Red Dot or Mounted Light?

[lbmii]

For home defense I mounted an inexpensive Red Dot 1X scope on my Mossberg 590 A1 DA. I have done some considerable practice with 8" falling plates as well as low light shooting with and without the Red Dot scope. It is very apparent that my speed and precision is somewhat greater with the Red Dot than without.

A common occurrence in my area is the problem of armed home invasion. Generally the home invasion is committed by a group of two or three men armed with stolen weapons. Often these weapons are shotguns. The home invaders tend to charge in all at once.

My thought is that a mounted light or laser will in effect become a "shoot here" sign. I have instead opted for fluorescent night-lights placed in areas that have a high probability of forced entry. The lights are pointed away from my likely locations.

Please comment on pro and cons of Red Dot verses a Mounted Light or Laser.

 

[Cameron Lamont]

Where is it that these three guys are charging around bursting into houses?

Perhaps it is time for a vacation until the police find them somewhere...

C

 

[nhhillbilly]

White light

White light is much better. You can use it as an aiming devise in a pinch. Also more important you can identify your theat prior to using deadly force.

 

[MrMurphy]

Not to mention a SureFire dedicated fore-end while lighting up and identifying your target, generally blinds them (having been on the business end of a SureFire, I can attest to that!) for several seconds. Blink, identify, BANG move.

 

[lbmii]

Yes home invasion is quite common in Southeastern Kansas City Missouri. It is not issolated to just one group.

 

[Fred Fuller]

If it works for you, it's fine by me.

That said:

There are two eras in defensive firearms technology in my opinion: BT and AT. That would be 'Before Tritium' and 'After Tritium'. Tritium elements fit in normal sights on any shotgun, be they bead, rifle type, AO express type, or ghost ring. Therefore they do not raise new profiles on the firearm, that is to say thay do not add new protuberances to get knocked awry while moving about in adrenal-enhanced circumstances.

Tritium elements do not require batteries, or functioning electronic circuitry. Mr. Murphy just LOVES batteries and electronics. Tritium runs for years and years with no attention. I have known people who managed to crack tritium vials in sights during the course of severe adrenal-enhanced movement, but fewer of them than the fingers of one hand could number.

The only shotgun I ever had any use for a laser on was a pistol grip only shortie that I used in a security deal for a while. I don't like lasers. JMHO, YMMV.

I definitely think a white light should be present on a HD shotgun. SureFires are OK, my present preference is for the M3 since it will work acceptably well on the carbine, the 3d generation Glock 19 or the Remington 870. One lives on the carbine and the 870.

Your tactic with the night lights is a good one assuming you have established a 'bunker position' behind the bed or some other substantial furniture or architectural feature where you can observe the door to the bedroom from cover. 'Cover' in this case does not mean concealment, it means protection from incoming fire. If your intent is to move about the house alone during any potential armed encounter, you should rethink that decision carefully.

A lot of decisions about things like this are based on individual preferences, training, and experience. Unfortunately a lot of decisions are based on unrealistic expectations, no experience, gunrag/gunstore commando information etc. as well. Care should be taken to be as objective as possible in determining what tactics and equipment will be employed on an individual basis. Evaluating threats and circumstances is a core part of the process.

Buying and adding accessories will not contribute to a shooter's skill set- understanding the capabilities and limitations of the HD shotgun, practicing good practices, and practicing realistically, WILL do that. Any accessories should enhance available skills and should be as reliable as the shotgun to which they are attached.

Stay safe, y'all

lpl

 

[lbmii]

Yes, I agree with the Tritium sights as probably being the best. What I ran into though was the costs involved in adding a front and rear sight to my particular shotgun was prohibitive. I went ahead and bought a cheap Wal-Mart red dot with the whole idea of using it for slug use during dear hunting. Once I tried it my thoughts really changed. I keep both eyes open and when I shoulder the weapon I am right inline with the red point. Sight acquisition and target alignment is much faster that any method I have tried before. A red dot is for me as quick as non-sight intrinsic point shooting combined with the accuracy of conventional sight use. It is speed and precision together.

I have noticed that many law enforcement agencies are equipping their shoulder arms with red dot scopes. Until I tried it myself I scoffed at the idea.

The last month my brother was in the Marines they were issuing red dot scopes on an experimental basis. I see that it is now pretty much standard in the military. I also understand from my brother's Marine contacts that our radical Islamic friends (the religion of peace) fear the hell out of the well-aimed fire from the Americans.

 

[CZ52GUY]

My Mossy has the Surefire forend and a Red Dot on a Weaver mount. For this shotty, Red Dot OR Light is Red Dot AND Light.

My Winchester 1300 has a tritium front sight and I'll be adding a Surefire forend when the budget permits.

As to white light = "shoot here", it's a question of tactics and tolerance for liability/risk. One school of thought is that white light is an invitation for incoming fire, don't bother. The other school says that the 4 rules still apply to an armed encounter...you need to verify your target...you need to verify (even when there is incoming fire you wish to return) that an innocent isn't in the path of your outbound fire, making the white light an essential tool for target verification. From a liability perspective, some say that failure to verify target prior to outbound fire is an invitation for a law suit or even criminal charges in some locales. In a home defense scenario, I'm more inclined to be concerned with target verfication than future legal entanglements...but the benefit of one provides collateral benefit to the other.


Safe shooting,

CZ52'

 

[tango3065]

If that gun is for home defense I strongly urge you to take that off, reason being in the middle of the night when bg walks in you won't have time to get that dot on him. Open sight in fast situations would work much better, point and shoot. Now if you are going to use that for turkeys, you have a good setup with the proper choke.

 

[Coronach]

I'm of the 'Rule 4 always applies' school.

If it is a 'serious' shotgun, intended for use in darkness, either it needs a light, or you need to have some alternative method of illumination of your target.

Mike

 

[c_yeager]

Red Dot or Mounted Light?

Both.

You need to be able to see what your shooting at and you need to be able to hit it as well.

 

[steelhead]

How about an Orange triangle. Still thinking about the light.

 

[SapperLeader]

I dont use a red dot on my shotgun, but do use a mounted light. A light is a must on any home defense weapon. If you cant identify your target, you dont shoot. Its as simple as that. when you start shooting at scary shapes in teh dark, you end up being one of those sad storys of father/brother/mother shooting son/daughter/spouse or even just some innocent stranger. My hd shotgun and rifle both have weaponslight on them, and I keep a flashlight with my sidearm. I live with my mom and sister, and my brother is in the house when hes home from school. I will never take the chance of hurting one of them, because I diddnt know it was them in the dark. the red dot is a good idea to help aiming in the dark, but I consider that a luxury, the light is not, it is a neccesity.

 

[lbmii]

What is an Orange triangle?

 

[steelhead]

lbmii,

The Trijicon reflex can be had with a 12.9 MOA Amber Triangle instead of a red dot. For close in you use the whole triangle for farther out you use the tip. I normally have this mounted on my AR. I just purchased a Kobra for the 870 and will be swapping that out and putting the Trijicon back on the AR.

Kobra

 

[lbmii]

That is one fancy site you have there! The triangle makes sense. When my site is zeroed in at 7 yards it shoots high as the distance from 7 yards increases. By using the top of the triangle you help compensate for this.

 

[lbmii]

I am coming around on the whole light idea. I am pretty good at shooting from the hip and can absorb the recoil and cycle the action from the hip really quite fast. I might consider a light to aid accuracy in from the hip firing. However I suspect that the first time I fire a 12 gauge round while the light is on that the light filament will break. Turn on a flashlight and give it a good smack upside its’ lil’ flashlight head and see what happens. Also I would want the light set up to be plugged into a charger with an easy disconnect. These lights seem way too expensive for what they are.

Has anyone fired a 12-gauge shotgun frequently with a mounted light while the light was on?

 

[nhhillbilly]

Light on Shotgun

I have shot hundreds of rounds with the surefire dedicated forend on my 870 and The department's 870's. Never had a problem with the lights either on or off. My personal 870 forend is probably 10 years old and hundreds of rounds though it both day and night time. We fire nighttime qualifs at least once a year.

 

[pangris]

Remington 11-87 with a 9 volt surefire on the front end, my personal flavor.

I don't like red dots or electronics in general, but Surefires have proven themselves to me time and time again. Just replace batteries BEFORE they die. At $1.25 ea, they are cheap enough...

FWIW, I don't think the red dot is of any value in a home defense situation for a variety of reasons - but the bottom line is that if someone breaks in, you might want to consider a cell phone next to the bed you'll station yourself behind or the closet you'll be in.

If you think a red dot, shotgun, M-16, M60, etc will help you in a one on three situation, I'd disagree. Unless you position yourself so that they have to come through a door - assuming you can run that pump REALLY WELL from behind cover - then you'll be pretty SOL against three people.

 

[lbmii]

Yes, the one verses three situation! So tell me what do you do? Home invasion is now a big thing in my area. As word spreads amongst the criminal world as to its' effectiveness you just might get the whole three person home invasion in your parts. A burglar traditionally desired anything but discovery by the homeowner. They want to slink in and slink out when no one is around. But something has changed. I theorize that the heavy use of home burglar alarms as well as a more open criminal culture has caused a rethinking in criminal tactics. Home invaders as they are now referred, actually seek out confrontation. What has been occurring in Kansas City is a house experiences a massive assault usually by three masked armed men. They tend to strike in the early morning.

I had an attempted break in at 2:20 am one night. I awoke to a tremendously fierce smashing and kicking noises on my basement door. I had secured that door with a 2 X 6 board (reinforced with a 2 X 4 board). The person or persons never breached the door but vibrated the door to the point the burglar alarm went off. There were tool marks all over my door like maybe a crowbar might make.

Some of the things I found interesting were:

The magnitude of the force and the length of time the force was used on the door.

The total disregard that was given to the creation of noise by the person(s) involved.

The obvious disregard that was given by the person(s) involved to anyone being home.

The slowness of Police response really bothered me. Yes time stands still during these situations however the Police response was indeed quite slow.

So I reiterate: What do you do?

 

[CZ52GUY]

I don't know if any of us can tell you what to do.

Given that for many of us, we're dealing with a hypothetical because we've never experienced what you described...at best, I think we can tell you what we HOPE we would do.

The conventional wisdom I've observed is:

1) Retrieve tangible method of protection and secure loved ones
2) Position yourself so that you are in a defendable position
3) Call the LEO's
4) Train so that you are capable of dealing with a problem that insists on engaging you while you are waiting for the cavalry.
5) Pray to the Creator (while maintaining a good sight picture) for strength and protection

A good shotty is a potent deterrant. At in-home distances, a service caliber HG can also be very effective, and perhaps easier to develop a level of competence to deal with a one-to-many situation. Full capacity mag's can help level the playing field.

Again, none of us can provide definitive answers. You have to filter out the advice you receive here. Nothing we provide for advice can substitute for solid formal training and competence achieved thereby (as well as through self-study).

Stay safe,

CZ52'

 

[Cameron Lamont]

- A quality light wont break the first time you fire the SG.

- Re-think firing the SG "from the hip". It is not the most effective way to achieve you goal.

- At 'across the room' or 'down the hall' distances the red dot is redundant.
A quality weapon mounted light would provide excellent target identification in a home defense role, the secondary benefit could be the the ability to momentarily blind the intruders (don't count on it though). A momentary on off switch is valuable in either case.

- In a defensive situation against three or more determined home invaders use cover, concealment and surprise to your advantage. Standing in the living room and firing at multiple target from the hip is perhaps the worst case scenario. Whereas, ambushing the three home invaders, from cover and/or concealment as they bunch in a hallway or attempt to negotiate a doorway will drastically stack the cards in your favor.

I hope the police in your area catch these guys before they do any more harm, stay safe.

Regards,
Cameron

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

yes, hell has indeed frozen over.


I agree with everything cameron just said.

 

[pangris]

Cameron uses the tool between his ears. Mega dittos.

 

[lbmii]

OK, it’s official; my precious red dot scope has been removed! A red laser has been installed but not yet sighted in. The shotgun is my primary weapon to be used from cover. The layout of my house is that of a raised ranch, the shotgun is for use from a defendable position that in my case is from the doorway of the master bedroom sideways facing down the hallway overlooking the sideways of the front door, the kitchen entrance, and the front room. The reason for choosing a shotgun is that 640 grains of Number One Buck will hopefully stop a situation very quickly. Also the spread of shot increases the probability of an incapacitating hit. And a long gun gives a more stable platform than a handgun.

I do take quite serious the concept of target identity. Where I differ from the panel on this thread is that I choose to use pre-positioned lights that do not draw attention to my person. I am quite a good shot and have had a lot of both quality training and practice. From what I have read and what I have seen from “caught on tape†shootouts is that when all hell breaks loose there is seldom any aiming being done by anyone and a lot of wild stray shots. Simply put, when you have a high mounted red dot you put the stock to the shoulder, have your head up, both eyes open, and the dot is right there in space before you, where the dot is where your shot is headed and that gives you the advantage. If the stock is to your shoulder you are aiming.

I have removed the red dot and will try out the laser. The thought being that I will use the laser as a split second “point of aim†confirmation device. The laser may give an advantage in that it can be deployed before shoulder mounting the weapon. I say I am good at shooting from the hip but actually it is from the upper side of the mid section (some do indeed shoot from the actual hip area, I do not).

For investigating my premises (Is the coast clear?) I use the top of the line Glock Model 35 in 40 caliber. For concealed situations I use a small 380 Kel Tech. I practice, both aimed and “point and shoot†against falling plates, with the Mossberg, Glock and Kel Tech.