Reply from BATF regarding Thompson Encore question

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Does a SCOTUS decision not trump a bureaucrat's opinion?
Bureaucrats have no problem ignoring the founding document of this country, what makes you think they'd have any qualms about ignoring a supreme court ruling?

Sure, you'd probably win in court, but it'd cost you alot of money, time, and a gigantic headache.
 
I think the BATFE letter is pretty clear.
You can install a sixteen inch or longer barrel on your pistol frame and then install a folding rifle type stock, effectively converting the pistol into a carbione length rifle.

You cannot install a barrel shorter than sixteen inches on the frame with the folding stock also in place as this turns the firearm into a short barrel rifle.

You may install a pistol grip and a barrel shorter or longer than 16 inches on the frame effective reconverting the weapon back to the original pistol specifications.

If you T/C Encore was originally purchased as a carbine/rifle, and serial numbered as a carbine/rifle frame you may not convert the rifle to a pistol using a short barrel and a pistol grip as this violates the law concerning manufacture of a pistol from a rifle.

If your Encore frame was originally purchased as a pistol and serial numbered in a block as a pistol intended frame, you may convert it to rifle specifications.
There is no law preventing this.
 
I think the BATFE letter is pretty clear.
You can install a sixteen inch or longer barrel on your pistol frame and then install a folding rifle type stock, effectively converting the pistol into a carbione length rifle.

You cannot install a barrel shorter than sixteen inches on the frame with the folding stock also in place as this turns the firearm into a short barrel rifle.

You may install a pistol grip and a barrel shorter or longer than 16 inches on the frame effective reconverting the weapon back to the original pistol specifications.

If you T/C Encore was originally purchased as a carbine/rifle, and serial numbered as a carbine/rifle frame you may not convert the rifle to a pistol using a short barrel and a pistol grip as this violates the law concerning manufacture of a pistol from a rifle.

If your Encore frame was originally purchased as a pistol and serial numbered in a block as a pistol intended frame, you may convert it to rifle specifications.
There is no law preventing this.

Onmilo you must have just totaly missed the most important part of the letter:

In the situation you present, the attachment of a folding shoulder stock to a pistol having a barrel length of 16 inches or greater would be lawful as long as the overall length of the resulting firearm is at least 26 inches with the stock fully extended. We caution that, because the configuration you have specified results in the manufacture of a rifle, a subsequent reconfiguration of the firearm to a pistol configuration would result in a weapon made from a rifle, which is a weapon controlled by the National Firearms Act (NFA).

This letter clearly states it is in fact illegal to take your legal pistol, turn it legaly into a carbine, and then remove the parts that turned it into a carbine and make it a pistol once again.

This of course is merely this "John R. Spencer Chief, Firearms Technology Branch's" opinion, and may be trumped by a supreme court decision, but it is in fact the agency given the authority to interprete the law on firearms. So you can be more right and still wrong at the same time.
This interpretation is at odds with both the court case and previous statements by the ATF or BATFE.
However if it is an official letter by the people tasked with interpreting and applying the laws, you could still find yourself charged and arrested by enjoying multiple configurations, which are all themselves legal, but the conversion back from carbine to pistol of a firearm originaly a pistol being illegal.

According to this interpretation simply attaching the parts is manufacture of a rifle, turning the legal pistol into a rifle. You then legaly have a rifle which you manufactured, and can only legaly make things from it that are legal to make from a rifle. Since making a pistol from a rifle is illegal, that means you could not unconvert it.

So they are in fact saying it is legal in all forms. It is however only legal to convert one way. What that means to you as a gun owner is that if there is ever a picture (like the security footage at most ranges) or a witness that proves it was at any time made into a carbine, that documents it in carbine format, it will then be a felony for you to ever be seen or have it in pistol format from then on because that alone will prove you illegaly made an NFA weapon, subjecting you to prison time and felony charges.
 
AS I read what ATF has said (and you can take my opinion with a cup of salt):

If you remove the folding stock with the "rifle" barrel still attached and put a pistol grip on it, you have made a under-26" rifle and that is NFA.

Remove the folding stock, remove the "RIFLE" barrel, attach a pistol barrel and a pistol stock and you have a pistol. Of course, that is me following the logic of the afore-mentioned Supreme Court ruling on the Thompson carbine kit. ATF opinions will vary in both directions.
 
the "rifle" barrel still attached

1. The original question asked about a handgun with a permanently attached 16" barrel.

2. There is no maximum length for a handgun barrel. You can have a 100" barrel if you desire and it is still a handgun.
 
The Thompson Encore is a pistol with a 15" removable barrel.
http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/encorePistols.php
The original poster said permanently attached muzzle break to make a 16" overall length barrel. The barrel would still be removable.

The original Thompson center pistol/carbine conversion that was the
object of a Supreme Court ruling consisted of a kit: rifle stock and
rifle barrel that swapped out the pistol grip and pistol barrel.

ATF has a rule that once a barrel has been installed on a rifle,
it cannot be used on a pistol. Somehow, installing the folding stock
on the 16" barreled Thompson Encore makes that barrel a rifle barrel
that cannot be used again on a pistol.

But following the logic of the SCOTUS ruling, the Thompson Encore
pistol frame without rifle stock or rifle barrel would become
a pistol with a pistol barrel and pistol grip installed.

The hookah smoking caterpillar is giving me a call . . . to follow
Alice and the White Rabbit. Trying to figure out what the ATF means
by its rules is mind-warping.
 
It has long been maintained that pistols can be converted back and forth. Mec-tec has made carbine kits for a long time, Beretta has (had?) the Neos Carbine kit, etc.

Onmillo had it right.

This is the first time any of us had heard this interpretation, and it is not in line with the NFA or SCOTUS rulings.

As has also been stated, it was silly to write ATF about this.

On that note, I just can't see ATF wasting time and resources chasing T/C contender owners on bogus manufacturing and constructive possession charges where it is their word against yours that the parts were ever installed in an illegal configuration. I could be wrong, though.
 
Again, let me suggest logic and common sense. There is absolutely no way that an ATF agent or anyone else can ever know if a Contender or Encore pistol has ever been a rifle or not, and the ATF well knows this. So, don't rock the boat by pestering the ATF over the matter. Only bad can come of it.
 
If your Encore frame was originally purchased as a pistol and serial numbered in a block as a pistol intended frame, you may convert it to rifle specifications.
There is no law preventing this.
This is exactly why I specifically bought an Encore PISTOL frame as I wanted the option to convert between both.

This issue was settled years ago in "United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Co." It was a 5-4 decision, but was in our favor.

As a CYA measure I intend to always have the pistol stock with the gun.
 
The reason this matters is that I was considering the purchase of one or two frames for my Encore set up. If I have one frame and all of the aperatus to configure it as a pistol or a rifle this would be construed as "intent", and the assumption would be that it had AT SOME POINT been "manufactured" as a rifle and subsequently reconfigured as a pistol. To be safe I believe it is best to have two receivers registered as a pistol and a rifle.

In light of some of the legal information posted here perhaps I should reply to Mr. Spencer and ask him to clarify his answer in light of the case law.

PS - I had sought an answer to this question here:http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=4065054#post4065054, and also the same subject is BANNED at SpecialtyPistols. That is why I finally wrote to the BATF.
 
http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=239
BATFpg1.gif

BATFpg2.gif
 
That response is inconsistent with previous BATFE rulings, specifically addressing Thompson Contender firearms. The basic rule, as I understand it, is that a firearm that began life as a rifle cannot be converted into a pistol without going through the paperwork to register it as a short-barreled rifle. However, a firearm that began life as a pistol can be converted into a rifle and then back with impunity. The "gotcha" is that, when attaching a shoulder stock, the barrel must be at least 16" and the overall length has to be __?__ in order to avoid having a short-barreled rifle.

The same situation attaches to those 16" barrels and detachable should stock kits for the 1911. As long as you use both together, you create a carbine. Attach just the shoulder stock with the standard 5" barrel and you have an NFA weapon. But once you use the kit, there's nothing that says you can't put the firearm back to the original, 5" 1911 configuration.
 
Thats not my letter it was posted on Mike Bellm's site.
I do not have a link to another letter that I have seen before
that states that once a buttstock is mated to a receiver
the ATF considers the receiver a rifle even if the receiver started out as a pistol:Therefore, making the receiver a rifle forever in their view. Untill the SCOTUS declares different, their policy stands as
crazy as it is. Your right, it does implicate pistol conversion kits
like mech tech, but its the end user that can get nailed not the kit seller
 
My read of Chief Spencer's letter is once a rifle always a rifle and if shortened it is a NFA issue. Once a pistol not always a pistol.... meaning if you convert a pistol to a rifle, you can not convert it back to a pistol.

The interpretation of the Supreme Court decision on US vs Thompson Center Arms seems to indicate just the opposite. Once a pistol, always a pistol.

If it were me, I'd write another letter to BATF with very specific questions regarding the conversion and the parts issue. I would refer them to the Supreme Court decision so that the two are intertwined in their response (if possible).

The answers would be important to the AR15 machine pistol topic which I current go with "once a rifle, always a rifle" (if it is converted it is a NFA issue as I understand it) and "once a pistol, always a pistol" unless it is converted to a rifle or what?

There is also the issue of just bringing it up, you are rocking the boat and forcing an interpretation that may or may not be favorable to your perspective. I do believe that the BATF has better things to do than hanging out at ranges looking for a TC pistol converted to a rifle and observe it being reconfigured into a pistol for the sake of presecution of an otherwise honest law abiding citizen. I guess I still have the notion that the BATF tries to be fair.

This kind of thing really frightens me from a legal perspective. I would not want the aggrevation and hence have two; one rifle and one pistol.
 
I have been told that it is illegal to use a pistol with a barrel length of over 16" in Illinois for deer hunting.

Is it illegal to have a pistol with a barrel length longer than 16" in Illinois?
Is it legal to hunt with a pistol with a barrel length longer than 16" in Illinois?

Could somebody clear this up for me once and fro all?
Thanks
 
I have noticed a tendency by folks here to either misread BATFE information and letters or to read into them something they do not say, then castigate BATFE for supposed inconsistencies or errors.

In this case, the letter clearly says that it is OK to build a rifle with a folding stock, but a "SUBSEQUENT RECONFIGURATION" to convert it back to a pistol (barrel shortened or a short barrel installed), it becomes an NFA firearm. That is surely not new to anyone.

Maybe the words "subsequent reconfiguraton" are just too big. Maybe they should have used words of one syllable.

Jim
 
They really aught to just strike SBRs from the NFA and get rid of all this nonsense. But then they couldn't prosecute so many innocent folks for installing a shoulder stock before a longer barrel, and putting them away for 10 or more years in federal prison because of it.
 
Or, the not recommended route in any way as it could get you in a bad place, would be "what the BATFE doesn't know won't hurt them."

Could hurt you, though.

I wish it were that simple... *sigh*

I would recommend leaving the pistol/rifle/thing be and relieving yourself of this headache.

An encore pistol with a collapsible stock? Awesome!

But not worth all of the BS.

Find a non-BARFE related way of making a pistol-like rifle.
 
The fact that it took @ 10 weeks for them to get back with me indicates that they didn't have a ready and clear answer.
I had a recent tech branch letter take 8 months.:eek:

The response regarding it being an SBR if the stock is removed is not a new one. They have been providing it for sometime now. It makes sense- once a rifle, always a rifle.
 
Here is a letter where the ATF says that the Supreme Court decision in Thompson applies only to the Thompson kits.

Convert1.gif

Convert2.gif
 
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To muddy the waters further-
Given the BATFE's wide and broad interpretations of the law, if you had a Thompson-Center in pistol configuration, and another Thompson-Center in rifle configuration, plus a caliber conversion for the pistol (with short barrel), would it not be possibly constructive possession because you had a rifle receiver and a short barrel to fit that rifle receiver (even if not mounted) as they have already prosecuted people for in other variations?


G-D they make this s***(stuff) needlessly complicated...
 
I don't think you would be. If that were true, that would also mean that if you had an M-16 MG with a 14.5" barrel, a 10.5" upper for it, and a Title 1 AR-15, they could say that you were in constructive possession of an unregistered SBR.

I believe that you have to have a lawful method to assemble all your uppers and lowers, but no at the same time. In other words, if you have an AR-15 pistol and two short uppers for it, and you also own a full-size Title 1 AR-15, that is OK.

What is not OK is when you have a shorty upper, and no MG, no SBR, no Pistol, and no way to mount that upper, but you DO own an AR-15 with a rifle length barrel.
 
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