Red Dot, 9mm, MBC 125 gr SmallBall load advice

[1KPerDay]

I've searched several sources. The older alliant info I found has a 125 grain lrn load with 4.5 grains red dot and an OAL of 1.15.

I was thinking of starting at 4.0 gr red dot and work up to 4.5, keeping the OAL around 1.1ish and not exceeding 1.15 (assuming that chambers in my pistols reliably. Anyone see any potential issues with that?

thanks

 

[LiveLife]

1KPerDay, SmallBall has more rounded nose profile to increase the length of bearing surface and will require shorter than typical OAL of more pointed nose bullets. If your barrel has longer leade, OAL out to 1.125" will work, but if your barrel has shorter leade, then you may need to use shorter than 1.100" OAL. Do a barrel drop test and feed/chamber test from the magazine to confirm.

Although my pistols/barrels will feed out to 1.125" OAL, I typically load to 1.100" OAL to work in most other pistols/barrels.

I did range test with MBC 125 gr RN (SmallBall) and Promo using Red Dot load data on this thread (Alliant's website states to use Promo with Red Dot load data by weight) - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=6480163#post6480163

125 gr RN (Missouri Bullet - SmallBall) and Glock 27 with Lone Wolf barrel:

3.8/4.0 gr Promo with 1.09"/1.10" OAL:

9mm Promo loads were all accurate. Recoil was firm/snappy with spent cases landing behind me and to the right.

7-10 yard groups averaged 1"-2"
15 yard groups averaged 2"-3"

4.2 gr Promo at 1.08"/1.10" OAL:

5 yard groups averaged 1" with one 3/4" group
7 yard groups averaged 1.5"

 

[kingmt]

Nope. You may want to start at 4 &work down first tho. I would anyways.

 

[LiveLife]

Nope. You may want to start at 4 &work down first tho.

Why?

2004 Alliant load data shows 4.5 gr of Red Dot as max for 125 gr lead bullet.

10% reduction would be 4.1 gr as start charge. I did the work up from 3.8 gr using Promo as I was using shorter OAL of 1.080"/1.100".

 

[1KPerDay]

Thank you very much, as always.

 

[kingmt]

Why?

Because it burns so clean & works so good that I bet he may like something around 3.5gr or even less.

Has nothing to do with max load or I wouldn't have said he wouldn't have a problem with his plan. Since I said work down it couldn't envolve saftey ether.

 

[1KPerDay]

Maybe I'll start at 3.6 or 3.7 and go up from there.

 

[kingmt]

I don't know how strong the recoil spring is in yours is why I said work down but I bet 3.6 would still be fine.

 

[1KPerDay]

Well after charging a few at 4.0 grains I don't think I'll be going up from there... 4 grains barely leaves room for the bullet, and I'd wager the bottom of the 125 grain LRNs I"m loading is touching the powder.

I think I'll back up and start at 3.5 or 3.6 as you suggest. I double-checked and weighed each charge to make sure but 4.0 looks to be quite a bit in these cases... I imagine 4.5 might actually be a compressed charge and I'm not going to try it.

The OAL on the first few I had set at 1.10... I may try some at 1.15 but as BDS says they are kinda short pills.

If I eventually get some Promo when I run out of Red Dot I may try higher than 4.0 grains (as Promo has the same burn characteristics per charge weight as Red Dot but is not as bulky, so the charge volume will be less, at least that's what I understand) but in the meantime no way.

BTW it seems my initial research and the forum's help in determining that Red Dot is one of the bulkier powders by weight and would help prevent double charges was correct... it would be impossible to miss a double charge of red dot in 9mm; it would overflow the case.

 

[LiveLife]

1KPerDay, good point as Promo and Red Dot may not fill the case as same (Alliant just says to use the Red Dot load data by weight for Promo). Keep in mind that Promo/Red Dot are bulky flake powders that "fluff" quite a bit and will settle.

Well, I did some measuring of Promo and MBC 125 gr RN (SmallBall) and it looks good. Due to shorter/rounder profile of the bullet that increases the bearing surface length meant to better stabilize the bullet in barrel/flight, using the shorter OAL of 1.100" here are the break down:

OAL - 1.100"
Length of resized case - 0.750"
Bullet length - 0.565"

That means 0.565" - (1.100"-0.750") = 0.215" of bullet base gets seated inside the case neck. The picture below of 4.0 gr of Promo inside the case shows the powder is 0.260" below top (and 4.4 gr is 0.220" below top). So, 4.0-4.4 gr of Promo should be fine with 1.100" OAL using MBC 125 gr RN (SmallBall) to not compress the powder. If 3.8-4.0 gr charges work for your pistol, it produced accurate shot groups for me.

 

[evan price]

4.0 of Promo and 125-LRN works great for me @ 1.125" oal.

 

[LiveLife]

I'd wager the bottom of the 115 grain LRNs I"m loading is touching the powder.

The OP said 125 gr but if you are using even shorter 115 gr bullet, I won't worry about the bullet touching/compressing the powder.

BTW it seems my initial research and the forum's help in determining that Red Dot is one of the bulkier powders by weight and would help prevent double charges was correct... it would be impossible to miss a double charge of red dot in 9mm; it would overflow the case.

Definitely! Even the double charge of lighter 3.8 gr would overflow the case.

 

[evan price]

double tapped, sry.

 

[1KPerDay]

Sorry, you're correct... I"m using 125 grain MBC smallball. My fingers default to 115 when talking about 9mm.

Thanks for all the info.

 

[1KPerDay]

I could also use your input on this issue.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7678825#post7678825

 

[LiveLife]

When we resize spent cases, inside diameter of the case will be smaller than the diameter of the bullets.

During seating of the bullets, this will cause slight "bulging" of brass at the base of the bullet, which is normal and indicates good neck tension with the seated bullet.

In reference to taper crimp and chambering, I usually find measurement at the bulge same or smaller than the taper crimp I use (.020" + diameter of the bullet), so if I have any failure to fully chamber issues, I will look at the taper crimp/OAL as chambers are usually flared towards the ramp end.

 

[1KPerDay]

When you say you look at taper crimp, do you mean you increase the crimp? Do you think mine will be a problem as is?

 

[LiveLife]

I am kinda OCD for accuracy and will take whatever advantage can apply to my loads. With taper crimp, I want the most amount of taper crimp that will chamber freely to seal the case neck with the chamber when the powder ignites.

If .020" over the diameter of the bullet will chamber well, that's the maximum taper crimp I will apply. If this amount of taper crimp won't fully chamber the finished round, I will apply more taper crimp until it does (of course, this is taking into consideration that OAL of round is not hitting the rifling).

 

[1KPerDay]

Cool. Thanks again.

 

[1KPerDay]

Follow up for those interested:

9mm Parabellum Mixed brass/CCI SPP/Missouri Bullet Company 125 grain “Small Ball” LRN. Sized .358-.359. Loaded in Lee Classic Turret, Lee deluxe dies. Brass/primers all look good. COAL 1.10”. No malfunctions. Smoky indoors but no leading to speak of.
All groups fired from 30 feet, seated from an improvised rest.

SIG P226 (barrel slugged .357)
3.6. gr. Red Dot. Light recoil. Groups (subtracting bullet diameter) averaged 2.465 (4 groups)
3.8 grains Red Dot. Nice recoil. 1.61” avg. (4 groups)
4.0 grains Red Dot. Stronger recoil. 2.14” avg. (3 groups)

Beretta 92FS (barrel slugged .357)
3.6. gr. Red Dot. Light recoil. Groups (subtracting bullet diameter) averaged 2.85” (4 groups)
3.8 gr. Red Dot. Nice recoil. 2.24” avg. (4 groups)
4.0 gr. Red Dot. Firm recoil. 2.84 avg. (3 groups)

 

[popper]

Check your chamber for taper when using the MBC smallball, some are more tapered than others. That will possible change the OAL and amount of crimp, for proper HS.

 

[1KPerDay]

How does one check the chamber for taper?

 

[LiveLife]

9mm ... Missouri Bullet Company 125 grain “Small Ball” LRN. Sized .358-.359 ... barrel slugged .357

I think you may have gotten some wrong sized bullets. I grabbed several random "SmallBall" bullets out of two different boxes and they were all sized .356" using both of my calipers. But if your barrels' groove diameters are .357" then I would say you got the right sized bullets!

 

[1KPerDay]

Yep, they work out of my pistols. I contacted MBC and they say they think they may have sized a batch at .358" for a particular request and maybe got them mixed up. They were going to send me a prepaid return shipment label and ship me some .356 ones but after I slugged my bores at .357" I told MBC I'd like to keep the .358 ones and I'd be happy to pay for any replacements that had already been sent.

I never heard back after that and never got shipped the replacements, which is fine by me as these look like they're going to work fine, at least in my pistols.

 

[LiveLife]

Your case should serve as an example to many to slug their barrels first BEFORE ordering lead bullets as shooting typical sized lead bullets in oversized barrels will cause leading and decreased accuracy ... even keyholing.

Glad things worked out for you.

My PT145's barrel is oversized at .456"+ and I was getting leading with erratic shot groups even at 7 yards. Not sure if you can get .457"-.458" sized bullets, but I wanted to have one sized bullets for all my 45 pistols. Fortunately for me, softer MBC 12 BHN (Bullseye #1) bullet bases deformed enough (even for the light 4.0 gr Promo plinking load for 200 gr SWC) to seal with the oversized barrel and accuracy returned.