Response Trigger: Legal?

[ShaiVong]

This is a kind of weird idea but...

I got this thing for my paintball gun called a "Response Trigger". It basically makes your gun fire full auto, but is still 'legally' considered semi auto.

This is how it works: There is a little gas cylinder mounted in the grip frame behind the trigger. Every time you fire the gun the piston kicks your trigger back out by gas routed from the main cylinder. Basically it works how gas operated rifles reciprocate(sp) the bolt.

There is a little screw to tune how much gas escapes to the trigger piston. In action you can put just the right ammount of steady pressure on the trigger so that it fires the gun, the piston resets your finger, and your already pulling it again. Thus it still works like a semi, but its like an auto-bumpfire.

Why wouldnt this be legal on a firearm? Your still mechanically pulling the trigger for every shot, so its technically not full auto, because the sear and disconnect engage every time. The harder you pull the trigger, the faster it fires, untill you pull harder than the piston can push and it stops.

 

[j.wise]

This technology was invented for use in paintball guns? FANTASTIC! Gotta love cross-contamination of technology!

I had a "trigger activation device" for my M-11 Cobray a lifetime ago. It was a set of springs that rested against the trigger. Basically it adds more tension to reset the trigger faster (same idea as your doohickey.) It worked alright, but I found I could produce the same effect with a better trigger and more practice without the little spring-thing attached to my gun.

 

[ShaiVong]

I had a "trigger activation device" for my M-11 Cobray a lifetime ago. It was a set of springs that rested against the trigger. Basically it adds more tension to reset the trigger faster (same idea as your doohickey.) It worked alright, but I found I could produce the same effect with a better trigger and more practice without the little spring-thing attached to my gun.

Well I'm not exactly sure how your system worked, but the beauty of this one is there is no opposition to you pulling the trigger untill the gun actually fires, and then it kicks it out and vents again. That is unless you crank the valve down enough so no gas can escape, and the piston keeps the trigger forced out.

 

[ShaiVong]

http://www.tippmann.com/systems/response.asp

 

[ShaiVong]

So now I'm starting to think "Man, it wouldnt be hard to build somthing like that for the AR!"

While I'm also starting to imagine ATF officers kicking down my door and beating my wife. :banghead:

 

[zahc]

FWIW, the tippmann response trigger is not legal for tournaments. It is usually considered full auto, which is allowed at some woods games. And it will get 10-15bps (silly way paintballers measure ROF) which is 600+rpm.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

The old Hellfire and other "trigger activators" used the recoil of the gun to simulate full-auto fire. You can do the same thing without a mechanical device by "bump" firing the gun. These gadgets were external to the firearm and did not modify the gun.

A device such as the "Response Trigger" that is an actual component of the gun and uses the gasses to function would be considered a machinegun. This is because the gun fires "more than one round per trigger pull," because the device is operating the sear.

 

[ShaiVong]

This is because the gun fires "more than one round per trigger pull," because the device is operating the sear.

But it really wouldnt fire more than one round per trigger pull, you pull the trigger once for every shot. To you it just feels like your finger is vibrating. Or is this just semantics? It would be the same exact thing if I put a flapper on the front of my gun with an operating rod that came back and drilled into the side of the trigger. I exert force on the trigger that normally would hold it in the "Fired" position, but the op rod forces my finger forward. Once the force on the flapper from the expanding gasses produces less force than that exerted by my finger, my finger causes the trigger to move into the "Fired" position again.

I'm not trying to argue with you HK as to if it isnt or is legal; your the final word on that. Personally my first reaction is that it isnt. But I always thought that a machine gun is something that allows you to fire more than one round per physical trigger pull; not somthing that allows you to pull the trigger at 600rpm. Arent those little cranks for 10/22 trigger guards legal? I'm sure with enough teeth you could get those things cranking right along.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Shoot, I'd love it if it were legal. Be worth sending a letter to ATF for a ruling.

The tricky part is that the device resets both the trigger and sear and by simply having pressure on the trigger, the piston keeps firing the gun. Technically, the trigger does fire one shot per trigger pull.

And the flapper idea. IIRC, one of the gun manufacturers in the late 1800s converted a lever action rifle into a full-auto by installing a flapper at the muzzle. Using mechanical linkage back to the action, it operated in place of the lever to chamber the next round.

 

[HankB]

Ya know, it sound like the gas thingie is just kicking your finger forward faster, after which your finger presses the trigger again . . . so you're only getting one shot eash time your finger presses the trigger. Seems like a loophole to me, and would appear to be legal.

How about a volunteer to be the test case?

 

[ShaiVong]

Hey Hank: No problem! Do you have a boat to get me to international waters?

HK: I don't know if your pulling my chain about the ATF letter or not; if you KNOW its taboo. If not, I may just write them a letter.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

ShaiVong,

No joke, write them one. You can ask anything. Even the guy that invented the Hellfire got a letter from ATF before selling them. He even included a copy in the box.

 

[Kharn]

Hkmp5sd:

IIRC, one of the gun manufacturers in the late 1800s converted a lever action rifle into a full-auto by installing a flapper at the muzzle. Using mechanical linkage back to the action, it operated in place of the lever to chamber the next round.

I believe that was JMB, and he was actually trying to make a semiauto, not a machine gun. He probably discovered the concept of a disconnector the same day.

Kharn

 

[zahc]

True, true. I read on a paintball website about this guy who wrote to the BATFE about the legality of suppressors for paintball, and getting a typical response--pay us a huge fee just so that you can submit your 'plans' (pvc pipe and fiberglass) for us to review them. He was quite disgusted. It was sort of funny in a sick way, seeing him throw a temper tantrum. The poor paintballer getting a taste of gun control.

 

[DrDremel]

Not only should this be legal but the concept has actually been tested in court. In the case listed below, ATF wanted to classify a device that did just what you are describing that bolted on a 1911a1 pistol. It did not require any modification to the host firearm. In the case described, Mr. Francis Warin, a gun designer and 2nd amendment political activist, who had previously built a homemade machinegun and lost in court, built such a device. In the case it was determined that it did not meet the definition of a machinegun. The trigger is pulled for each individual shot, therefore, it is not a machinegun. Mr Warin also designed similar versions for a Marlin Camp Carbine, and Mini 14. He did not produce the items for mass production because he did not have the facilities for mass production and also because he was afraid that doing so would cause ATF to seek to redefine a machinegun to cover this type of device. Instead, Mr Warin is actively pursuing the clarification that the second amendment is an individual right that can not be limited by the Government. The 1911 rapid rate of fire device design is public record in the court case listed below. Writing ATF does not really mean much as it is simply an opinion and not backed by law. Many of their letters are contrary to law and in some cases there are two opposite letters on the same topic. In the case of a high rate of fire spring device, such that would lift your finger from the trigger until such time as the firearm has returned to battery, there is already a precedence in court on such a device. This is musch better than an ATF letter as it has backing in court. Since ATF took Mr. Warin to court on the matter of his design, it would be best to hire an attorney to help with the approval as I am sure that ATF would not he happy about it and would try to discourage its manufacture.

Warin v. Director, Dep't of Treasury, No. C 80-210, (N.D.Ohio October 14, 1983)

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF OHIO
WESTERN DIVISION

 

[ShaiVong]

Thanks Dremel;

Although I wouldnt be eyeing this for mass production, for the same reason that Mr. Warin didnt. Main reason I would want a letter saying aye/nay is to hide behind if they ever took me to court saying I manufactured a MG.

Great. Now I'm working, taking 16 credit hours, fending off my wife, playing paintball every weekend, trying to improve my firearm skills AND manufacturing a pseudo machinegun

Actually I think the trigger would be really nice because you can tune how fast it shoots just by the pressure on your finger (changes the DT for the piston reseting sear and your finger compressing piston). Anywhere from 1 shot a second, or less, all the way up past 600rpm. With a few minutes practice you can get a three-five round burst with a single pull too.

 

[ny32182]

I haven't played paintball for a long time, and havent kept up with recent gear innovations. The Automag RT and especially the electronic autocockers were considered rare and exotic when I stopped playing. The Tippmann 98 had just come out.... if that gives you any idea as to the time frame here. I had/still have a suppressor for my Tippmann Pro-lite. Since its not a firearm, I never considered the possibility that it could be illegal. :shrugs:

I'm sure you know, that Automag's RT trigger worked/works on the same concept (of the trigger being forcefully reset by a gas pulse after each shot). The valve could cycle 26 times per second I believe, so with the right amount of trigger pressure, thats how fast it would fire. Of course, thats faster than balls could be gravity fed even through a VL Revolution, which was the most advanced feeding device at the time. All Automag RT's were perfectly legal for tourney competition though, so I dont' know why this device would be any different. In fact, my biggest problem with the RT was that I would get it going too fast, and start chopping balls at the most inoportune times, and ended up switching back to autocockers.

The reason I don't think such a device would work very well on any firearm except maybe a .22LR: recoil. Its going to be very very difficult to keep a steady amount of trigger pressure on the trigger of a firearm that recoils. In contrast, a top end paintball gun doesn't even move enough to disturb the balls in the hopper during operation, necessitating electronic agitators, and its comparitively much easier to regulate trigger pressure to achieve a desired ROF, although still not a cakewalk when under pressure.

There is a legal device called a "tac trigger" that will work with nearly any semi-auto firearm, suppsedly. I think it somehow allows you to bump fire effectively from the shoulder, although I've never used one and have been told they are a waste of money.

 

[gun-fucious]

paintball supressors are evil because they could still be
duct taped onto a conventional fiream and modulate the dBs

http://www.corin.com/bill/paintball/silencer.html

My new proposed paintgun silencer consists of two components. A length of thin wall ABS or PVC pipe, and crumpled toilet tissue (shown below, the pipe in cross-section).

 

[ShaiVong]

Of course, thats faster than balls could be gravity fed even through a VL Revolution, which was the most advanced feeding device at the time. All Automag RT's were perfectly legal for tourney competition though, so I dont' know why this device would be any different. In fact, my biggest problem with the RT was that I would get it going too fast, and start chopping balls at the most inoportune times, and ended up switching back to autocockers.

Yeah that would normally be a problem, but with my Tippmann A5 it has a power feed system that loads a new ball for every pull of the trigger, so it never skips or chops... Atleast it never has for me.

http://www.tippmann.com/systems/cyclone.asp

 

[ny32182]

Yeah that would normally be a problem, but with my Tippmann A5 it has a power feed system that loads a new ball for every pull of the trigger, so it never skips or chops... Atleast it never has for me.

Wow... looks like tippmann internals haven't changed much. That feeding system looks nice, but I don't see why it would be necessary without a reactive trigger or full auto.

There were many things about the prolite I liked (I still own the prolite and an autococker, haven't fired them in a long time), and one of them was that the gas didn't start throwing the bolt forward until after it was past the point where it would have chopped a ball in the firing sequence. So, on the rare occasion that I would pull before a ball was fully loaded, the bolt would simply catch on the ball without chopping it. Just re-rack the action and start pulling again to clear the problem. Hell of a lot easier than feild stripping to clean out a chopped ball in the middle of a game. My spyders, autocockers, and automags didn't do this. I always thought it was genius. Too bad about the VERY ????ty trigger, or I'd have been seriously considering walking into tourney games with a 220 dollar gun... damn, brings back memories.

Edit: Looks like they have an electronic FA accessory now. Which would make perfect sense.

 

[ShaiVong]

Yeah, and they sell the gun with the responce trigger factory installed if you like; which is how i bought it.

The vortex feed system is nice because you dont "skip" balls like you do with gravity feed. Downside is it makes the gun eat alot more gas.. Gas is still cheaper than batteries for an electronic hopper though

With the A5 running a response trigger AND vortex feed, i get my money back in fills from the field when I play there

Cost to play all day: $5

2000 PMI Big Ball Paint: $40

Cost for a 12oz CO2 tank fill normally: $3

Cost for 12oz CO2 tank fill at the field: $0

# of free fills at field while using A5: ~3

Actual Field Fee: -$4