Red Dot, 9mm, and Case Fill

[Tony k]

I was planning on testing Red Dot with some 115gr Hornady HAP bullets.

Plan was to test between 4.1 and 4.5 grains based on Alliant data from 2002 and 2004 (thanks RC Model and BDS), and seat bullet to 1.075"

However, this powder seems very low density, and even 4.1 grains fills the case to the point where it will be in full contact with the bullet. 4.5 might be a compressed load?

This seems like a watch out situation, or at least a situation that raises eyebrows.

Case in pic is blazer brass.

I need verification that I'm not making an obvious mistake. Thank you.

 

[rpenmanparker]

Damn, I thought this thread was going to be about red dots.

 

[Tony k]

Damn, I thought this thread was going to be about red dots.

Red hots you say? Excellent candy!

Oh wait...I'm derailing my own thread...

 

[Walkalong]

That won't be compressed enough to worry about, assuming it is a safe charge weight for the 115 Gr bullets @ 1.075 OAL.

Is that 4.1 or 4.5 in the case? Either way, it's nothing to worry about.

 

[rpenmanparker]

Red hots you say? Excellent candy!

Oh wait...I'm derailing my own thread...

 

[Tony k]

That won't be compressed enough to worry about, assuming it is a safe charge weight for the 115 Gr bullets @ 1.075 OAL.

Is that 4.1 or 4.5 in the case? Either way, it's nothing to worry about.

Thanks Walkalong.

That's 4.1 grains.

By my measurements, 1.075" oal seats the bullet .215" into the case.

1.075" is out of Hornady manual, and it just so happens to pass the plunk test for the pistol I plan to test these loads in.

 

[LiveLife]

Let's calculate max case fill for 1.075" OAL using 0.538" for Hornady 115 gr HAP bullet length (Let me know if your measurement is different).

OAL 1.075" - Bullet length 0.538" = 0.537"

Average resized case length 0.750" - 0.537" = 0.213"

I measured out 0.213" on my calipers and locked and marked the inside of case with tip of caliper. When filled to mark, I got 3.7 gr of Red Dot.

So 3.7 gr of Red Dot is your max case fill. But as Walkalong posted, since Red Dot is "fluffy" powder, even 4.1 gr won't be compressed too much but you can work up to 4.1 gr in increment like 3.8 gr and 4.0 gr.


2004 Alliant load data doesn't list 115 gr JHP but lists max charge of 4.5 gr for 125 gr Lead bullet (I am thinking RN) loaded to 1.150" OAL

125 gr Lead Red Dot OAL 1.150" Max 4.5 gr (1145 fps) 32,000 PSI

Lyman #49 does list load for 120 gr lead RN loaded to 1.065"

120 gr Lead RN Red Dot OAL 1.065" Start 3.0 gr (919 fps) 25,100 CUP - Max 3.9 gr (1140 fps) 32,000 CUP

Since we could reference load data for slightly heavier bullet (this case lead load data) and you are using HAP (XTP without expansion cuts) which gets seated deeper than RN, you could start at 3.6 gr and test 3.8 gr and 4.0 gr.

 

[Galil5.56]

Looks really good from here.

Never used much Red Dot for 9mm aside from some cast, but like Unique and other Hercules/Alliant propellants, love the bulkiness. Look forward to your report.

 

[LiveLife]

I like Red Dot for 9mm.

For 115 gr FMJ/RN plated bullets, currently I use Promo (With Red Dot load data by weight) 4.0-4.2 gr loaded to 1.125"-1.130" and recoils slightly less than Winchester white box. For 4.2-4.4 gr, I use 1.130"-1.135" which recoils comparable to Winchester white box.

But these are not light 9mm loads, more like near max loads (I push 115 gr FMJ/RN to near max load data for greater accuracy).

For OP with 115 gr JHP that gets seated deeper, I would work up from lighter charges.

 

[Dudedog]

If I remember correctly HAPs are .356 not .355, Alliant lists 4.5 as a MAX with a 115 FMJ.
MAX -10% would give you 4gr for a start but I would back off a bit from that for the slightly larger bullet dia and the shorter OAL you will most likely need with the HAP.

Promo is generally considered to = RD by weight

This is a plated 124 also slightly larger than .355 call it .3555 with Promo not RD
String: 4
Date: 8/14/2016
Time: 8:51:12 AM
Grains: 124
Hi Vel: 1004
Low Vel: 971
Ave Vel: 987.6
Ext Spread: 33
Std Dev: 15.4
9mm RMR Target HP 124gr 1.095 3.7 Promo
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
991 122.884 270.378
1004 124.496 277.518
971 120.404 259.574
1000 124 275.311
972 120.528 260.109

Alliant 05 lists 4.6gr with a 125 FMJ @1.15 1165 FPS (?? MAX for a 125 higher than the 115????)

 

[Tony k]

Since we could reference load data for slightly heavier bullet (this case lead load data) and you are using HAP (XTP without expansion cuts) which gets seated deeper than RN, you could start at 3.6 gr and test 3.8 gr and 4.0 gr.

.

This is the Crux of it. Thanks BDS. I was overlooking this fundamental difference in how much of the case gets filled by the bullet. I guess Ill do 3.6, 3.8, 4.0,....and 4.1

 

[Galil5.56]

Boy, you should see what a max charge of Unique looks like (maybe you have)... I used mid 90's Hercules/Alliant data at the same time with 124 grain bullets, and it was hard to even get the 6.2 grain charge in the case. Talk about a lot of compression, but of course all was well, and they were STOUT. Tested to over 1200 fps, accurate, and the manual says 31,300 psi. Not bad for a propellant that has been around since 1899.

 

[Galil5.56]

If I remember correctly HAPs are .356 not .355, Alliant lists 4.5 as a MAX with a 115 FMJ.
MAX -10% would give you 4gr for a start but I would back off a bit from that for the slightly larger bullet dia and the shorter OAL you will most likely need with the HAP.

Promo is generally considered to = RD by weight

This is a plated 124 also slightly larger than .355 call it .3555 with Promo not RD
String: 4
Date: 8/14/2016
Time: 8:51:12 AM
Grains: 124
Hi Vel: 1004
Low Vel: 971
Ave Vel: 987.6
Ext Spread: 33
Std Dev: 15.4
9mm RMR Target HP 124gr 1.095 3.7 Promo
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
991 122.884 270.378
1004 124.496 277.518
971 120.404 259.574
1000 124 275.311
972 120.528 260.109

Alliant 05 lists 4.6gr with a 125 FMJ @1.15 1165 FPS (?? MAX for a 125 higher than the 115????)

View attachment 831196

Yeah, interesting, ain't it? I asked something similar concerning Alliant data about 12 years ago, that you may find interesting.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/explain-this-load-data.325464/

Black magic I tell ya.

 

[exbrit49]

Been using 4.1 grains of Red Dot behind 124G LRN. Great load andvery accurate, Just a little dirty as is usual with Red Dot. No pressure signs and chrono well within normal limits. .
Been used in 8 different models with excellent results,

 

[Galil5.56]

Tony, I wanted to ask you - Do you load calibers like .45 Auto, .44 Mag, .44 Special, .38 Special with cast bullets?... I ask because I have found Red Dot to work extremely well in these and others (30/06 cast), by virtue of its burn rate, load density and seemingly position insensitivity. My most accurate .44 mag and .44 Special cast loads have used Red Dot. Love it.

 

[Tony k]

Tony, I wanted to ask you - Do you load calibers like .45 Auto, .44 Mag, .44 Special, .38 Special with cast bullets?... I ask because I have found Red Dot to work extremely well in these and others (30/06 cast), by virtue of its burn rate, load density and seemingly position insensitivity. My most accurate .44 mag and .44 Special cast loads have used Red Dot. Love it.

I load for 45auto with lead once in a while. Just sold all my 38/357 equipment since I don't have that caliber any more. Maybe that's the best use of this powder for me.

Thanks for the idea Galil.

 

[Starter52]

My experience with Red Dot and the 9 mm is exactly the same as exbrit49. Thousands of rounds loaded with 4.1 grains RD and a 124 grain bullet. Never a problem.

 

[Tony k]

If I remember correctly HAPs are .356 not .355, Alliant lists 4.5 as a MAX with a 115 FMJ.
MAX -10% would give you 4gr for a start but I would back off a bit from that for the slightly larger bullet dia and the shorter OAL you will most likely need with the HAP.

And I also didn't think of diameter. Thanks!

 

[Tony k]

My experience with Red Dot and the 9 mm is exactly the same as exbrit49. Thousands of rounds loaded with 4.1 grains RD and a 124 grain bullet. Never a problem.

Once I get done experimenting with these HAPs, I'll be moving on to some RMR 124 Matchwinners. I'll give it a try!

 

[LiveLife]

If I remember correctly HAPs are .356 not .355

And I also didn't think of diameter. Thanks!

Very good point to consider. But 115 gr HAP I have on hand are sized .355" while 124 gr HAP are sized .356" - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...re-sized-the-same.818806/page-2#post-10567453

Yeah, interesting, ain't it? I asked something similar concerning Alliant data about 12 years ago

Yes, 9mm bullets can come sized from .354", .355", .3555", .356" and can have significant affect on chamber pressure at the top end of load data - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4

Current Alliant load data lists the bullet brand/type used (So we could verify bullet sizing) but older load data did not list the bullet brand/type used so we can't determine the diameter of bullet or bullet seating depth so I tend to start with more conservative start/max charges for initial load development.

 

[Tony k]

Yep. My HAPs are .355".

It's good to check though.

Just finished loading work ups. 3.4, 3.6, 3.8, 4.0, and 4.1.

Going to test them today hopefully.

 

[LiveLife]

Great. Look forward to your range report.

My guess is 3.6/3.8 gr will start to reliably cycle the slide and 4.0/4.1 gr will produce smaller groups.

 

[Tony k]

I'm tired of the snow. got stuck trying to get to the *actual* range, so I made do with a different location. I tested 115 HAP (oal 1.075" over 4 different powders. I'll cover just the Red Dot.

Mixed cases
Winchester Small Pistol Primers
115gr Hornady HAP 1.075" oal
Red Dot Powder
Kahr CM9 (3" barrel)
5 rounds per test

3.4 grains
Average Velocity: 916

3.6 grains
Average Velocity: 945

3.8 grains
Average Velocity: 968

4.0 grains
Average Velocity: 995

4.1 grains
Average Velocity: 999

No target pics because I just shot at a piece of firewood stuffed into the snowbank since I wasn't at the actual range.

All cycled the action properly, but I don't think the 3.4 or 3.6 would cycle the action on my G19 or MP9 full size.

I'd feel comfortable going a few tenths higher, but probably won't.

Moderately dirty cases at all charge levels. Cleaner than the bullseye loads I tested, but dirtier than the W231 and Zip.

Overall, I'd say Red Dot is a fine powder for making lower recoil loads. Its case-filling nature is a nice safety characteristic for volume reloading. It seems to meter about average. Better than unique, 800x and 700x, but not as good as power pistol, etc.

Next time I'll load up 25 @4.1grains and test for accuracy, etc...

 

[LiveLife]

 

[Galil5.56]

Thanks for the ballistic report, and commentary Tony, it's appreciated.