Regarding entering private land.

[Art Eatman]

Separate "just hiking" from "hunting". Seems to me that an accidental trespass during hiking is commonly no big deal. I've had kids from a nearby subdivision trespass across my land and they had to cross a fence to do so. The most I ever did was to check them out and explain the ground rules so we could get along okay.

Hunting? Different deal. If I'm hunting on somebody's unfenced property, I'll make it a point to learn some reasonable idea of the limits of his area.

In today's world of topo maps and GPS, it shouldn't be difficult to learn the limits of public lands and, in this case, tribal lands. Accidental trespass on undelineated private lands of small size could easily be resolved by courtesy and politeness in the majority of cases.

 

[Davek1977]

Yes, its hard to determine what the OP is talking about EXACTLY. He mentions hunting fishing berry picking, trapping and the like in the original post

.For hunting or trapping, or fishing or berry picking, whatever

When he discovered that the majority of people have no issues with private lands being unmarked, he switched gears and started talking about two day "hikes" and the difficulties involved in determining exactly where one was at

All right . I will clarify my post.
In Alaske a two day hike will put me on -
1] Federal land.
2] native land.
3] state land.
4] privete land.

To clarify my position, I was taking the OP at his original word of hunting, fishing, trapping, gathering and the like with my responses. I have no issues with someone passing over land I own....but that changes if there's a fishing pole, bow, gun etc involved and its readily apparent they aren't simply looking for the shortest route between A and B, and crossing y property just seemed like the easiest option.

I'm not familiar with Alaska having never been there. I am familiar with the idea of being able to be on tribal ground, state ground, private ground leased by the state for hunting, and plain old private ground closed to hunting all within a matter of minutes. Its something hunters nationwide deal with, and I don't understand why it would be so much more difficult for the OP than it is for the hunters elsewhere. Knowing your hunting area is key to any successful hunt, and that means not only knowing terrain and animal habits, but also ownership of the land.

 

[MrMarty51]

"Quote:
Qustion is, are land owners required to post there land in your state?
Not in Wyoming."
Same in Montana.
It is a curtisy of the land owner to put up signs, a lot of them read "With Written Permission" and some landowners paint posts surrounding their property with flourescent red or orange paint and that means "Absolutely No Trespassing".
A lot of the property here is in the "Block Management Program" where a hunter registers with the landowner each time they go into the property and sign back out and if the had bagged a critter.
Some of the landowners in the block management program have sign in boxes placed at the gates going into their property. a person signs in, then signs back out upon leaving.
Do not be caught in B.M. land without signing in, that is a real huge fine.
The landowner gets reimbursed, through what We pay for license, for letting us hunt that propity. Through this system, a land owner knows who, how many and if He wants more people in at the same time.
A mighty fine system.
GPSs is might handy so You know "EXACTLY" where You are at all times. Problem with the GPSs is, I can not afford, even a cheap one, at this time in Mine life. LOL
Gubment land maps is good and accurate though and a lot of the gubment land has signs stating that You are entering, BLM, Forest Service, state land, etc. and from that point You can map it out, even without a GPS. Do not cross the boundaries though, Fish Wild Life and Parks juz loves collectin monies from trespassers.
Mr Sherriff, Mr Sherriff, I juz shot Me a treshpassher. !!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

 

[Tom K]

All right . I will clarify my post.
In Alaske a two day hike will put me on -
1] Federal land.
2] native land.
3] state land.
4] privete land. [by that I mean non-native land holders with small plots]
NONE of this information is easily avalable. So what do I do, confine myself to city parks so I never offend or distress Any of the Lords and ladys ruling their land who cannot be troubled with so much as a bright ribbion outlineing their piece of earth?

Sounds like since you're in Alaska you feel like it's okay to go wherever you want, whenever you want, without let or hinderance. It's all wild and wooly frontier and you're a free man. Fine. Just don't come complaining to us when some landowner decides to dispense frontier justice and you wind up in a shallow grave.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

Quite correct. There is no duty for the landowner to put up trespass signs, instead the burden is on the non landowner to find out who owns the property and get written permission to hunt/fish/bird watch. Trespass with a firearm/bow is a 3rd degree felony in Fl. If you shoot across someones property w/o permission that is a 3rd degree felony too and you can loose your vehicle, guns, jail time.

 

[jmr40]

Here is how Georgia handles it. If the land is posted, you must have permission in writing. No excuses. If the land is not posted it is still trespassing and charges could be filed. But game wardens have, and most use some judgement. If they feel it was an honest mistake a warning is usually all that happens. No guarantees, and a lot depends on how upset the landowner is.

The best answer I can think of is to buy a really good GPS with pre-loaded maps that show property boundaries.

Never been to Alaska, but can sympathize. I've been hiking/hunting in several Western states and despite someones best efforts you can get into trouble. There are even places here in GA where I can walk 20 miles and stay on NF property and suddenly walk up on a 1 square mile grid of private property that is completely surrounded by NF property. Even with good maps, the USFS often swaps out private property for NF land with people and it may be several years before accurate maps reflect this.

Unless you have been in a truly wilderness setting where 99% of the land for miles in every direction is public, with tiny pockets of isolated private property it is hard to understand how difficult it is to comply even when trying very hard.

I can't say what others would do. But if I owned property in such a setting I'd certainly find a way to mark my boundries even if not required. In most states public land is quite rare and all land should be considered private. Most of the Western states are well over 50% public land. It is hard for many Easterners to comprehend that.

 

[HankR]

So, if I leave my truck unlocked is it OK for you to use it as your own? Should I have a sign stating that it's a private truck, and I'd prefer to find it just where I left it when I need it next? Would it be OK for you to borrow it if you put it back?

 

[JTMcC]

Who are "us? Hunters? hikers? Anyone who wants to wander the woods with out GPS Lat/Long numbers? Or spending DAYS at the town hall looking up plats?
I call BS. If you are a high and mighty land owner, spend a few hours putting up posted signs. I will respect that.

I'm a tiny bit of a land owner. I'm not in any way "high and mighty", just the opposite.
A lot of hard work went into buying my little acerage of ground, in a beautifull spot (to us at least), backed by federal BLM land.
We've got a decent little shooting range out back. We're just poor, dumb and happy folks who like to shoot and live rural.
My younguns play outside every day, big protective dogs live here, we use the range often. Anybody that treads on my little remote property really needs to ask first.
There are very few strangers that stray out here, the last one was a tweaker/thief who was found dead about a mile away where he was trying to steal copper but fell into a deep rock pit filled with water and drowned, his bolt cutters on the bottom beside the body. His buddy/partner in crime (literaly) tried to interogate my 70+ year old Mom who was walking in the drive, looking for his buddy "Bob".
Don't assume that "visitors" to remote property will be welcomed in for coffee and homemade biscuits.
If you call the cops where I live they might/might not be out in a few hours. That instills a precautionary attitude (again based on previous experience), nobody is protecting us 'cept us.
Your post (as has been mentioned several times) has a noticable amount of liberal class warfare goin' on in it. You don't own it, you don't wander on it. It's really that simple.
Some people have gone to great lengths to avoid mainstream civilization. Including the odd wandering trapper/hunter/berry picker.
We are friendly, helpfull folks, but my property is my property. Your hours of harsh study be damned. Buy a cheap topo map from the guverment.
I may really treasure my berries, and eat them as part of our every day diet.
I don't dig thru your glovebox or your dresser drawers, you don't wander around my property.

J

 

[alsaqr]

My rural properties were acquired for hunting. They are posted.

In some states purple paint is used in lieu of no trespass signs. Texas is one of those states:

http://www.geocachingaustin.com/reference/purplepaint-texasnotrespassingmarking

Missouri:

http://agebb.missouri.edu/aglaw/aglaw9.htm

Illinois:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...t-law-20111017_1_tree-farmer-hunters-long-arm

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

So, if I leave my truck unlocked is it OK for you to use it as your own? Should I have a sign stating that it's a private truck, and I'd prefer to find it just where I left it when I need it next? Would it be OK for you to borrow it if you put it back?

Ummm...not quite the same thing, necessarily.

A vehicle of any kind is obviously a man-made object, which implies ownership in almost all cases.

Land, however, is not. It's been around billions of years before man ever came along. Unless there are obvious signs (as in "clues", not physical signage) that the land you're on belongs to somebody, then it may not be so obvious.

Such signs would include things like fences; man-made structures like buildings, pathways, & bridges; habitation; livestock; cultivation; and yes...private property postings.

In some places, it's obvious that the surrounding land must belong to SOMEBODY. But as someone else pointed out, in places like western states, a huge percentage of the land may actually be public and not private.

 

[jrdolall]

Requiring me to post my land is definitely a problem. I own a fair amount of land and it isn't in a big square. Two four lane highways cut through my land. I would have to spend thousands of dollars to get it posted every 20 feet. I live in Alabama which is pretty rural but not exactly like Alaska. If you are driving down the highway and get out of your car then you are on a right of way. If you leave that right of way then you are on someone's private property.

Native Americans didn't believe in personal ownership of land. Of course they killed, or tried to kill, anyone that trespassed on their tribal lands. Here in Alabama we do believe in private ownership of land. I paid a lot of money for my land and I utilize it for ranching, farming, hunting and recreation. I have stocked ponds on my land that cost me a lot of money. Having folks wander on and catch a "mess" of 7 pound large mouth bass for dinner(yes it happened) just doesn't sit well with me. Maybe in 50 years my kids can use it for an investment and get Jet Rich.

We, not around here, don't live in a world that allows us the freedom to roam wherever and whenever we want. I have caught umpteen people on my land over the years and the vast majority of them I either help out or point them to the highway. Some few, like the above mentioned fishing trip, spent some time with the local authorities. Every one that I ever called the law on was found guilty. Making a wrong turn down a dirt road and getting stuck in the mud seems to be a common practice. Why do people think they should get on that dirt road to go to the beach?

 

[JTMcC]

retiredusnavychief says:

"But as someone else pointed out, in places like western states, a huge percentage of the land may actually be public and not private".



So..........what does that mean?
You get to stroll thru my property? No.
I'm surrounded by fed land. On purpose and it took some serous leg work to get here, over 20 years ago.

Still the obnoxious fact remains, it is my yard. Don't enter without pemission. Period.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

retiredusnavychief says:

"But as someone else pointed out, in places like western states, a huge percentage of the land may actually be public and not private".



So..........what does that mean?
You get to stroll thru my property? No.
I'm surrounded by fed land. On purpose and it took some serous leg work to get here, over 20 years ago.

Still the obnoxious fact remains, it is my yard. Don't enter without pemission. Period.

I never said that. It is STILL encumbent upon the individual to reasonably ensure the land he is using for hunting/fishing/hiking or other recreational use is being legally used as such. Public lands require following the public rules. Private lands require permission of the owner.

What I AM saying is that it's not ALWAYS so clear cut where someone's private land boundaries are.

I have hunted many rural/farm lands in my time and it's almost always clear where one person's property ends and another begins. In fact, it's a point of responsibility to find out what those limitations are when you get permission to hunt. But sometimes the simple crossing of a creek puts you onto somebody else's property without knowing this.

OBVIOUSLY cases like this should be readily cleared up by good manners and respect on both parties. And the person in the wrong should ALWAYS take the initiative to leave at the first sign that they are in the wrong place.

If I wandered onto your property and you informed me of this, then you'd get absolutely NO argument from me about it. I'd simply ask for the quickest way to exit your property, if it wasn't clear to me.

 

[JTMcC]

I agree with you there Retired USNchief.

It can be clear cut, maybe not. Either way the OP "appears" to be not caring if it's clear or not. Just wanting to do his fun stuff and pick berries on somebody's property.
I don't agree with that.

J

 

[witchhunter]

I use a map.

 

[buck460XVR]

In Wisconsin, YOU are responsible to know where you are and who owns the land you are on. You are also responsible to have permission to be there. Anything else is considered trespassing. Being lost or not knowing whose land it is is not an excuse. For a hunter/hiker to say it is not their responsibility to know where they are or whose land they are on, regardless of where they are shows nuttin' but arrogance and selfishness. This attitude by some has done more to reduce access to private lands than anything else. Also, in Wisconsin landowners are not required to post their land, unless they are directly adjacent to public land with no restriction to access. If laws are different in other states and one complies with their state's laws, then what others from other states think is irrelevant. But even in those states where one doesn't need to know or ask first, it still is the courteous, respectful and considerate thing to do.

 

[HankR]

A vehicle of any kind is obviously a man-made object, which implies ownership in almost all cases.


Both federal and local governments own vehicles. The local college has (had?) a program where they bought a lot of bicycles, painted them some obnoxious color, and the idea was you could use it and leave it wherever you left it. Anybody finding it could do the same. The existence (real or rumored) of that program wouldn't allow you to borrow my bicycle at will just as the fact that some land is public doesn't mean that my land is public (I'm not a large landowner, but this just makes sense). If the OP thanks that maybe the fed gov owns the land and maybe he's allowed on it the onus is still on him to determine actual ownership, not on the landowner to protect him from his mis-understanding.

 

[hipoint]

I wonder how many people from the non-posted camp actually own land? whether it be deep woods or your back yard you should always be courteous and 1. ask the person why they are there and inform them that it is private land. 2. after they have been informed and possibly asked to leave, that's when you escalate things.... if everyone had a little more empathy we'd all get along better.

if you're the "walker" imagine how you would feel if a stranger were in your back yard with a gun. If you're the owner, imagine how you would feel if you couldn't find a place to get away from civilization for a bit...

 

[ldlfh7]

One should know not to trespass. If you are not sure where you are it is your problem, not the landowner's. There are lots of places you would not want to trespass especially brandishing a firearm. Could lead to a bad situation. It is a person's responsibility to know where they are. Simple.

 

[jrdolall]

1. ask the person why they are there and inform them that it is private land.

This works 99% of the time as people have accidentally wandered onto my land. No problem for me. I am glad they are out enjoying nature. I have occasionally found a hunter that had wandered onto my property by mistake. Heck I will give them a ride once they tell me who they were hunting with. I once found a guy using a climbing stand on my land. He was climbing a tree about 150 yards from the property line and wearing hunter orange. Very apologetic and led to a discussion between myself and the neighbor he was hunting with. Appears the neighbor told him to go to the edge of a small field and find a tree to climb. The guy did that but he found a better tree on my property. In that case, if he had shot a deer I would have helped him drag it out.

I catch you fishing in my lakes and you are going to jail unless you can run very fast. I once gave a lot of people permission to fish and then found people bringing out stringers of large mouth and taking 7 cousins with them. There's just no controlling it with MOST people. Now I allow VERY few people to fish my lakes and those are people that I feel good about releasing what they catch. Keep a few bluegill now and then but don't keep any bass unless I tell you it's okay.
People hunting without permission that I feel are not being truthful about what is going on are also going to jail. Just about every year I press charges against at least one guy. Always a young-ish, white male that thought he could get away with it.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

This is the the law reads in Alaska

AS 11.46.350. Definition.

(a) As used in AS 11.46.300 - 11.46.350, unless the context requires otherwise, "enter or remain unlawfully" means to (1) enter or remain in or upon premises or in a propelled vehicle when the premises or propelled vehicle, at the time of the entry or remaining, is not open to the public and when the defendant is not otherwise privileged to do so; (2) fail to leave premises or a propelled vehicle that is open to the public after being lawfully directed to do so personally by the person in charge; or (3) enter or remain upon premises or in a propelled vehicle in violation of a provision in an order issued or filed under AS 18.66.100 - 18.66.180 or issued under former AS 25.35.010 (b) or 25.35.020. (b) For purposes of this section, a person who, without intent to commit a crime on the land, enters or remains upon unimproved and apparently unused land, which is neither fenced nor otherwise enclosed in a manner designed to exclude intruders, is privileged to do so unless (1) notice against trespass is personally communicated to that person by the owner of the land or some other authorized person; or
(2) notice against trespass is given by posting in a reasonably conspicuous manner under the circumstances.
(c) A notice against trespass is given if the notice (1) is printed legibly in English; (2) is at least 144 square inches in size; (3) contains the name and address of the person under whose authority the property is posted and the name and address of the person who is authorized to grant permission to enter the property; (4) is placed at each roadway and at each way of access onto the property that is known to the landowner;
(5) in the case of an island, is placed along the perimeter at each cardinal point of the island; and (6) states any specific prohibition that the posting is directed against, such as "no trespassing," "no hunting," "no fishing," "no digging," or similar prohibitions.

It seems plain from this posting is requireded. Note this is uninproved property however. I can't run traps in someones back yard.

 

[jmr40]

Just to be clear, I have no desire to wander onto anothers private property. I will do everything in my power to avoid doing that. But I know from personal experience it is a lot harder to avoid in wilderness settings than a lot of folks here understand.

Consider this analogy. Suppose highway speed limits were no longer posted. They take down all of the signs nationwide and just post speed limits on maps. You have to always know exactly where you are, and what the speed limit is at that spot. Then consider that they only print maps every 5-10 years and you just have to guess when new construction shows up, the speed limit is changed and is not on your current map. People would go nuts.

That is exactly what is involved with hunters/hikers in wilderness areas with small pockets of private property here and there. I'm not in favor of passing laws requiring private land being marked, but it would sure be a good idea if land owners would. If I owned land and didn't want people wandering onto it I'd make sure the boundary was clearly marked to avoid confusion.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

Sounds like since you're in Alaska you feel like it's okay to go wherever you want, whenever you want, without let or hinderance. It's all wild and wooly frontier and you're a free man. Fine. Just don't come complaining to us when some landowner decides to dispense frontier justice and you wind up in a shallow grave.

So you feel you can sentence to death and execute anyone you spot on your back 40?

 

[Sam1911]

So you feel you can sentence to death and execute anyone you spot on your back 40?

That is NOT what he said. At all.

It is imperative that we understand that your right to be somewhere -- or in this case, your lack of a right to be somewhere -- is not a blanket of protection that keeps bad things from happening to you. Tom K posted something bad that could happen to you should you trespass. None of us would do that. It isn't fair or right or proper or lawful. But it could still happen. Some folks really don't care for trespassers and don't care what the law says they can do about it. Trespassing is not a safe thing to do -- in fact, it is a legendarily risky activity on par with working the counter at an all-night liquor store. As the song says, you don't tug on Superman's cape, you don't spit into the wind, you don't pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger, and you don't go trespassing if you want to stay healthy. (I might have the lyrics off there, but I think that was the idea.)

At any rate, you asked for the group's opinion and you've gotten it, nearly unanimously. Apparently you don't like their opinion, but you've gotten what you asked for. Let's call it done as there's no point in arguing about it.