Myth Busting 9mm R-P "thin" case wall notion

[LiveLife]

I didn't want to hijack another thread so starting a new thread - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/sort-9mm-by-headstamp.921531/#post-12682339

RP gets sorted out and stored due to thinner wall thickness.

I sort R-P out due to their thinner case walls.

Time to put this "myth" to rest, for 9mm brass.

During the past decade, I kept reading posts from some members that R-P (Remington) headstamp brass have thinner walls. But in my testing and myth busting measurements where I checked neck tension by measurable/repeatable bullet setback feeding dummy rounds (no primer, no powder) from magazine, this was not the case as R-P/R-P "." brass tended to produce less bullet setback.

R-P brass having thinner walls may have been the case in decades past (And perhaps for 45ACP) but not for 9mm now.

All the 9mm cases I have measured in recent decade (Mostly once-fired brass I saw go from factory boxes to range floor, bright brass I collected from ground along with factory boxes at outdoor BLM shooting areas or bought from THR members as mostly "once-fired" range brass) at 4 positions around the case mouth (.100" below) and case neck (.200" below) at 12/3/6/9 O'clock have consistently and repeatedly showed R-P (And newer R-P ".") brass have thicker case wall on par with Starline/Winchester and I would not consider them to be "thinner" case wall brass.

In the "Myth Busting Neck Tension and Bullet Setback" thread, 12/3/6/9 O'clock measurements were made at .100" and .200" below case mouth.

Measurement #4 - Case Wall Thickness .100" below case mouth - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10712225​

​

Measurement #5 - Case Wall Thickness .200" below case mouth - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10713822​

​

All the measurements were summarized and averaged in this post - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10715550

Average Case Wall Thickness .100" Below Case Mouth (Where taper crimp is applied):​

​

.0129" - PPU​

.0126" - S+B​

.01256" - CBC​

.0125" - HRTRS​

.0124" - Tulammo​

.0121" - GECO​

.0120" - PERFECTA​

.0119" - AGUILA​

.0116" - R-P​

.01158" - GFL​

.0115" - PMC​

.0111" - WIN​

.0110" - Starline​

.0108" - .FC.​

.0105" - SPEER​

.0104" - BLAZER​

​

​

Average Case Wall Thickness .200" Below Case Mouth (Where most neck tension is applied to hold bullet ... Around Bullet Seating Depth for HSM 115 gr RN at 1.130" OAL):​

​

.0144" - CBC​

.0138" - PPU​

.0137" - GECO​

.0135" - HRTRS​

.0135" - Tulammo​

.0133" - S+B​

.0132" - WIN​

.0131" - GFL​

.0130" - AGUILA​

.0130" - PERFECTA​

.01225" Starline​

.0122" - PMC​

.0121" - R-P​

.0115" - .FC.​

.0111" - SPEER​

.0110" - BLAZER​

​

But brass case wall thickness alone doesn't translate to neck tension as there are other factors such as malleability/ductility of brass alloy strength/quality and to me, proof of this in "real world" application is measuring and repeating bullet setback.

And as you can see, .355" sized 115 gr plated RN bullet (Selected due to shorter bullet base compared to 124/147 gr RN bullets) loaded to 1.130" OAL that many reloaders may use in "real world" range blasting/plinking application, bullet setback measurements were summarized and averaged in below listing tested in Gen3 Glock 22/23 using KKM/Lone Wolf 40-9 conversion barrels - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10715550

Average Bullet Setback from Measurement #3 with Hunting Shack Munitions 115 gr plated RN at 1.130" OAL:​

​

.0000" - GECO​

.0000" - R-P​

.0000" - WIN​

.00008" - CBC​

.00008" - Tulammo​

.0001" - PERFECTA​

.0003" - GFL​

.0006" - PMC​

.0008" - BLAZER​

.0010" - .FC.​

CONCLUSION: This final post from "Myth Busting Neck Tension and Bullet Setback" thread demonstrated that R-P headstamp brass did not experience bullet setback with .354" sized Everglades 115 gr FMJ and .355" sized Hunting Shack Munitions 115 gr plated RN (Test continued with .3555" sized RMR 115 gr FMJ and .356" sized Zero 115 gr FMJ) all loaded to 1.130" OAL to once and for all, bust the myth that R-P 9mm brass has "thin" case wall - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4

Additional verification.

When I tested the new Lee Pro 6000 for finished OAL consistency in progressive mode (shellplate full), R-P and R-P "." brass produced least amount of OAL variance, further confirming case wall thickness and brass alloy strength/quality - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...r-oal-consistency.911743/page-3#post-12446468

• RMR 115 gr FMJ RN sized around .3555" were used
• Case mouth was flared to .380" at Station #5 (Used .750" length resized case to set the flare amount)
• .378" taper crimp was applied (Used .750" length resized case)
• Bullets were seated and taper crimped in same step at Station #6
• Blazer unsorted - OAL of 1.128"-1.133" (.005" variance)
• G.F.L. unsorted - OAL of 1.129"-1.133" (.004" variance)
• .FC. unsorted - OAL of 1.128"-1.131" (.003" variance)
• FC unsorted - OAL of 1.130"-1.132" (.002" variance)
• WIN unsorted - OAL of 1.131"-1.133" (.002" variance)
• R-P unsorted - OAL of 1.133"-1.134" (.001" variance)
• R-P "." unsorted - OAL of 1.134"-1.135" (.001" variance)

Further verification came when I tested 2023 Lee Pro 1000 for finished OAL consistency in progressive mode (shellplate full) and R-P and R-P "." brass produced .002" OAL variance with no bullet setback - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...pro-1000-unboxing.916672/page-2#post-12569726

• Blazer unsorted - OAL of 1.128"-1.131 (.003" variance)
• FC unsorted - OAL of 1.129"-1.132" (.003" variance)
• .FC. unsorted - OAL of 1.129"-1.131" (.002" variance)
• R-P unsorted - OAL of 1.132"-1.134" (.002" variance)
• R-P "." unsorted - OAL of 1.133"-1.135" (.002" variance)
• WIN unsorted - OAL of 1.133" (.000" variance)

Bullet setback test of finished rounds: (Test pistol Gen3 Glock 22 with KKM 40-9mm conversion barrel and 9mm 10 round factory magazine loaded with 5 rounds - OAL before - OAL after - Bullet setback):

• Blazer - 1.128" - 1.126" - .002"
• Blazer - 1.128" - 1.125" - .003"
• FC - 1.131" - 1.131" - .000"
• FC - 1.131" - 1.131" - .000"
• WIN - 1.133" - 1.133" - .000"
• WIN - 1.133" - 1.133" - .000"
• R-P - 1.134" - 1.134" - .000"
• R-P - 1.134" - 1.134" - .000"
• R-P "." - 1.134" - 1.134" - .000"
• R-P "." - 1.134" - 1.134" - .000"

 

[Blue68f100]

Most all of my RP brass is 20+ yrs old, so no change for me. Still stored separately. Good to know that they have finally made a change.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I didn't want to hijack another thread so starting a new thread - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/sort-9mm-by-headstamp.921531/#post-12682339


Time to put this "myth" to rest, for 9mm brass.

During the past decade, I kept reading posts from some members that R-P (Remington) headstamp brass have thinner walls. But in my testing and myth busting measurements where I checked neck tension by measurable/repeatable bullet setback feeding dummy rounds (no primer, no powder) from magazine, this was not the case as R-P/R-P "." brass tended to produce less bullet setback.

R-P brass having thinner walls may have been the case in decades past (And perhaps for 45ACP) but not for 9mm now.

All the 9mm cases I have measured in recent decade (Mostly once-fired brass I saw go from factory boxes to range floor, bright brass I collected from ground along with factory boxes at outdoor BLM shooting areas or bought from THR members as mostly "once-fired" range brass) at 4 positions around the case mouth (.100" below) and case neck (.200" below) at 12/3/6/9 O'clock have consistently and repeatedly showed R-P (And newer R-P ".") brass have thicker case wall on par with Starline/Winchester and I would not consider them to be "thinner" case wall brass.

In the "Myth Busting Neck Tension and Bullet Setback" thread, 12/3/6/9 O'clock measurements were made at .100" and .200" below case mouth.

Measurement #4 - Case Wall Thickness .100" below case mouth - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10712225​

​

Measurement #5 - Case Wall Thickness .200" below case mouth - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10713822​

​

All the measurements were summarized and averaged in this post - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10715550

Average Case Wall Thickness .100" Below Case Mouth (Thickest to thinnest):​

​

.0129" - PPU​

.0126" - S+B​

.01256" - CBC​

.0125" - HRTRS​

.0124" - Tulammo​

.0121" - GECO​

.0120" - PERFECTA​

.0119" - AGUILA​

.0116" - R-P​

.01158" - GFL​

.0115" - PMC​

.0111" - WIN​

.0110" - Starline​

.0108" - .FC.​

.0105" - SPEER​

.0104" - BLAZER​

​

​

Average Case Wall Thickness .200" Below Case Mouth (Around Bullet Seating Depth for HSM 115 gr RN at 1.130" OAL):​

​

.0144" - CBC​

.0138" - PPU​

.0137" - GECO​

.0135" - HRTRS​

.0135" - Tulammo​

.0133" - S+B​

.0132" - WIN​

.0131" - GFL​

.0130" - AGUILA​

.0130" - PERFECTA​

.01225" Starline​

.0122" - PMC​

.0121" - R-P​

.0115" - .FC.​

.0111" - SPEER​

.0110" - BLAZER​

​

But brass case wall thickness alone doesn't translate to neck tension as there are other factors such as malleability/ductility of brass alloy quality and to me, proof of this in "real world" application is measuring and repeating bullet setback.

And as you can see, .355" sized 115 gr plated RN bullet (Selected due to shorter bullet base compared to 124/147 gr RN bullets) loaded to 1.130" OAL that many reloaders may use in "real world" range blasting/plinking application, bullet setback measurements were summarized and averaged in below listing tested in Gen3 Glock 22/23 using KKM/Lone Wolf 40-9 conversion barrels - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10715550

Average Bullet Setback from Measurement #3 with Hunting Shack Munitions 115 gr plated RN at 1.130" OAL:​

​

.0000" - GECO​

.0000" - R-P​

.0000" - WIN​

.00008" - CBC​

.00008" - Tulammo​

.0001" - PERFECTA​

.0003" - GFL​

.0006" - PMC​

.0008" - BLAZER​

.0010" - .FC.​

CONCLUSION: This final post from "Myth Busting Neck Tension and Bullet Setback" thread demonstrated that R-P headstamp brass did not experience bullet setback with .354" sized Everglades 115 gr FMJ and .355" sized Hunting Shack Munitions 115 gr plated RN (Test continued with .3555" sized RMR 115 gr FMJ and .356" sized Zero 115 gr FMJ) all loaded to 1.130" OAL to once and for all, bust the myth that R-P 9mm brass has "thin" case wall - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4

Additional verification.

When I tested the new Lee Pro 6000 for finished OAL consistency in progressive mode (shellplate full), R-P and R-P "." brass produced least amount of OAL variance, further confirming case wall thickness and brass alloy - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...r-oal-consistency.911743/page-3#post-12446468

• RMR 115 gr FMJ RN sized around .3555" were used
• Case mouth was flared to .380" at Station #5 (Used .750" length resized case to set the flare amount)
• .378" taper crimp was used (Using .750" length resized case)
• Bullets were seated and taper crimped in same step at Station #6
• Blazer unsorted - OAL of 1.128"-1.133" (.005" variance)
• G.F.L. unsorted - OAL of 1.129"-1.133" (.004" variance)
• .FC. unsorted - OAL of 1.128"-1.131" (.003" variance)
• FC unsorted - OAL of 1.130"-1.132" (.002" variance)
• WIN unsorted - OAL of 1.131"-1.133" (.002" variance)
• R-P unsorted - OAL of 1.133"-1.134" (.001" variance)
• R-P "." unsorted - OAL of 1.134"-1.135" (.001" variance)

Further verification came when I tested 2023 Lee Pro 1000 for finished OAL consistency in progressive mode (shellplate full) and R-P and R-P "." brass produced .002" OAL variance with no bullet setback - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...pro-1000-unboxing.916672/page-2#post-12569726

• RMR 115 gr FMJ RN sized around .3555" were used
• Case mouth was flared to .380" at Station #5 (Used .750" length resized case to set the flare amount)
• .378" taper crimp was used (Using .750" length resized case)
• Bullets were seated and taper crimped in same step at Station #6
• Blazer unsorted - OAL of 1.128"-1.131 (.003" variance)
• FC unsorted - OAL of 1.129"-1.132" (.003" variance)
• .FC. unsorted - OAL of 1.129"-1.131" (.002" variance)
• R-P unsorted - OAL of 1.132"-1.134" (.002" variance)
• R-P "." unsorted - OAL of 1.133"-1.135" (.002" variance)
• WIN unsorted - OAL of 1.133" (.000" variance)

Bullet setback test of finished rounds: (Test pistol Gen3 Glock 22 with KKM 40-9mm conversion barrel and 9mm 10 round factory magazine loaded with 5 rounds - OAL before - OAL after - Bullet setback):

• Blazer - 1.128" - 1.126" - .002"
• Blazer - 1.128" - 1.125" - .003"
• FC - 1.131" - 1.131" - .000"
• FC - 1.131" - 1.131" - .000"
• WIN - 1.133" - 1.133" - .000"
• WIN - 1.133" - 1.133" - .000"
• R-P - 1.134" - 1.134" - .000"
• R-P - 1.134" - 1.134" - .000"
• R-P "." - 1.134" - 1.134" - .000"
• R-P "." - 1.134" - 1.134" - .000"

Nice write up!
I don’t think an assay of the brass would influence the results but it might be interesting.
Also of interest to some would be the comparative water volumes.
Again, in my opinion the susceptibility to setback is the real issue and that myth is busted.

 

[LiveLife]

in my opinion the susceptibility to setback is the real issue

Yes.

While I used to think being OCD about finished OAL and bullet setback ("Finished OAL" doesn't matter if "Chambered OAL" changes finished OAL from bullet nose bumping feed ramp) were reserved for "match grade" rounds, but as more and more members reported issues reloading 9mm with accuracy issue, I began to put more and more emphasis on OAL consistency and bullet setback.

9mm is small internal case volume cartridge and more susceptible to changes in reloading variables, even small changes. As illustrated by OAL vs pressure chart below, even small OAL variance/bullet setback of several thousandths can increase chamber pressures by several thousand PSI, enough to likely increase group size on target - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-11#post-12503881

 

[CQB45ACP]

I didn't want to hijack another thread so starting a new thread - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/sort-9mm-by-headstamp.921531/#post-12682339


Time to put this "myth" to rest, for 9mm brass.

During the past decade, I kept reading posts from some members that R-P (Remington) headstamp brass have thinner walls. But in my testing and myth busting measurements where I checked neck tension by measurable/repeatable bullet setback feeding dummy rounds (no primer, no powder) from magazine, this was not the case as R-P/R-P "." brass tended to produce less bullet setback.

R-P brass having thinner walls may have been the case in decades past (And perhaps for 45ACP) but not for 9mm now.

All the 9mm cases I have measured in recent decade (Mostly once-fired brass I saw go from factory boxes to range floor, bright brass I collected from ground along with factory boxes at outdoor BLM shooting areas or bought from THR members as mostly "once-fired" range brass) at 4 positions around the case mouth (.100" below) and case neck (.200" below) at 12/3/6/9 O'clock have consistently and repeatedly showed R-P (And newer R-P ".") brass have thicker case wall on par with Starline/Winchester and I would not consider them to be "thinner" case wall brass.

In the "Myth Busting Neck Tension and Bullet Setback" thread, 12/3/6/9 O'clock measurements were made at .100" and .200" below case mouth.

Measurement #4 - Case Wall Thickness .100" below case mouth - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10712225​

​

Measurement #5 - Case Wall Thickness .200" below case mouth - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10713822​

​

All the measurements were summarized and averaged in this post - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10715550

Average Case Wall Thickness .100" Below Case Mouth (Thickest to thinnest):​

​

.0129" - PPU​

.0126" - S+B​

.01256" - CBC​

.0125" - HRTRS​

.0124" - Tulammo​

.0121" - GECO​

.0120" - PERFECTA​

.0119" - AGUILA​

.0116" - R-P​

.01158" - GFL​

.0115" - PMC​

.0111" - WIN​

.0110" - Starline​

.0108" - .FC.​

.0105" - SPEER​

.0104" - BLAZER​

​

​

Average Case Wall Thickness .200" Below Case Mouth (Around Bullet Seating Depth for HSM 115 gr RN at 1.130" OAL):​

​

.0144" - CBC​

.0138" - PPU​

.0137" - GECO​

.0135" - HRTRS​

.0135" - Tulammo​

.0133" - S+B​

.0132" - WIN​

.0131" - GFL​

.0130" - AGUILA​

.0130" - PERFECTA​

.01225" Starline​

.0122" - PMC​

.0121" - R-P​

.0115" - .FC.​

.0111" - SPEER​

.0110" - BLAZER​

​

But brass case wall thickness alone doesn't translate to neck tension as there are other factors such as malleability/ductility of brass alloy quality and to me, proof of this in "real world" application is measuring and repeating bullet setback.

And as you can see, .355" sized 115 gr plated RN bullet (Selected due to shorter bullet base compared to 124/147 gr RN bullets) loaded to 1.130" OAL that many reloaders may use in "real world" range blasting/plinking application, bullet setback measurements were summarized and averaged in below listing tested in Gen3 Glock 22/23 using KKM/Lone Wolf 40-9 conversion barrels - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10715550

Average Bullet Setback from Measurement #3 with Hunting Shack Munitions 115 gr plated RN at 1.130" OAL:​

​

.0000" - GECO​

.0000" - R-P​

.0000" - WIN​

.00008" - CBC​

.00008" - Tulammo​

.0001" - PERFECTA​

.0003" - GFL​

.0006" - PMC​

.0008" - BLAZER​

.0010" - .FC.​

CONCLUSION: This final post from "Myth Busting Neck Tension and Bullet Setback" thread demonstrated that R-P headstamp brass did not experience bullet setback with .354" sized Everglades 115 gr FMJ and .355" sized Hunting Shack Munitions 115 gr plated RN (Test continued with .3555" sized RMR 115 gr FMJ and .356" sized Zero 115 gr FMJ) all loaded to 1.130" OAL to once and for all, bust the myth that R-P 9mm brass has "thin" case wall - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4

Additional verification.

When I tested the new Lee Pro 6000 for finished OAL consistency in progressive mode (shellplate full), R-P and R-P "." brass produced least amount of OAL variance, further confirming case wall thickness and brass alloy quality - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...r-oal-consistency.911743/page-3#post-12446468

• RMR 115 gr FMJ RN sized around .3555" were used
• Case mouth was flared to .380" at Station #5 (Used .750" length resized case to set the flare amount)
• .378" taper crimp was used (Using .750" length resized case)
• Bullets were seated and taper crimped in same step at Station #6
• Blazer unsorted - OAL of 1.128"-1.133" (.005" variance)
• G.F.L. unsorted - OAL of 1.129"-1.133" (.004" variance)
• .FC. unsorted - OAL of 1.128"-1.131" (.003" variance)
• FC unsorted - OAL of 1.130"-1.132" (.002" variance)
• WIN unsorted - OAL of 1.131"-1.133" (.002" variance)
• R-P unsorted - OAL of 1.133"-1.134" (.001" variance)
• R-P "." unsorted - OAL of 1.134"-1.135" (.001" variance)

Further verification came when I tested 2023 Lee Pro 1000 for finished OAL consistency in progressive mode (shellplate full) and R-P and R-P "." brass produced .002" OAL variance with no bullet setback - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...pro-1000-unboxing.916672/page-2#post-12569726

• Blazer unsorted - OAL of 1.128"-1.131 (.003" variance)
• FC unsorted - OAL of 1.129"-1.132" (.003" variance)
• .FC. unsorted - OAL of 1.129"-1.131" (.002" variance)
• R-P unsorted - OAL of 1.132"-1.134" (.002" variance)
• R-P "." unsorted - OAL of 1.133"-1.135" (.002" variance)
• WIN unsorted - OAL of 1.133" (.000" variance)

Bullet setback test of finished rounds: (Test pistol Gen3 Glock 22 with KKM 40-9mm conversion barrel and 9mm 10 round factory magazine loaded with 5 rounds - OAL before - OAL after - Bullet setback):

• Blazer - 1.128" - 1.126" - .002"
• Blazer - 1.128" - 1.125" - .003"
• FC - 1.131" - 1.131" - .000"
• FC - 1.131" - 1.131" - .000"
• WIN - 1.133" - 1.133" - .000"
• WIN - 1.133" - 1.133" - .000"
• R-P - 1.134" - 1.134" - .000"
• R-P - 1.134" - 1.134" - .000"
• R-P "." - 1.134" - 1.134" - .000"
• R-P "." - 1.134" - 1.134" - .000"

Typically awesome!

 

[9mmepiphany]

I'm a believer.

I think my first leaning that way was due to less neck tension when I first started reloading...bullets would drop into the case mouth. Happened with some R-P .38Spl cases also that a buddy sized...but they worked fine after I ran them through my Redding Dual Ring Sizer

The beveled/rounded nature of R-P cases always threw me off too. I've been sorting them since and never gave it another thought

 

[243winxb]

All Dies do not size brass the same. Different brands of brass will spring back after sizing & expanding. (I tested 45acp)

My new manufactured 9mm Remington factory ammo, reloaded brass, has no problems holding my .356" cast bullets. Range brass works fine also, after close inspection. My Taurus G3C accuracy is about the same, factory fmj vs cast.

Lee must make the "Undersize" Sizing Die 9mm for a reason?

In the late 70s, Remington 45 acp brass allowed bullet set back with the RCBS die set i still use today.

 

[noylj]

I reject cases that fail bullet grip test using test thumb. Never been any consistent brand. Never found any except for 9x19.
Always do a push test after seating bullet

 

[higgite]

And all this time I thought I had some bad R-P brass because it was thicker than everybody else's R-P brass.

Good job, LL!

 

[LiveLife]

And all this time I thought I had some bad R-P brass because it was thicker than everybody else's R-P brass.

Good job, LL!

You and me both ... And I am sure along with a bunch of more THR members.

"Trust but verify" - That's why we do these "Myth Busting" threads with objective, measurable, repeatable data using calipers verified with pin gages and Brown & Sharpe micrometer - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-unlimited-budget.912629/page-2#post-12465906

 

[Ironicaintit]

I've never had an issue with 9mm R-P cases and neck tension.

Now, R-P in 45acp is another story altogether

 

[LiveLife]

I've never had an issue with 9mm R-P cases and neck tension.

Now, R-P in 45acp is another story altogether

Yes, I agree. I think that's where myth busted notion for 9mm R-P brass came from.

 

[lordpaxman]

I’m another range brass non head stamp sorter that did not find any issues with RP in 9mm. When doing load development I do sort a pile and use single HS just to try to limit the variables, and have always liked the unique HS RP has.

All the 9mm cases I have measured in recent decade

Just curious if you mean 2020 on, or 2010 on?

 

[AJC1]

I'm a believer.

I think my first leaning that way was due to less neck tension when I first started reloading...bullets would drop into the case mouth. Happened with some R-P .38Spl cases also that a buddy sized...but they worked fine after I ran them through my Redding Dual Ring Sizer

The beveled/rounded nature of R-P cases always threw me off too. I've been sorting them since and never gave it another thought

I'd be careful about using this provided data as anything other than just that specific case. I never had RP issues with 9 and there 308 brass is my preference. I need to do the work , but RP 357 is the only brass I have had collapse when seating cast 180s.

 

[LiveLife]

All the 9mm cases I have measured in recent decade

Just curious if you mean 2020 on, or 2010 on?

We bought our retirement property in 2014 and I gifted/PIF most of my brass in 5 gallon buckets that were collected going back 20 years before we moved.

All the brass I have are collected since and came from these sources:

• New RMR headstamp 9mm brass - https://www.rmrbullets.com/shop/cas...parabellum/9mm-luger-new-brass-rmr-cases-new/
• Factory new ammunition shot by me
• Factory new ammunition shot by others who joined me shooting
• Once-fired brass found on ground at BLM shooting areas next to matching factory boxes (50 shiny new cases found near factory box of same headstamp)
• Once-fired brass found on ground at BLM shooting areas without matching factory boxes (Shiny new cases with pristine case rim)
• RMR BrightFired 9mm brass mostly "once-fired" wet tumbled indoor range brass (No longer available) - https://www.rmrbullets.com/shop/cas...rabellum/9mm-luger-brightfired-brass-cases-1/
• Bought "once-fired" indoor range brass from bullseye match shooting member @ljnowell who buys from indoor range (One way to sort brass for bullseye match shooting to reduce flyers) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/brass-for-sale-9mm-380-45-40-il.820011/#post-10550945

I'd be careful about using this provided data as anything other than just that specific case. I never had RP issues with 9 and there 308 brass is my preference. I need to do the work , but RP 357 is the only brass I have had collapse when seating cast 180s.

Yes, this myth busting is specific to R-P/R-P "." headstamp 9mm cases shown at top right of picture below (Note rounded rim edge of R-P "." headstamp brass) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...3-lee-pro-1000-unboxing.916672/#post-12567479

 

[Atavar]

Here, you can copy this to make your typing easier — R•P
Lol

 

[LiveLife]

Here, you can copy this to make your typing easier — R•P

Nice ... Thanks!

 

[Atavar]

Interesting coincidence, that symbol is called a bullet.
This from an ASCII code chart

DEC	OCT	HEX	BIN	Symbol	HTML Number	HTML Name	Description​
149	225	95	10010101	•	•	•	Bullet

 

[LiveLife]

Interesting coincidence, that symbol is called a bullet ... from an ASCII code chart

Even better!

Wow, ASCII code ... flash back to High School programming days of building Apple II/IBM PC/XT clones before C++/Linux/Google/Amazon/Windows/Mac/Twitter/Facebook/My Space/Alta Vista even before AOL. I am getting old.

 

[lightman]

Very interesting!

I have a tubing micrometer and time on my hands. I may play around with this after while! But I've never noticed any problem loading RP brass. At least since I ditched the Herter's dies and bought RCBS.

 

[lordpaxman]

Although, technically, ASCII goes to 7F. Jeez, I’m older than you both….

 

[LiveLife]

I've never noticed any problem loading RP brass.

Neither have I for 9mm ... And why I decided to do this "myth busting" thread ... To end the notion that kept getting repeated once and for all with actual measurements and bullet setback test results.

Very interesting!

I have a tubing micrometer and time on my hands. I may play around with this after while!

Nice. Make sure to make multiple measurements around the case mouth/neck as I found case wall thickness is not always consistent and why I chose to take measurements at 12/3/6/9 O'clock positions.

Before you make measurements, consider the following from the myth busting thread - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10712225

Since some reloaders chamfer the inside of case mouth, instead of .050" depth, I took my measurements at .100" depth and four (4) times around the case neck at 12/3/6/9 O'clock.​

​

NOTE: Cases were full-length resized, flared and full-length resized again to straighten the brass at case mouth to eliminate measuring of residual taper crimp/bent case mouth.​

 

[mdi]

Interesting thread. As long as I have visited reloading forums, some brass has been described as "thin walled" and problematic for neck tension. But I often just considered this "nit picking" with little impact on reloading. I have been reloading 9mm for a while and most often use mixed brass (when doing a load work up I sort by headstamp). I inspect every case before reloading and glance at headstamp, but most cases go in the same pile (I have found one mfg. with very tight primer pockets so I set them aside). I have 5, 9mm handguns and have reloaded thousands of rounds, most with my "funky" old Lee dies, without regard to "wall thickness" and have tested many handloads for neck tension (I don't crimp semi-auto handloads). Never a problem for me...

 

[45/30-06OKIE]

I didn't want to hijack another thread so starting a new thread - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/sort-9mm-by-headstamp.921531/#post-12682339


Time to put this "myth" to rest, for 9mm brass.

During the past decade, I kept reading posts from some members that R-P (Remington) headstamp brass have thinner walls. But in my testing and myth busting measurements where I checked neck tension by measurable/repeatable bullet setback feeding dummy rounds (no primer, no powder) from magazine, this was not the case as R-P/R-P "." brass tended to produce less bullet setback.

R-P brass having thinner walls may have been the case in decades past (And perhaps for 45ACP) but not for 9mm now.

All the 9mm cases I have measured in recent decade (Mostly once-fired brass I saw go from factory boxes to range floor, bright brass I collected from ground along with factory boxes at outdoor BLM shooting areas or bought from THR members as mostly "once-fired" range brass) at 4 positions around the case mouth (.100" below) and case neck (.200" below) at 12/3/6/9 O'clock have consistently and repeatedly showed R-P (And newer R-P ".") brass have thicker case wall on par with Starline/Winchester and I would not consider them to be "thinner" case wall brass.

In the "Myth Busting Neck Tension and Bullet Setback" thread, 12/3/6/9 O'clock measurements were made at .100" and .200" below case mouth.

Measurement #4 - Case Wall Thickness .100" below case mouth - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10712225​

​

Measurement #5 - Case Wall Thickness .200" below case mouth - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10713822​

​

All the measurements were summarized and averaged in this post - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10715550

Average Case Wall Thickness .100" Below Case Mouth (Where taper crimp is applied):​

​

.0129" - PPU​

.0126" - S+B​

.01256" - CBC​

.0125" - HRTRS​

.0124" - Tulammo​

.0121" - GECO​

.0120" - PERFECTA​

.0119" - AGUILA​

.0116" - R-P​

.01158" - GFL​

.0115" - PMC​

.0111" - WIN​

.0110" - Starline​

.0108" - .FC.​

.0105" - SPEER​

.0104" - BLAZER​

​

​

Average Case Wall Thickness .200" Below Case Mouth (Where most neck tension is applied to hold bullet ... Around Bullet Seating Depth for HSM 115 gr RN at 1.130" OAL):​

​

.0144" - CBC​

.0138" - PPU​

.0137" - GECO​

.0135" - HRTRS​

.0135" - Tulammo​

.0133" - S+B​

.0132" - WIN​

.0131" - GFL​

.0130" - AGUILA​

.0130" - PERFECTA​

.01225" Starline​

.0122" - PMC​

.0121" - R-P​

.0115" - .FC.​

.0111" - SPEER​

.0110" - BLAZER​

​

But brass case wall thickness alone doesn't translate to neck tension as there are other factors such as malleability/ductility of brass alloy strength/quality and to me, proof of this in "real world" application is measuring and repeating bullet setback.

And as you can see, .355" sized 115 gr plated RN bullet (Selected due to shorter bullet base compared to 124/147 gr RN bullets) loaded to 1.130" OAL that many reloaders may use in "real world" range blasting/plinking application, bullet setback measurements were summarized and averaged in below listing tested in Gen3 Glock 22/23 using KKM/Lone Wolf 40-9 conversion barrels - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10715550

Average Bullet Setback from Measurement #3 with Hunting Shack Munitions 115 gr plated RN at 1.130" OAL:​

​

.0000" - GECO​

.0000" - R-P​

.0000" - WIN​

.00008" - CBC​

.00008" - Tulammo​

.0001" - PERFECTA​

.0003" - GFL​

.0006" - PMC​

.0008" - BLAZER​

.0010" - .FC.​

CONCLUSION: This final post from "Myth Busting Neck Tension and Bullet Setback" thread demonstrated that R-P headstamp brass did not experience bullet setback with .354" sized Everglades 115 gr FMJ and .355" sized Hunting Shack Munitions 115 gr plated RN (Test continued with .3555" sized RMR 115 gr FMJ and .356" sized Zero 115 gr FMJ) all loaded to 1.130" OAL to once and for all, bust the myth that R-P 9mm brass has "thin" case wall - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4

Additional verification.

When I tested the new Lee Pro 6000 for finished OAL consistency in progressive mode (shellplate full), R-P and R-P "." brass produced least amount of OAL variance, further confirming case wall thickness and brass alloy strength/quality - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...r-oal-consistency.911743/page-3#post-12446468

• RMR 115 gr FMJ RN sized around .3555" were used
• Case mouth was flared to .380" at Station #5 (Used .750" length resized case to set the flare amount)
• .378" taper crimp was applied (Used .750" length resized case)
• Bullets were seated and taper crimped in same step at Station #6
• Blazer unsorted - OAL of 1.128"-1.133" (.005" variance)
• G.F.L. unsorted - OAL of 1.129"-1.133" (.004" variance)
• .FC. unsorted - OAL of 1.128"-1.131" (.003" variance)
• FC unsorted - OAL of 1.130"-1.132" (.002" variance)
• WIN unsorted - OAL of 1.131"-1.133" (.002" variance)
• R-P unsorted - OAL of 1.133"-1.134" (.001" variance)
• R-P "." unsorted - OAL of 1.134"-1.135" (.001" variance)

Further verification came when I tested 2023 Lee Pro 1000 for finished OAL consistency in progressive mode (shellplate full) and R-P and R-P "." brass produced .002" OAL variance with no bullet setback - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...pro-1000-unboxing.916672/page-2#post-12569726

• Blazer unsorted - OAL of 1.128"-1.131 (.003" variance)
• FC unsorted - OAL of 1.129"-1.132" (.003" variance)
• .FC. unsorted - OAL of 1.129"-1.131" (.002" variance)
• R-P unsorted - OAL of 1.132"-1.134" (.002" variance)
• R-P "." unsorted - OAL of 1.133"-1.135" (.002" variance)
• WIN unsorted - OAL of 1.133" (.000" variance)

Bullet setback test of finished rounds: (Test pistol Gen3 Glock 22 with KKM 40-9mm conversion barrel and 9mm 10 round factory magazine loaded with 5 rounds - OAL before - OAL after - Bullet setback):

• Blazer - 1.128" - 1.126" - .002"
• Blazer - 1.128" - 1.125" - .003"
• FC - 1.131" - 1.131" - .000"
• FC - 1.131" - 1.131" - .000"
• WIN - 1.133" - 1.133" - .000"
• WIN - 1.133" - 1.133" - .000"
• R-P - 1.134" - 1.134" - .000"
• R-P - 1.134" - 1.134" - .000"
• R-P "." - 1.134" - 1.134" - .000"
• R-P "." - 1.134" - 1.134" - .000"

Me and @JmacD have both complained about RP brass in the what did you do in the reloading room today thread and it seems like it's a systemic issue with RP brass. It seems like their 45 Auto brass in my experience isn't very good at having much tension. They are extremely easy to size and seat bullets in compared to Federal and Winchester. I haven't had much experience with their rifle brass but Jmac has...

 

[LiveLife]

Me and @JmacD have both complained about RP brass in the what did you do in the reloading room today thread and it seems like it's a systemic issue with RP brass ... 45 Auto brass

No disagreement regarding R-P 45ACP brass. Now that Alliant/Federal/CCI/Speer bought Remington Ammunition, perhaps that will be addressed.

But this myth busting thread is about 9mm case wall thickness and I have presented my objective, measurable, repeatable data along with bullet setback measurements to bust the myth that 9mm R•P/R•P "•" headstamp brass has thin case wall. (Thank you @Atavar for the "•" )