Reloading Myths - Busted or Confirmed?

[oneounceload]

WD-40 leaves a varnish type of finish that eventually starts to get gummy after a while

You are much better off with a regular oil

It isn't the jacketed bullet that wears the barrel out - it is the heat generated - think throat erosion

WD-40 is about the best agent to use to remove the stick-um left behind when removing stickers from products.

ANY oil will do the job - even peanut butter. GOOF-OFF is the best, as is brake cleaner, but you need to reoil/regreasde afterwards

 

[jcwit]

jcwit, the reason why I posted #16 is that it's NOT a simple answer as USSR and kelbro have indicated. Consider that in 2009, Ken Brucklacher set a 1000 yard 10-shot world benchrest record at 3.173" with new brass with no prep work. Many reloaders and shooters do things because everyone else does and don't think about why they should do it ... that's what a myth is ... blind belief without proof. Also, you'll probably find that many, if not most, bench rest shooters have "match grade" chambers that are concentric to the bore ... this isn't always the case with factory rifles. Personally, I've moved away from neck sizing only to using the same process as USSR i.e. neck size followed by shoulder bump with a body die. The results with my F-Class rifle have been very encouraging, but just as your experience isn't universal, neither is mine.

The other question is just how much smaller a 1,000 yd. group could Ken Brucklacher have shot if he would have fire formed his brass and neck sized the cases? Just because he did it with factory brass and never tried any other ideas proves nothing other than he won that particular match.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

WD-40 leaves a varnish type of finish that eventually starts to get gummy after a while

I've NEVER seen this in 40 years of using it. YMMV

ANY oil will do the job - even peanut butter.

Having personally had to remove glue residue for many years (fuel decals from OTR trucks) I can confidently say that oil of ANY nature doesn't work as well as WD or even Windex,no opiinno on the peanut butter. I don't recommend smearing oil OR peanut butter on windshield stickers or bugs on bumpers.

 

[steve4102]

It's also a sampling of one.

No, The graph is one, read the article linked to Barnes testing, more than one!

 

[USSR]

The other question is just how much smaller a 1,000 yd. group could Ken Brucklacher have shot if he would have fire formed his brass and neck sized the cases? Just because he did it with factory brass and never tried any other ideas proves nothing other than he won that particular match.

"never tried any other ideas"? Walkalong, tell him. Benchrest shooters will try ANYTHING, including waving a chicken above their head, if it means smaller groups.

Don

 

[jcwit]

"never tried any other ideas"? Walkalong, tell him. Benchrest shooters will try ANYTHING, including waving a chicken above their head, if it means smaller groups.

Agreed, but that wasn't what was posted, only that he shot that group with new factory brass, as if that was the end all.

I'll have to try the chicken idea, might help, who knows. I'll report back with my findings.

 

[USSR]

I'll have to try the chicken idea, might help, who knows. I'll report back with my findings.

Great! Then we can all argue over whether it's better to wave a Leghorn or a Plymouth Rock.

Don

 

[EddieNFL]

MYTH #13 - A hand loader should never use a powder charge greater than the maximum shown in the reloading manual or in the reloading data produced by the powder manufacturer - CONFIRMED per THR principles?

A CYA rule doesn't bust a myth.

 

[kludge]

No, The graph is one, read the article linked to Barnes testing, more than one!

I did read the article, and nowhere does it state that the loads are below recommended OAL. For all we know 0.165" off the lands could be recommended OAL. Just like recommended OAL is 0.120" off the lands my Savage. It just depends on the gun.

OAL is a red herring the way they are doing the test... the reason for the test I believe is this:

Barnes bullets don't shoot well when you seat them out into the lands or 0.020" to 0.050" off the lands... this is where "common practice" tells people to put there bullets for best accuracy. Jamming them into the lands raises pressure - everybody know this. Putting them 0.020" off the lands raises pressure. Again, everybody knows this. Barnes is just giving everyone a reason to try their bullets further off the land.

What is OAL for their loads? The text doesn't say. Is 0.156" off the lands below recommended Does the test recommend seating bullets below recommended OAL? No; OAL isn't mentioned. But you will come to a point where seating the bullet deeper WILL begin to raise pressure. The OAL in the load manual is based on bullet shape and weight and magazine length for a given cartridge, knowing that if you have a SAAMI minimum chamber, and you stay under the max load, all is well. If you reduce the OAL below what the load manual says pressure will go up. It HAS TO. Same gas volume, less space. On the opposite end of the spectrum (bullets jammed into the leads) the same thing happens, pressure goes up. There is nothing new here. No myths. Red Herring.

 

[LiveLife]

MYTH #13 - A hand loader should never use a powder charge greater than the maximum shown in the reloading manual or in the reloading data produced by the powder manufacturer - CONFIRMED per THR principles?

A CYA rule doesn't bust a myth.

Oh yeah? Tell that to a moderator.

REQUIRED READ for those posting Extra HEAVY LOAD Information
THIS IS IMPORTANT- - - - -

In the spirit of advancing knowledge and encouraging the open sharing of information amongst The High Road forum members, the near-unrestricted posting of handloading information and specific loads is allowed.

HOWEVER---
We owe it to one another to include proper cautions whenever we post ANY load in excess of published information. To fail in this duty may well endanger our forum associates - - either their firearms or their health.

In most of the other forums, if someone posts information in error, or in rash disregard of courtesy or propriety, little or no lasting harm is done. When dealing with high-powered firearms and the care and feeding thereof, though, someone could easily get hurt.

I am well aware that many loads have been acceptable in the past, and have been published in older loading manuals and magazine articles. I still happily use certain of these loads in MY own firearms, and do not feel I am at risk. Do as you wish with YOUR firearms and when you are placing only YOURSELF at risk.

If you wish to share such OLD loading data, please specifically quote the exact source, with the note that it is now considered over max. With NEW data you have worked up and which is beyond currently published maximums, PLEASE heed this admonition:

At the beginning of your message, insert in BOLD type a no-uncertain-terms cautionary note, for example:

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

 

[Walkalong]

Walkalong, tell him. Benchrest shooters will try ANYTHING, including waving a chicken above their head

Yep, not a myth, Benchresters will try anything, but if it doesn't work, it didn't matter who swore by it, it was dropped, like moly coated bullets.

If the chicken thing had worked, they would still be doing it, while debating whether a Leghorn or a Plymouth Rock was better.

Some of us neck sized only with hand dies, and some would use threaded custom cut sizers to just barely full length size. We would bump the shoulder .001 or less while the body was barely touched. It was more keeping the case at bay than sizing.

If you neck size only sooner or later you would have to bump the shoulder. The Niel Jones neck sizer I had would bump the shoulder a hair without touching the body. You would still have to size the body at some point using it. I could not tell a difference accuracy wise using either one, and the custom sizer was easier, so I switched to it.

I have been staying out of this thread because not much is written in stone when it comes to reloading.

 

[RugerOldArmy]

while debating whether a Leghorn or a Plymouth Rock was better.

Neither, Thunderbird!

 

[LiveLife]

MYTH #16 - For reloads shot in the same bolt rifle, neck sizing only, produces superior ammunition (velocity SD, accuracy and precision) compared to full-length sizing

Well, I guess this myth is going back for more discussion then.

I have been staying out of this thread because not much is written in stone when it comes to reloading.

We could take the middle of the road general consensus along THR slant. So, how we doing so far?

 

[cfullgraf]

If the chicken thing had worked, they would still be doing it, while debating whether a Leghorn or a Plymouth Rock was better.

There's your problem, it should have been a Rhode island red. But it had to be properly sacrificed!

Remember, Foghorn Leghorn keeps his feathers numbered just for such an occasion.

Walkalong, I am really impressed with what you bench rest guys can do.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

A CYA rule doesn't bust a myth.

I agree. But it does keep you on The High Road.

 

[LiveLife]

So, this is where we are. I guess we could vote on some of them and get a general consensus to BUST or CONFIRM:

MYTH #1A - Shooting residue in barrel will wear steel barrels - CONFIRMED: Shooting residue (carbon, ash, grit, etc.) may get harder than regular steel barrel surface and scratch/wear if left in the barrel.
MYTH #1B - Shooting residue in barrel may wear surface hardened barrels (Glock Tennifer/M&P Melonite).
MYTH #2 - When scrubbing leading out of barrels, you should only use copper scrubbing pad material, not copper plated steel/stainless steel.
MYTH #3 - WD40 will remove bluing on metal - BUSTED: Per WD-40 company.
MYTH #4 - Glock/M&P barrels are coated with Tennifer/Melonite - BUSTED: They are surface hardening treatments not finish coating.
MYTH #5 - 5.56 Military brass has less case capacity than Commercial 223 brass.
MYTH #6 - Reduced OAL on bottle neck rifle rounds will increase pressure.
MYTH #7 - The people who reply to your post really care about your problem, issue, opinion.
MYTH #8 - To achieve top velocity you use a faster burning propellant for short barrels and slower for long
MYTH #9 - Using Lee Powder Dippers results is inaccurate and dangerous ammo.
MYTH #10 - WD 40 is a great cleaner
MYTH #11 - Crimped ammunition is more consistent (started by a certain die manufacturer)
MYTH #12 - If you store smokeless powder (15lb. or less) in approved containers in your garage or in a closet, it is likely to explode if the garage or house catches on fire - BUSTED (Anyone in disagreement?)
MYTH #13 - A hand loader should never use a powder charge greater than the maximum shown in the reloading manual or in the reloading data produced by the powder manufacturer - CONFIRMED for THR mods
MYTH #14 - A careful handloader can usually produce ammo that shoots with more precision (smaller groups) than factory ammo - CONFIRMED - I know Black Hill's ammo shoots well, but aren't blue boxes reloads?
MYTH #15 - Some ranchers, traditional healers, and alternative medicine healers use WD40 to relieve joint pain and stiffness by spraying it directly on their knees, elbows, shoulders, wrists, or other joints. <I don't know about this ... anyone tried WD40 on your joints?>
MYTH #16 - For reloads shot in the same bolt rifle, neck sizing only, produces superior ammunition (velocity SD, accuracy and precision) compared to full-length sizing.


Voting open!

 

[NM Mountainman]

About myth #15: I included this myth because it is a myth I've heard about WD-40 and because I thought it might get a laugh. But I realize that it is not really relevant to the hand loading myth discussion, and it would be OK by me to exclude it from further discussion. My apologies to anyone who may have felt I was taking the discussion off track.

 

[NM Mountainman]

Myth # 17: When loading maximum or near maximum loads for a .44 mag. revolver, a Ruger Redhawk or Super Redhawk can safely fire hotter loads than a S&W 629 which came equipped with the upgrades and modifications known as the endurance package(s).

I have my opinions on this, but I can't prove they are true. I would like to hear what others say.

 

[NM Mountainman]

I agree with everything RugerOldArmy said in post #32 about the superior accuracy of hand loads which are custom tailored for a particular rifle. Good post.

My point was that factory ammo is (generally speaking) much better than it used to be. With an out of the box hunting style rifle, many hand loaders will not see any (or much) improvement over factory loads unless they custom tailor their loads. But suppose a shooter could afford to test all of the available factory loads for his rifle, is it unlikely that the best factory loads might shoot as well as the best tailored hand loads? I suspect (but don't know) that the best hand loads would usually be a at least a little better, but that the difference might be barely noticeable in a hunting rifle.

 

[MCMXI]

jcwit, my experience with rifle cases that are fired in the same rifle is that they don't all end up with the same case head to shoulder dimension (headspace for want of a simpler term). How many fired cases have you measured from one rifle and how did you measure them? I've measured 400 Lapua cases fired in the same rifle with a Krieger barrel and a match chamber. I use Redding Instant Indicator Case Comparators for all of my rifle cartridges and I was surprised to see how much the headspace varied, even after three firings. I'm able to control the shoulder bump fairly well now (particularity after annealing) and +/- 0.0005" is possible. In other words, I can obtain a higher tolerance of the outer dimensions of the case by neck sizing and using a body die than my match chamber does by fire forming. Once again, this is my experience only.

Redding IICC zeroed with brass SAAMI standard and showing case "headspace" after firing.

 

[Walkalong]

Same here 1858. Not all cases come out exactly the same. One has to settle for an average that is safe.

 

[MCMXI]

Some of the best results have been obtained with new factory brass .... like Ken's world record. I used to think that I'd have to fire form all the brass through my .308 before it would shoot well and before I'd consider using it for matches, but it's simply not the case anymore. I can take brand new Lapua brass and shoot great scores or groups with it because the cases are all sized to closer tolerances than can be obtained by fire forming. I'm not trying to convince anyone to do one thing or another. It doesn't make any difference to me what someone else does or believes. I'm just putting this out there for discussion since this is a thread about reloading myths. Many people think that neck sizing is superior in bolt action rifles compared to full length sizing without really ever comparing the two methods thoroughly. Bart B. had a very interesting thread about this very thing. I'm not sure what happened to him but I enjoyed his posts.

For example, I shot the group below with my POF P308 using brand new Winchester brass and Wolf primers. It's almost a 1/2 MOA 5-shot group from a gas piston semi-auto with all rounds fed from the magazine (prone off bipod). As anyone with a semi-auto will tell you, you can't neck size only. In fact, many go as far as using a small base die. My friend's KAC SR-25 performs the same way shooting groups close to or even better than 1/2 MOA. So if neck sizing is best, how come .308 and .223 semi autos perform so well? The implication here is that if neck sizing would result in even better accuracy, this would make my POF and many other semi-autos more accurate than the vast majority of bolt action rifles. This seems counter intuitive.

 

[Walkalong]

A trick to get the cases closer to each other as far as where the shoulder is, is to back out the sizer a hair from where you have it, size everything, measure everything, and then screw the sizer down a hair, f needed, to get some cases down to where you want, then screw the sizer down a hair more for the next closest ones, then a bit more for others, etc, untill all the cases are very very close to the same headspace. Lots of work though.

When sizing 6 PPC BR brass formed from Lapua .220 Russian fired in a tight necked chamber it is usually really close. (only 15 to 20 cases) Sizing it just a hair in a custom sizer or a Neil Jones neck die set to just barely bump the shoulder will keep the brass there. Even still, not all cases will be exactly the same.

While this consistency in headspace is most certainly good, it doesn't guarantee accuracy by its self.

 

[bill97222]

I can't really do any myth debunking concerning WD-40 but I can testify that my personal experience using it as a rust remover, cleaner and solvent has been positive over the course of 3 decades.

As previously stated, as a lubricant it's a short term solution at best... but if all you want to do is swab the gunk out of your pistol after you've shot 40 or 50 rounds... knock yourself out... you can spend WAY more on "gun specific" products to accomplish the same results... I choose to spend my money on bullets, powder and primers instead.

Now for the real shocker Sports Fans... I bought a quart of fully synthetic Quaker State 5W-20 when I bought an AK 47 about a year ago... OH MY!!!... Seems folks here on the internet forums put it on their guns... Well... AK folks do anyways.

So far, my experience is that a good synthetic motor oil makes an effective, highly affordable gun lubricant.

Since I bought the quart, the AK ran so smoothly that I've applied it to 15 other firearms, 7 of them semi automatic pistols ranging from a 1969 Ruger MK 1 22lr to a new Rock Island Compact 45 ACP, all of which I shoot frequently, and which would be apt to expose a poor choice of lubricant through wear and malfunction... All of my guns are running smoothly with no noticeable wear.

I'm looking at my 2/3 full quart of Quaker State now and I'm figuring that I'm into this motor oil experiment about $1.50... and my reloading log says that I've put over 3000 rounds downrange so far from my centerfire pistols alone.

Don't even ask me what I'm usin for grease fella's... ha... ha... ha...

 

[fguffey]

Hair diameter is not a standard, the feeler gage is. My dies are solid, there is nothing magic about screwing a die into a press, if the die is lowered .100 from the top the die protrudes an additional .100 from the bottom, meaning anyone with the minimum skills with the use of a dial caliber and or depth micrometer can adjust sizer dies and seating dies with both tools, the dial caliper and the depth micrometer, with the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage, they can confirm the adjustment, or do without the dial caliper and height gage me? I find all types of jobs are made easier with transfers and standards, the worst adjustments are made with the guesstimate as in "I turn the die in 1/4 turn" that is without a degree wheel on a die with 14 threads per inch meaning one turn = .071 thousands plus very little with no way to align the die with an index.


"The other question is just how much smaller a 1,000 yd. group could Ken Brucklacher have shot if he would have fire formed his brass and neck sized the cases? Just because he did it with factory brass and never tried any other ideas proves nothing other than he won that particular match"

I have a Weatherby chambered to 300 Win Mag, it shoots one hole groups, When a rifle is that accurate I apply the Leaver Policy, I leaver the way I founder. I also have the 'ugliest' rifle ever converted to a sports type rifle, cost $120.00, I took a chance, I did not think anyone could build a rifle that ugly without knowing what they were doing, if it did not work out the parts would become a crack shot 8mm Norma? or a 8mm 338 Winchester sorta, it was not possible to improve on the accuracy, it liked everything I loaded for testing, 60 rounds of 12 different loads, cases and bullets. Then there is the 303 1905 Ross for $80.00 and a Santa Fa Remington 03 without the A3 for $150.00.

It has nothing to do with determining how the rifle handles other loads, it is about the reloaders ability to determine the difference between new ammo, once fired ammo (or as the bench rest types call it 'fire formed'), I form first then fire, after firing I get once fired cases, but I do not have a different type of die for each day of the week but with the companion tool to the press the feeler gage I can size cases for short chambers ( .017 thousands shorter than a go-gage length chamber) and for a long chamber (that is .011 thousands longer than a go-gage length chamber 'to infinity') when using the versatile full length sizer die and companion tool to the press, the feeler gage.

Then there is the myth 'The firing pin drives the case, bullet and powder forward before the firing pin crushes the primer'. That happens on all other rifles? except my rifles, my firing pin crushes the primer before the case, bullet and powder know their little buddy was hit.

F. Guffey