Respect (or lack there of) for older Gun Writers

[Miami_JBT]

I came up reading and usually rereading, again and again, all the usual suspects of the past. Used the analog internet (rotary dial landline telephone, Shotgun News and The Gun List) quite heavily too.

Old or new, there's really nothing different, as long as you keep investing in your education and continue to learn. One thing I picked up on pretty quick at work as technology worked its way into everything was, the old ways worked, and the new ways could and did make life easier, and if you were a follower of Bruce Lee (another dead guy from the past who was on to something ), you learned that old and new could be blended together and take you to the next level ahead of those who chose only one way or the other. I don't see any difference there in anything either, including firearms, their accessories, and the techniques used.

The trick will always be, learn as much as you can about as much as you can, and take from all that, what is useful to you, make it yours, and always continue to move forward.

Lots of the old ways work, and work well, but things also change, and if you don't keep up, you'll stagnate, and get left behind.

Cooper is a prime example of what is good about the past, and what isn't so good about getting stuck there. He was innovative and at the time, a lot of us jumped right on that train and went for the ride. Some of us got off when we saw things and others progressing elsewhere, and moved forward, while others are still on the Copper train, in an endless circle, stuck in the past.

Following the Bruce Lee philosophy, you take what you learned from him that is still relevant to you, and discard what isn't and keep moving forward. And that goes for anything and everything else.

Ayoob is the same way, and I think a lot if not most of his stuff is still relevant, but again, things change, and you need to continue to learn and keep up to know what to keep and what to discard.

With any of this, young or old, you only know what you know. Older guys have a bit of an edge there, at least if they have been paying attention and doing their homework, and can have things learned in the past to draw on, where the younger guys don't, but just because you didn't learn the "old ways" of doing things, doesn't mean you don't know whats what either, and old or young, if you don't continue to keep up, all you will know is the old ways.

Well said señor.

 

[trackskippy]

Keyboard commandos where going to the grocery store is traveling outside the wire...

Where have you been? Just going or being "anywhere" these days, is going outside the wire.

 

[Miami_JBT]

He used to be an active member here. But internet experts with no more experience than the ability to type drove him away. You can only argue with the ignorant for so long...

 

[JohnKSa]

Common problems people have:

• Dismissing people who disagree with them basing the dismissal purely on the disagreement and not on content.
  • This also includes dismissing everything someone says because they get one thing wrong or because some of their information is outdated.
• Agreeing with people who agree with them based purely on the agreement and not on content.
  • This also includes agreeing with everything someone says because they get one thing right or because some of their information is relevant.
• Failure to be able to understand context. For example, the ruminations of a guy whose experience is poaching game in Africa three quarters of a century ago with big bore rifles are highly unlikely to be relevant to modern handgun self-defense. On the other hand, at least some of that information is likely going to be very useful to someone hunting Africa with a big bore rifle.

I don't believe I've ever read a gunwriter who never had anything worthwhile to say. I also don't believe I've ever read one who didn't get at least one thing wrong.

 

[doubleh]

I had my favorites and some I payed little attention to. I was never a big fan of Keith, Cooper, or Askins. I subscribe to many gun magazines in olden times but today it's mostly youtube and I have a hard time with all the blather and hot air many of them spew. Some are informative, most are not. I am not a beat around the bush person. Say what you have to say on the subject and be done with it. Paul Harrel was pretty good at getting that done. Hickock 45 uses 100 words to say 10. I don't really dislike him but he wears me out with all his talk.

I have recently been reading stories by old time hunters of man eating lions, tigers, leopards, rogue elephants, and even dangerous bears from the late 1800's up until the 1950's lately. These are found on Amazon pretty cheaply and I have to admire the grit and bravery of each author. Also the description of Africa and India and the native populations in that era are informative. Call them hair raising hunting, geography, and history rolled into one story at a time. There isn't a great deal on guns except what they each used. Jim Corbett, Richard Anderson, Selous, etc.

There was a movie with Michael Douglas made several years ago loosely bases on the man-eaters of Tsavo. I enjoyed the movie but it differs greatly from the book by the hunter that killed them. He was a railroad engineeer and knew almost nothing about hunting lions and had to learn on the fly. He admits he was extremely lucky that he lived thru the experience. A good read about Africa of over a century ago.

 

[BreechFace]

Where have you been? Just going or being "anywhere" these days, is going outside the wire.

True, in many places. Just hasn't reached my neck of the woods yet.

 

[drobs]

Which famous gun writer shot his fellow Border Patrol co-worker via ND?

 

[bannockburn]

Growing up I read anything and everything I could about guns. Had subscriptions to 4 or 5 gun magazines and bought that many off the shelf. Favorite writers were the likes of Elmer Keith, Jeff Cooper, Skeeter Skelton, Massad Ayoob, Chuck Taylor and a whole bunch more. I was both entertained and enlightened by their articles and editorial viewpoints. Learned a lot of stuff about guns that I have put to use over the years and of course present day, I'm still learning and enjoying some of the current crop of online entities who do gun reviews and commentaries.

 

[entropy]

The closest I have come to 'attacking' Mas was recently when I saw a You Tube short of his condemning letting a 1911 slide down on an empty chamber. He said every time someone dies that, a kitten is killed somewhere. I posted that he shouldn't have said that, now I have to start doing it, and often.

 

[General Geoff]

Common problems people have:

• Dismissing people who disagree with them basing the dismissal purely on the disagreement and not on content.
  • This also includes dismissing everything someone says because they get one thing wrong or because some of their information is outdated.
• Agreeing with people who agree with them based purely on the agreement and not on content.
  • This also includes agreeing with everything someone says because they get one thing right or because some of their information is relevant.

Words of wisdom for all aspects of public figures and so-called experts. Remember: just because you're an expert on something doesn't mean you're right.

Citing credentials and experience is a way to persuade your audience to believe you. It is not a guaranteed stamp of objective truth and fact in professed opinion.

 

[benEzra]

Browsing one of the other gun forums (the black rifle associated one), I noticed that once again folks were attacking Massad Ayoob. I just don't get the hate. I'm not 40 years old yet, but I read Ayoob's In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection when I was young, and it was insightful. I've spoken with Ayoob a few times and learned a lot from him. But those folks attacking him are doing so because he wasn't a GWOT Operator.

The thing is, Mr. Ayoob’s writings about self-defense law are still as relevant today (possibly even more so in some jurisdictions) than they were in the 80s and 90s.

Mas was/is an excellent shooter and shooting instructor, but LFI always heavily emphasized the legal side, and making sure you conscientiously stay on the right side of self-defense law and avoid the pitfalls.

There sure undoubtedly GWOT-era instructors that may be even better teachers today of shooting techniques, especially those pertaining to newer technologies like carry optics, but few who can speak as well on the legal side as Mr. Ayoob.

 

[rust collector]

I will never understand why some people feel compelled to insert their opinions in every discussion, to joust at every windmill, then to disparage anyone else who is not of the same opinion. I have enjoyed reading many of the old gun writers' stories, unless they assume the mantle of infallibility.

I enjoy the unique deliveries and experiences of Mas Ayoob, Paul Harrell and others who have vastly more experience than I will ever have. If I disagree with something, I can't think of anything to be gained by disparaging comments.

Having said that, I will acknowledge that gun writers are human and subject to the same frailties as all of us. Here's a link to a podcast on the subject for anyone interested.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cHrBm6X67A

 

[wayneinFL]

Which famous gun writer shot his fellow Border Patrol co-worker via ND?

I had heard of that. Nobody's perfect.

Can you imagine?

 

[Jonah77]

For me….

It’s not the age, nor the disagreement that results in an apparent “lack of respect”.

It’s the total a absence of what might best be called “class” that accompanies it.

Everyone talks at each other like a street punk on crack…or an actor in a poorly written movie.

“You stupid Fudd Boomer….”
“You stupid punk millennial..”

Ad nauseum. No class. No respect for or from either side a lot of the time. Just total ‘trash talk’-across the board. Can’t even articulate why you disagree. The other person is just WRONG and out of touch…

Way too much ‘hate’ for brothers-in-arms to have for one another.

 

[.38 Special]

Which famous gun writer shot his fellow Border Patrol co-worker via ND?

I had heard of that. Nobody's perfect.

Can you imagine?

View attachment 1194378

Skeeter wrote an article about NDs and included several of his own. (I can't find it anywhere on the web or I would post a link.) A common thread was dry-firing an empty revolver, then loading it and setting it down. I changed my habits after thinking on it for a while. When I am through with dryfire practice I lock the gun away and give myself some period of time to mentally change gears before loading and handling it again.

 

[Roverguy]

Mocking the past and demonstrating a remarkable lack of understanding of historical context, unlike that demonstrated in the Original Post here, seems to be a cultural phenomenon enthusiastically endorsed by many of the Millennial and Gen Z generations.

 

[CDW4ME]

OP is not 40 yet?
I had you figured for older, like around my age 57, due to the threads on 90's guns.
I read gun magazines in the 90's when articles written by Mas were common.

 

[Hookeye]

Writers....

Its about marketing to a wide range of folks.

Not everybody is on the same page techincally or other (pun intended).

Enjoyed a few writers in my youth, but as Ive learned more, done more.........its all been dumped into the nostalgia folder.

 

[Hookeye]

BTW, never been into celebrity or hero worship.
Give me some solid data, maybe even delivered in an entertaining manner.

I can barely tolerate stuff on Youtube. They play you for time, to help their algorithm.
Even when done, the meat is minimal. Guess that allows for another episode.

Must say, I did enjoy F&S as a kid, but as an adult pretty much only read the Petzal stuff.
He was funny.

I do have my Charmichael DIY gunsmithing book someplace around here. Ive done that one cover to cover, couple times.
Been a while.
Next blizzard proly pour myself a stiff drink and plop down with it under a lamp..... w a real lightbulb.

 

[.38 Special]

Regarding the OP's point, I think there are several factors. One is, as others here have pointed out, the age-old friction between generations. The whippersnappers dismiss the fogeys as behind the times, and the fogeys dismiss the whippersnappers as just a bunch of dumb kids running their mouths. C'est la vie.

The rise of the internet and social media, on the other hand, is more insidious. Without facial expressions, body language, and tone of voice, even the best intentions sometimes are misinterpreted - I try to be particularly polite in my written communications, and still manage to offend people by accident. And when I am trying to be a little offensive, it is easy for online interactions to get wildly out-of-hand, as we are mostly anonymous strangers and incur no real physical risk. Or, as Tyson put it, "Social media made y’all way too comfortable with disrespecting people and not getting punched in the face for it."

Having said all that, I'll admit to falling into the fogey end of things, both in age and in attitude. I've always admired the "Men who came before", figured they were owed respect for experience if nothing else, and never have understood folks who don't agree with that. Even the old guys with whom I largely disagree are still owed some amount of respect. Meanwhile the younger set are busy jumping from one fad to the next while insisting that anything older than last week is useless and stupid, even as they "discover" stuff that was tried and discarded decades before they were born. I still learn from those folks, and try to keep an open mind around them - but jeez, I really want these kids off my lawn.

 

[Hookeye]

I have been blessed/cursed with the abiility to read between the lines.

Think it safe to assume folks are not of ill will in their internet writing.
Even if they are.

Not worth the hassle.

 

[Hookeye]

BTW, if you have the facts and tell the truth, expect to offend at least 50% of the people.

 

[illinoisburt]

I had my favorites and some I payed little attention to. I was never a big fan of Keith, Cooper, or Askins. I subscribe to many gun magazines in olden times but today it's mostly youtube and I have a hard time with all the blather and hot air many of them spew. Some are informative, most are not. I am not a beat around the bush person. Say what you have to say on the subject and be done with it. Paul Harrel was pretty good at getting that done. Hickock 45 uses 100 words to say 10. I don't really dislike him but he wears me out with all his talk.

I have recently been reading stories by old time hunters of man eating lions, tigers, leopards, rogue elephants, and even dangerous bears from the late 1800's up until the 1950's lately. These are found on Amazon pretty cheaply and I have to admire the grit and bravery of each author. Also the description of Africa and India and the native populations in that era are informative. Call them hair raising hunting, geography, and history rolled into one story at a time. There isn't a great deal on guns except what they each used. Jim Corbett, Richard Anderson, Selous, etc.

There was a movie with Michael Douglas made several years ago loosely bases on the man-eaters of Tsavo. I enjoyed the movie but it differs greatly from the book by the hunter that killed them. He was a railroad engineeer and knew almost nothing about hunting lions and had to learn on the fly. He admits he was extremely lucky that he lived thru the experience. A good read about Africa of over a century ago.

You bring up a pretty good point about the difference between the gun writers who were writing about hunting versus the self defense/tactical writers of yesteryears. The older hunting writing tended to be grand adventures whereas much today seems to be technical manuals by comparison. Much of what they wrote doesn't apply well to today's hunting because so much has changed in season lengths and land accessibility.

Btw the Tsavo lions were stuffed and on display for many years at the Chicago Field Museum. It's really interesting to visit the display and see both the animals themselves (they are maneless lions unlike the movies) along with the first hand account writings from the events.

 

[Miami_JBT]

I had my favorites and some I payed little attention to. I was never a big fan of Keith, Cooper, or Askins. I subscribe to many gun magazines in olden times but today it's mostly youtube and I have a hard time with all the blather and hot air many of them spew. Some are informative, most are not. I am not a beat around the bush person. Say what you have to say on the subject and be done with it. Paul Harrel was pretty good at getting that done. Hickock 45 uses 100 words to say 10. I don't really dislike him but he wears me out with all his talk.

I have recently been reading stories by old time hunters of man eating lions, tigers, leopards, rogue elephants, and even dangerous bears from the late 1800's up until the 1950's lately. These are found on Amazon pretty cheaply and I have to admire the grit and bravery of each author. Also the description of Africa and India and the native populations in that era are informative. Call them hair raising hunting, geography, and history rolled into one story at a time. There isn't a great deal on guns except what they each used. Jim Corbett, Richard Anderson, Selous, etc.

There was a movie with Michael Douglas made several years ago loosely bases on the man-eaters of Tsavo. I enjoyed the movie but it differs greatly from the book by the hunter that killed them. He was a railroad engineeer and knew almost nothing about hunting lions and had to learn on the fly. He admits he was extremely lucky that he lived thru the experience. A good read about Africa of over a century ago.

The Ghost And The Darkness was the movie. I've read the works of John Henry Patterson and it was hair-raising for sure. The man-eaters of Tsavo are stuffed and on display at the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago.

 

[Miami_JBT]

Which famous gun writer shot his fellow Border Patrol co-worker via ND?

Bill Jordan, author of No Second Place Winner.