all there and in good shape and reassembled it before we got there two hours after the package arrived.

 

[rbartet]

Individual. He was notified prior to the gun being placed on his door step. He even has a cool. Online system that lets you know when you firearm is ready to be picked up. So my gun was ready so I gave him a call. Said he was going fishing for the weekend. Not a big deal to wait a couple days. Called him a few days later. No return called. Emailed him nothing. He is not in the hospital, he is posting on Facebook. Posted on his wall saying I was trying to set up a time to pick up. He deletes the post. First time doing an online buy. Not happy. He was notified prior sending was and ffl and sent his copy with the gun.

 

[Scimmia]

Wow, so the guy's actively avoiding you. This could be a situation where you need to get the authorities involved.

Maybe he dropped it in the lake on that fishing trip.

 

[oneounceload]

Maybe, to all of those complaining, you should buy your next gun from your LOCAL dealer so you can have that spoiled-brat, instantaneous self-gratification..............

 

[rbartet]

Bout many a guns local. But for this purchase the price difference is over 200 that includes shipping and transfer fee. 3 weeks is instant gratification lol

 

[Grey_Mana]

fyi: complaining to the ATF won't get you your gun faster, and may freeze the transfer indefinitely while the transaction is under review.

Do what you would do for any other product not delivered on time: see if complaining to local government can get him to serve his customers better, take him to small claims court, etc.