Renting Guns For Profit-Need an FFL?

[bushmaster1313]

Could a non-FFL legally operate a business renting out high quality hunting rifles in the same way high end cars are rented, if he only shipped to FFL's and received them back through an FFL?

I think this is the statute:
(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A) [18 USCS § 921(a)(11)(A)], a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.

Would renting be "the repetitive purchase and sale of firearms"?

It would be repetitive and it would be for profit, but is it purchase and sale?

P.S. I am not going to be the person to try it!

 

[JohnKSa]

The renters would have to fill out a 4473 and undergo a NICS to claim the firearms. I don't believe the FFLs will transfer possession otherwise.

Here's what I think would have to happen in the general case.

Each rental would require a lot of paperwork. The business owner would ship it to an FFL on the other end who would transfer (transfer = 4473 + NICS) it to the renter. The renter would bring it back to that FFL and the FFL would take possession of it by entering it back into his book. Then that FFL would sent it to an FFL local to the business owner who would transfer (transfer = 4473 + NICS) it back to the business owner.

Some potential issues that I see:

1. How would the business owner retrieve a firearm that a renter decided not to return?

2. What's the potential for civil liability action against the business owner if an incompetent renter kills/injures himself or another with a firearm rented from the business owner.

 

[dogtown tom]

Possibly.

And yes, you would have to complete a 4473 and NICS check EVERY time that gun came back to your FFL.

 

[CapnMac]

I'd guess that the business model would be as complicated as in renting cars.
And with similar sorts of having to collect and vet the renter's documentation.

Just as you have to present a DL, and insurance info to rent a car.

Probably similar problems in renting arms as in renting cars. The rental agencies are often left holding the bag for automated citations like Red-Light Cameras, Speed Cameras and the like.

Which poses a question of what happens if a renter gets done for illegal CCW, or brandishing, or any of the other 19,998 gun regulations out there?

Also, what about the equivalent to a car wreck? Dropping that o/u in the lake at the duck blind; or a squib; or falling out of a tree stand? All of that before secondary hazards, like fires, natural disasters, and the like.

As a guess, the company would have to be more of an insurance provider that had a sideline of renting out shooters.

 

[Frank Ettin]

If someone actually wanted to do something like this, the way to find out would be to have a savvy lawyer write ATF and ask for a ruling.

It is common in business when a novel question like this comes up to ask the proper administrative agency, in writing, for a written opinion. One then has an opinion from the right source on which he will be able to reply. I did this sort of thing for clients (but not with ATF) on a regular basis, and it's the best approach in real life.

If this is just an intellectual exercise there is probably no good way to come up an answer one can be confident is correct.

 

[bushmaster1313]

If this is just an intellectual exercise there is probably no good way to come up an answer one can be confident is correct.

I agree.

My guess is that the BATFE would treat a Gun Rental Agency as a dealer in firearms requiring an FFL.

However, there would be good reason to argue that an FFL is not required. For example, I would guess that a car rental agency is probably not a "Car Dealer" under many state laws.

I would not want to chance it even with a letter from the BATFE.

 

[medalguy]

I disagree, I don't think a FFL would be required as long as every possession transfer was done by/through a FFL. After all the OP isn't "selling" any firearms, he's transferring it to a FFL so the FFL can do the 4473, much the same as an individual sending a firearm INTRASTATE to an FFL for final delivery to a purchaser. INTERSTATE would be much more complicated in this scenario as the OP couldn't retrieve the firearm except through another FFL in his state, and he would then need to complete a 4473 every time.

I agree I wouldn't want to try it either, for several reasons, including BATFE, liability, insurance, and the sheer cost, and the possibility of not getting the firearm back at all.

 

[JohnKSa]

Just as you have to present a DL, and insurance info to rent a car.

The problem is that "gun user insurance" is not common and there's not really any DL equivalent for gun owners that says there is a state that vouches for the holder's basic ability and legality to operate a vehicle.

 

[Blackrock]

Lots of Trap and Skeet ranges have rental shotguns available for shooters. Never saw any FFL paperwork involved. Indoor pistol range in Tucson has rental pistols and revolvers. No paperwork there either just a valid ID and pay the fee.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I would not want to chance it even with a letter from the BATFE.

If the request for an opinion is properly done (which is why you want to use a lawyer who knows how to frame such a request), and if you follow the agency letter, you'd be okay. When an administrative agency issues an opinion of this sort, it is expected that it will, and can, be relied upon; and a court would find it binding on the agency.

Lots of Trap and Skeet ranges have rental shotguns available for shooters. ... Indoor pistol range in Tucson has rental pistols and revolvers....

Those guns are being used on the premises. The OP's question appears to contemplate the gun being taken away for use and later returned.

 

[hermannr]

Rentals and loans of firearms to residents or non-residents of your state, but physically within your state of operation, do not require paperwork. (Think of firearm rentals at a range, works the same for hunting rifles.)

Once your firearm is shipped out of state, that part I do not know and will not guess. Remember, a rental is NOT a sale. You do not give ownership of the weapon, only the right to use for a lawful purpose.

The advice that was given,,,get a lawyer to ask the controlling agency for an official ruling,,,is probably the best advice here.

I think insurance on something like this would be a real expensive pain though.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

The only gun rental I know of is for use on a shooting range for a short period of time, with the guns never leaving the premises and with the guns staying in possession of the owner.

A "gun rental" for field use, given the federal laws on transfer of possession of firearms, would be a business model much more complicated than car rental.

 

[dogtown tom]

hermannr Rentals and loans of firearms to residents or non-residents of your state, but physically within your state of operation, do not require paperwork. (Think of firearm rentals at a range, works the same for hunting rifles.)

Absolutely, 100% wrong. Wrong as in felony wrong. Wrong as in a dealer losing his FFL wrong.
If you are a dealer and transfer possession of a firearm to ANYONE.....you darn well better have them complete a 4473 and pass NICS, the only exception being the return of a firearm that was repaired.

The temporary loan of a firearm (as in gun range rentals) does not require a 4473/NICS as the firearms are still under the control and possession of the licensee. If you loan a gun to someone to take on a hunting trip (even if for an hour) and the firearm leaves your licensed premises........the "borrower" would be required to complete a 4473/NICS. This is because it is a transfer of possession and "paperwork" IS REQUIRED by Federal law.

If the "borrower" is not a resident of the same state as the dealer only rifles and shotguns may be transferred.....even if temporary.

Once your firearm is shipped out of state, that part I do not know and will not guess. Remember, a rental is NOT a sale. You do not give ownership of the weapon, only the right to use for a lawful purpose.

:banghead:
Whether it is a sale, trade, gift, loan, rental or whatever......all are transfers and require 4473/NICS if transferred out of state.

 

[hermannr]

The OP asked if he needed an FFL to rent a firearm. I said, and I still say, NO, you do not need an FFL or an FFL transfer to loan or rent a firearm, specifically in my state. Ownership has not changed with a rental, if ownership does not change, and if a resident of my state, even ownership can change, without an FFL. But with a rental or loan, ownership does not change.

Now, if you read what I said, you will see I stated that if the firearm goes out of the state I am in, it MAY be different, but then again it may not...I do not know.

Now if you are an FFL, the answer may be different, but he specifically stated he was not an FFL.

Rent or loan for temporary use, has no time definition on "temporary". As was said before, as an ffl, your milage may be different, but as joe citizen, I know I can loan, have loaned, and have received in loan from others, firearms to hunt with. No FFL transfer necessary. Loan, or rental, no difference, ownership has not changed.

 

[dogtown tom]

hermannr ...NO, you do not need an FFL or an FFL transfer to loan or rent a firearm, specifically in my state. Ownership has not changed with a rental, if ownership does not change, and if a resident of my state, even ownership can change, without an FFL. But with a rental or loan, ownership does not change....

Again, it has NOTHING to do with "ownership", but the legal transfer of a firearm.

If you loan or rent a firearm you "own" to a resident of another state and he returns to his state you and he have violated Federal law.

 

[Bubbles]

We rent firearms, including machine guns, by the hour, half day, day, or longer.

We take the guns to a range and physically stay with them while the renter gets to play with them.

Then we take them home.

There is no way we would consider shipping even a Title I firearm to any renter.

 

[Hondo 60]

Lots of Trap and Skeet ranges have rental shotguns available for shooters. Never saw any FFL paperwork involved. Indoor pistol range in Tucson has rental pistols and revolvers. No paperwork there either just a valid ID and pay the fee.

Yes, but those are FTF transactions.
This is talking about renting a rifle where the transaction maybe FTF or maybe via the internet.

 

[hermannr]

Again, we are talking about a non-FFL.

It is totally legal for me to SELL a pistol to an 18 year old.

It is not legal for an FFL to SELL a pistol to anyone under 21.

FFL rules are different from Joe Citizen rules.

Example (real, happened)...the pastor of our church wanted to hunt antilope. I have a Rem 700BDL in .264 Win Mag. Purchased that gun in 1964 specifically for hunting antilope, super optics, very accurate. Pastor asked if he could borrow my rifle to hunt antilope in another state, as it was a better gun for the purpose than his .308.

I loaned him that rifle and he had possession of it for approximately 2 months. He shot his antilope in another state. SO WHAT? big deal. There was nothing illegal about any part of that.

So, now when he gets back from his hunting trip he gives us some of the meat. You could call that "rent" if you wish.

Now, could an FFL do that? I have no idea, I am not an FFL.

 

[leadcounsel]

Setting aside the legal aspects of the rental and return to unknown people/ strangers of unknown intent, this would be a TERRIBLE business idea/model.

Possible (likely) ramifications - abuse of the weapon, damage to the weapon, possession or transfer to prohibited person (out of state, felon, person with domestic violence restraining order/conviction, etc.) criminal activity committed with the weapon (robbery, murder, lending it to a felon, unlawful carry of concealed weapon, etc.) which could result in confiscation of said weapon, civil liability for stray bullets fired from said weapon, etc.

Ask yourself what type of clientelle can't muster the $500 or $1000 to buy their own gun? For what purpose does someone need to legitimately "borrow" or "rent" guns so frequently that you could make a sustainable business? The answer is largely for unsavory people who can't otherwise buy them.

For the few dollars you'd expect to make on each transaction, a paper route would likely be more profitable in the long run.

 

[dogtown tom]

hermannr Again, we are talking about a non-FFL.
It is totally legal for me to SELL a pistol to an 18 year old.
It is not legal for an FFL to SELL a pistol to anyone under 21.
FFL rules are different from Joe Citizen rules.

No argument with that. Where you advocated a Federal crime was in post #11 where you wrote:

Rentals and loans of firearms to residents or non-residents of your state, but physically within your state of operation, do not require paperwork. (Think of firearm rentals at a range, works the same for hunting rifles.)

It is a violation of Federal law for a nonlicensee to transfer possession of ANY firearm to someone who is not a resident of the same state. Your analogy of range rental vs hunting rifles is not accurate. "Range rentals" typically NEVER leave the range.....rent a hunting rifle and you'll do a 4473 and a NICS. No range or dealer is going to let you take a firearm off premises without a legal transfer taking place.

While your example of your loan to your pastor is legal, if that two month "loan" was to an out of state resident who returned to his state for hunting....it would be illegal. If the out of stater had stayed in your state for his two month hunting trip you would still be on thin ice as ATF would argue that two months is not "temporary".

 

[hermannr]

Will you please tell how those two statements differ? They don't BTW.

My BIL comes down from Canada and wants to hunt. (BC isn't even a different state, it is a different country) We purchase hunting licenses, I loan him a rifle, and we go out to hunt. The first day I fall and break my leg.

Is my BIL's hunt over because I am not with him? Do I have to transfer ownership to he so he can "possess" the rifle? I don't think so.

If you want to look for the answer it is in RCW 9.41 Washington state revised codes.

Your whole problem is you are an FFL, and because of that license you have to follow certain rules...rules that are for you and your business, not joe citizen.

Here is a quote directly from the ATF Q&A site :A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law

 

[dogtown tom]

I hope you get a nice cellmate.

 

[hermannr]

You didn't even read what I quoted from the BATFE Q&A did you.

well, not my problem.

 

[Bubbles]

Ask yourself what type of clientelle can't muster the $500 or $1000 to buy their own gun? For what purpose does someone need to legitimately "borrow" or "rent" guns so frequently that you could make a sustainable business? The answer is largely for unsavory people who can't otherwise buy them.

Actually the OP said high-end guns, so I'd figure on a starting price of $5k and going up from there.

There are folks out there who rent guns. For the most part they're going to be 1) FFL's who have "range guns" for use at their facility, or 2) FFL's who travel with the guns to the renter's location or shooting range, e.g. the twice-annual KCR machine gun shoots.