Respect (or lack there of) for older Gun Writers

[Old Dog]

Browsing one of the other gun forums (the black rifle associated one), I noticed that once again folks were attacking Massad Ayoob. I just don't get the hate. I'm not 40 years old yet, but I read Ayoob's In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection when I was young, and it was insightful. I've spoken with Ayoob a few times and learned a lot from him. But those folks attacking him are doing so because he wasn't a GWOT Operator.

I occasionally check in over there in the hope that things might have changed since the early '00s. Nope Still a total and complete lack of civil discourse, where my opinion trumps everyone else's, the new way is the only way, and the guy with the best and most expensive gear wins.

One cannot look to those forums for any constructive insight. There is a distinct lack of respect for those who came before, and ageism is oft thinly-veiled and even more often, blatant.

Let's see whom would have more pertinent information for a commonplace CCW carrier?

A veteran of the police force, undercover, detective who spent his career on the beat OR a soldier who spent his time in a cadre of soldiers in the desert of AFG/IRAQ kicking down doors, patrolling and worrying about IED's?

Yep. As one whose career, both in law enforcement and the military spanned 1978 through 2005, I agree wholeheartedly.

Too many "gun schools" these days are getting more like those fantasy camps where well-to-do middle-aged and senior guys go to spring training ballparks, pretend they're going through spring training and play some baseball games with retired MLB players...

While recovering from recent surgery, I've been going back and rereading a lot of the older gunwriters, including all of my Ayoob volumes. Still relevant.

He used to be an active member here. But internet experts with no more experience than the ability to type drove him away. You can only argue with the ignorant for so long...

Mas spoke to this in one of his American Handgunner columns a few years back He noted that it was interesting that anonymous posters would insist that their statements were more credible than those of someone who put his real name and experience out there.

 

[Miami_JBT]

The closest I have come to 'attacking' Mas was recently when I saw a You Tube short of his condemning letting a 1911 slide down on an empty chamber. He said every time someone dies that, a kitten is killed somewhere. I posted that he shouldn't have said that, now I have to start doing it, and often.

I recall that video. It was basically a "hey, don't do that on a $5k Wilson Combat 1911, on a $300 Tisas, go right ahead" type deal.

 

[Jim Watson]

For example, the ruminations of a guy whose experience is poaching game in Africa three quarters of a century ago with big bore rifles are highly unlikely to be relevant to modern handgun self-defense.

It has been tried, the TKO applied to small bore rifles and handguns.
But you know, I have not seen anybody to come up with a calculated figure of merit for handgun effectiveness lately.

Mas spoke to this in one of his American Handgunner columns a few years back He noted that it was interesting that anonymous posters would insist that their statements were more credible than those of someone who put his real name and experience out there.

See it every day. The CB handle game on the boards can be aggravating. When I first got a modem, I thought nothing of signing my name but a friend was horrified that I had set myself up for identity theft. Has't happened yet.
When I see Joe Cool citing a shooting match, I wonder if he was on my squad.
I like the looks of that customized gun, but who and where is Dremeldaddy who did the work?

I have read a few of the less well known authors.
Professor Henry Stebbins was kind of an eastern Jack O'Connor, although with less of a travel budget.
Jac Weller wrote about gun companies and armies with a different slant than others.

Ed Harris is still extant, I am always glad to see what he has to say on a subject.

I am sure there is some good information to be had on YouTube but I have a hard time sitting through Amateur Hour. Luckygunner posts a transcript so you have a choice of whether to listen or read.

 

[Miami_JBT]

The thing is, Mr. Ayoob’s writings about self-defense law are still as relevant today (possibly even more so in some jurisdictions) than they were in the 80s and 90s.

Mas was/is an excellent shooter and shooting instructor, but LFI always heavily emphasized the legal side, and making sure you conscientiously stay on the right side of self-defense law and avoid the pitfalls.

There sure undoubtedly GWOT-era instructors that may be even better teachers today of shooting techniques, especially those pertaining to newer technologies like carry optics, but few who can speak as well on the legal side as Mr. Ayoob.

I've always liked Ayoob because he covers the legal side of things. He recently released a video about the McCloskey situation in St. Louis. The Husband and wife lawyers who went into their yard while armed to protect their property from the BLM protestors.

Ayoob's legal advice was pretty much the following:

* "Hey, it is better to stay indoors and defend yourself from inside your home than go outside and confront the angry mob. Why? Because you have better chance to justify your use of force if they break in and go after you. It is harder to justify use of force if you confronted them."

*Paraphrased and summarized.

And he's not wrong on that since he based as an overall general statement for legal advice.

Yes, you should be able to stand in your own yard and protect yourself, your loved one, and your property from a violent mob. Yes, many jurisdictions have castle doctrine and stand your ground laws. But common sense also says "best way to win a fight is not get into one" and he preaches that big time.

He wasn't saying that the McCloskey couple were in the wrong. He was saying, "see, what they're going through, can happen to you too depending on the prosecutorial mindset of the State Attorney's Office. So, be careful and pick your battles carefully."

 

[Miami_JBT]

For me….

It’s not the age, nor the disagreement that results in an apparent “lack of respect”.

It’s the total a absence of what might best be called “class” that accompanies it.

Everyone talks at each other like a street punk on crack…or an actor in a poorly written movie.

“You stupid Fudd Boomer….”
“You stupid punk millennial..”

Ad nauseum. No class. No respect for or from either side a lot of the time. Just total ‘trash talk’-across the board. Can’t even articulate why you disagree. The other person is just WRONG and out of touch…

Way too much ‘hate’ for brothers-in-arms to have for one another.

Mike Tyson said it best.

 

[Miami_JBT]

OP is not 40 yet?
I had you figured for older, like around my age 57, due to the threads on 90's guns.
I read gun magazines in the 90's when articles written by Mas were common.

@CDW4ME, I grew up as a second gen cop. My old man was (and still is) big into guns, shooting, hunting, collecting, etc.... So, as a kid, I experienced a lot of gun culture in the late 80s and 90s. I came of age as a teenage gun owner during the height of the Clinton AWB. Dad had every subscription you could think of, and when he was done with 'em. I got my grubby paws and read them in school and a home.

 

[Old Dog]

For those that didn't bother checking out the Ayoob thread on that other site, it started with Ayoob on cargo pants, and went seven pages of forum members calling Ayoob foul names and disparaging him.

I'd say that's pretty good evidence that there is a pronounced divide in our community when younger members respond with derision and ridicule to an older guy who's paid his dues, done stellar work supporting the RKBA and devoted his life to protecting the right to armed self-defense in our country.

 

[.38 Special]

I've always liked Ayoob because he covers the legal side of things. He recently released a video about the McCloskey situation in St. Louis. The Husband and wife lawyers who went into their yard while armed to protect their property from the BLM protestors.

Ayoob's legal advice was pretty much the following:

* "Hey, it is better to stay indoors and defend yourself from inside your home than go outside and confront the angry mob. Why? Because you have better chance to justify your use of force if they break in and go after you. It is harder to justify use of force if you confronted them."

*Paraphrased and summarized.

And he's not wrong on that since he based as an overall general statement for legal advice.

Yes, you should be able to stand in your own yard and protect yourself, your loved one, and your property from a violent mob. Yes, many jurisdictions have castle doctrine and stand your ground laws. But common sense also says "best way to win a fight is not get into one" and he preaches that big time.

He wasn't saying that the McCloskey couple were in the wrong. He was saying, "see, what they're going through, can happen to you too depending on the prosecutorial mindset of the State Attorney's Office. So, be careful and pick your battles carefully."

Not to mention that if you stand outside waving a gun around, you are liable to end up on the nightly news, if not a meme.

 

[Crosshair]

But you did point something out. The industry is built off of fads. Sell the sizzle, not the steak. I remember a number of fads that have come and gone during the last two decades in the tacticool arena.

This is why they're not liked by some. They've been around the block, fallen for past fads, and are now decent at recognizing current potential fads.

Example, they've pointed out that pistol red-dots are expensive, have a high skill floor, and most people don't train enough to be reliability proficient with them vs uron sights. They've pointed out that revolvers are a perfectly valid choice for self defence. Etc.

 

[jmr40]

There has always been differing opinions. There was criticism of Cooper and his opinions long before the internet. Jack O'Connor pushed smaller, faster cartridges while Elmer Keith argued that big and slow was better. Each has always had their followers and detractors.

I don't see where it is really any different today than ever. The internet and forums like this have just made it easier for people to make their opinions public where they used to only be argued in gun shops and around campfires.

 

[Old Dog]

There has always been differing opinions. There was criticism of Cooper and his opinions long before the internet. Jack O'Connor pushed smaller, faster cartridges while Elmer Keith argued that big and slow was better. Each has always had their followers and detractors.

I don't see where it is really any different today than ever. The internet and forums like this have just made it easier for people to make their opinions public where they used to only be argued in gun shops and around campfires.

Criticism and differing opinions are one thing, as are followers and detractors. The OP's thesis was about respect and disrespect. While O'Connor and Keith disagreed vehemently, their debates and discussions did not typically result in calling each other foul names and attacking each other's experience or intelligence. The Ayoob thread on the other forum, in just one response, devolved quickly into seven pages of calling the man vile names and ridiculing his experience and intelligence.

What the internet has done is put an end to respectful disagreement and civil discourse, creating extremism on both ends. Same as our political system.

 

[Hugger-4641]

Hell, you probably still think 45AARP is an effective man stopper!

 

[Electrod47]

The Greats Of Gunwriting

According to most every website one visits where gunwriters might be discussed the tone almost universally is, “The great gunwriters are all dead. The ones today are a bunch of no-nothings acting as shills for the big manufacturers.”

americanhandgunner.com

John Wooters and Maj. George M. Nonte..........and for good yarns Skeeter
When Skeeter past I felt I'd lost a dear friend.
PS If Mr. Ayoob can't speak his mind in peace...well, thats on us. Got nothing to do with him.

 

[Heir Kommt Die Sonne]

I apparently am one of the youngest active members on this forum, right behind Bigblue94 and i personally, dont have any issue with Ayoob. I can tell he's been around for a while and like most defense instructors of his generation, focus heavily on the legal defense aspect of fights.
I don't know if I'm an exception but I really like the older wealth of information. It's stuff that isn't being done anymore, in that way, so I believe it's valuable to preserve that knowledge.
Elmer Keith, Jack O'connor I'm familiar with. Jeff Cooper is still regularly mentioned alot when it comes to handgun fighting. Maybe that's because I spend alot of time on this forum over others. I came here precisely because the people here were much more civil than in other places. I can disagree here and people don't argue, only share what their input is.

 

[crstrode]

Browsing one of the other gun forums (the black rifle associated one), I noticed that once again folks were attacking Massad Ayoob. I just don't get the hate. I'm not 40 years old yet, but I read Ayoob's In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection when I was young, and it was insightful. I've spoken with Ayoob a few times and learned a lot from him. But those folks attacking him are doing so because he wasn't a GWOT Operator.

So what! Ayoob came about in an era before the internet. In fact, he came about in an era where pretty much the idea of teaching the general public anything self-defense related wasn't done. Heck Jeff Cooper only opened up Gunsite in 1976 and Ayoob released In the Gravest Extreme in 1980. Self-defense instruction was just starting and Ayoob was one of the early folks that got it off the ground. He tackled self-defense in a manner that previously, was never done. He gathered data on laws and situations from around the country and developed a training curriculum around that information. He also became an expert witness and helped a number of folks being railroaded not be railroaded.

Same goes for Jeff Cooper, Elmer Keith, Ken Hackathorn, "Skeeter" Skelton, and the rest of 'em. I see folks now bemoaning and admonishing them too, especially Jeff Cooper and his ideas on the scout rifle.

The folks that came from yesteryear are the ones who laid the foundations that today's GunTubers get to build careers on. They were the pioneers of and settled the frontier to make what today's industry is. Even folks knock Lenny Magill. Yet he took basic gun instruction and slapped it on a VHS tape and that truly spawned the GunTubers.

Are some of these folks past their prime? And are some of their earlier works outdated? Sure. But at the time, many of them weren't outdated and they worked with the knowledge and tools that they had available. But more importantly, they built entire industries that the shooting public enjoys today.

It is a cryin' shame there are not more of the Millennial and more recent generations that have considered your point of view.

Long before I achieved three score and ten, it became a policy that, regardless of vintage, people deserve due consideration and respect until they have shown themselves to be unworthy of such.

 

[Lo-Profile]

Not Ayoob fan. But he does posses a wealth of knowledge. The Wilson Combat channel is one of my favorite.

Most Internet commandos are just that.
Never seen a day outside Mommy's basement

 

[Miami_JBT]

There has always been differing opinions. There was criticism of Cooper and his opinions long before the internet. Jack O'Connor pushed smaller, faster cartridges while Elmer Keith argued that big and slow was better. Each has always had their followers and detractors.

I don't see where it is really any different today than ever. The internet and forums like this have just made it easier for people to make their opinions public where they used to only be argued in gun shops and around campfires.

They weren't saying the following about each other:

"Dude is old as #$%& and talks like a %#@. That dead muskrat he has on his head just looks awful. Hell, that old #$%&er probably carries a spare dead skunk in his cargo pockets for when his main head carpet flies off. Also, since he was just a reserve cop, he's a piece of #$&@ since he never got into rolling gun battles in the ghetto or in Kabul/Baghdad."

 

[Kleanbore]

I do not frequent those sites.

This does bring to mind, however, comments made here to the effect that Mas, Tom Givens, Rob Pincus, and others are somehow lacking in credibility because they have not been in "real" gunfights.

Silly, really. It less not take much reflection to realize that that is a ridiculous position.

It has been suggested before, but a very good way to learn a lot about deadly force is to sit through number of murder tails. Mr. Ayoob has done a lot more than that..

 

[.308 Norma]

but a very good way to learn a lot about deadly force is to sit through number of murder tails.

Do you mean like the murder "tails" on TV, Kleanbore? I've sat through quite a few TV murder tales myself, and I doubt I know much more about deadly force than the average Joe.
Just kidding around, Kleanbore. I know a typo when I see it. Trials, right?

 

[Miami_JBT]

A big thing is a lot of instructors might be good instructors on HOW TO SHOOT. But what separated Ayoob from others was Ayoob covered on what happened AFTER YOU SHOT.

The high speed low drag guys from the 20 year government funded sandbox play-date really for the most part can't cover what happens after you take the shot.

 

[Heir Kommt Die Sonne]

They weren't saying the following about each other:

"Dude is old as #$%& and talks like a %#@. That dead muskrat he has on his head just looks awful. Hell, that old #$%&er probably carries a spare dead skunk in his cargo pockets for when his main head carpet flies off. Also, since he was just a reserve cop, he's a piece of #$&@ since he never got into rolling gun battles in the ghetto or in Kabul/Baghdad."

What forum were you on? That is not the type of language I see anywhere, unless the forum is full of people trying to be edgy or that guy has mental issues.
I had to left one forum because although years of using it, the people there are honestly crazy.

 

[Old Dog]

This does bring to mind, however, comments made here to the effect that Mas, Tom Givens, Rob Pincus, and others are somehow lacking in credibility because they have not been in "real" gunfights.

Not to take the thread totally off-track, but I've been a member of this forum for almost 20 years and don't ever recall seeing comments such as that about these three gentlemen. Mas and Tom in particular have been afforded much respect here and garner many kudos. (Okay, I do recall a thread where a member made a comment about Mas' hairpiece in jest, but I don't remember anyone ever questioning his credentials as a gun writer or instructor.)

 

[Old Dog]

What forum were you on? That is not the type of language I see anywhere, unless the forum is full of people trying to be edgy or that guy has mental issues.
I had to left one forum because although years of using it, the people there are honestly crazy.

The immensely popular AR-centric site.

 

[Kleanbore]

Not to take the thread totally off-track, but I've been a member of this forum for almost 20 years and don't ever recall seeing comments such as that about these three gentlemen.

I have, in threads RE: training.

 

[Old Dog]

I have, in threads RE: training.

Would you be so kind as to provide any examples? Especially since that is one of the sub-forums I frequent the most, yet still cannot recall nor find any comments calling into question the credibility of these gentlemen... (unless it was in 2005, a year most of which I was deployed).