Retired WI Farmer Hitler Memorial

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I will defend his right to say what he desires, I only ask that he speaks the truth, not what he believe is the truth
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Who are you to judge what he believes to be true? He has the right to say something which happens to be false, as long as he believes it is true. To even imply otherwise is to be an enemy of the First Amendment, no sugar-coating!

I don't agree with him, but free speech is free speech, even if you or I don't like it.
 
Why not let him be heard?

I too think it would be interesting to talk to one of the few oldtimers left from WW2, regardless of what side they were on. As an American, I was taught that Nazis were scum of the earth and guilty of some of the most horrific crimes against humanity of modern times.

But what I have read and heard since that time is that not all Nazis were cruel, sadistic monsters. Not every Nazi conducted medical experiments on babies, only certain Doctors. And many did not even know about the camps until after-the-fact. In short, not all were war criminals or participants in the holocaust horrors of Hitler's third reich.

Also, keep in mind that he was indoctrinated to believe all that he is now espousing at a young age. He very well might not even want to entertain the possibility that he was a bad-guy. Try to look at it from another's perspective.

Anyway, the message or view that he is expressing should be a moot point (unless it fell outside the bounds of free speech). However, it is clear to me that as a nation we allow people to speak their minds- as long as they are politically correct. If he was putting up a gay-pride sign or a pro -abortion hall or a memorial dedicated to MLKJr. this would not be an issue.

Why does this double standard continue to exist?

Shooter429
 
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Let him be, does he advocate nazi policy, or is trying to make an ethnic cleansing, making threats? The hystery that evoked here is just :barf: . Azrael, the "tribunal judges" were idiots, whole deal was a circus, just an act of revenge. IF it is his property and he's no threat, then let it be. Or is it that some people are more equal than others, and some less equal?

You know, similar is going on here, only on the other side, if someone puts up a memorial to the victims of communist crimes, same gibberish comes up, similar to azrael reasonings - they (commies in here) were the liberators, adversaries (local resistance etc) were evil and "nazi".

I've heard that allies put 2 million german troops into camps, where over a million died of starvation and diseases. Somehow this genocide is silenced down, for example.

Truth isn't what the "winning side" says it is. Real truth has no sides, but all sides try to show the truth positively to them. If one has no critizism to get the difference between the real truth and propaganda (just like antis - they believe the propaganda, how the guns are so dangerous to everybody), then I can feel only sorry for them.

Most "nazis" were soldiers, just like american soldiers, fighting for the "right thing", for their families and homeland. Every country had their view on "right". Germany fought for the so-called cleaner future and against communists (and if someone cares to check the history that one might even see, why the Hitler was able to come to power in the first place), as the Stalin was ready to invade Germany also, so the german iniciative kept the western part of Europe free of commie occupation eventually, and what most americans don't get, most of your technological advances today came from german research or researchers then (von Braun, anyone?) - jet technology, rocket techology, light assault rifles, german U-boots, especially type XXI were to american navy as Abrams tank to beduin novadays, german ship design was one of the best (only a little lacking in craftmanship, sabotages and shortage in amount) - Spähkreuzer was a nice design, they had a corvette with shipboard helo Colibri for ASW duty, beforementioned Type XXI as first real submarine in the world (grandfather to most afterwar designs) etc etc etc.
 
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I've heard that allies put 2 million german troops into camps, where over a million died of starvation and diseases.
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I've heard that the moon landings were faked, but that studio wrestling is real.

Come to think of it, if you include the Soviets, that might actually have a chance of being true...

You got any source for that rumor?
 
As to "Allies" and 2 million dead by starvation, well, yeah, Russia. They even incarcerated their own people who had been imprisoned by the Nazis for fear they had become "politically unreliable".

The Russians hauled trainload after trainload of whatever sort of heavy equipment, trucks, machine tools, and even people back to Russia from whatever territories they occupied at the end of the war. that was a large part of the Iron Curtain countries' problem in rebuilding: A swarm of roaches had cleaned out the rebuilding cupboard.

Art
 
I just wanted to chime in and suggest that a man acting in a non violent way to express his beliefs is a good thing, regardless of how wrong those beliefs may be.

Dangerous people are the ones that keep their beliefs to themselves and act in seceret.

Granted it is an offensive gesture, and it may bring elements into his town that the township may prefer to do without. But that is an issue between him and his neighbors to work out like civilized adults.

As far as banning the man from coming into the united states, maby it wasn't a wise choice back fifty some years ago to let him in, whether he was regular ss, or tokenoffer. But at the time the records were not computerized, it would have been very hard to tell a reffugee from a criminal fleeing justice. If he legally entered the country, and has been able to be a law abiding citizen acting in a productive manner, how he spends his money, offensive as it may be, is up to his discression. And the nature of his emigration is no longer a factor, he is a citizen, and as such enjoys the same rights as those of us born here.

I personally find his memorial offensive, I lost a large number of relatives in the holocost, but I would find it more offensive, and signifigantly more detrimental to the well being of our country to restrict in any way shape or form the free speach of an individual.

Just my oppinion
 
I personally find his memorial offensive, I lost a large number of relatives in the holocost, but I would find it more offensive, and signifigantly more detrimental to the well being of our country to restrict in any way shape or form the free speach of an individual.
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Agreed.

Furthermore, to make a big deal about it is to "give it power." If you laugh at it (again, watch the original Mel Brooks movie The Producers, which had a character in it who was much like this guy), then it is a joke. If you take it too seriously, it becomes something OTHER than a joke. This accomplishes the opposite from your intention.

Unlike, say, the Brady Campaign, this guy is just expressing his opinion about Hitler, not actively trying to destroy freedom. Most people find his opinion to be ludicrous. There's no real danger that a critical mass of people will become neo-Nazis, especially if no one makes a big deal about it and turns neo-Nazism into a great way for teenagers to piss off their parents. Leave it at that.
 
There is no evidence that Pope Benedict XVI (Ratzinger) ever was a member of the Nazi party and he certainly was not a member of the SS, as some anti-Catholic groups have alleged. His father was anti-Nazi, and the family was forced to move several times for that reason, but there is no evidence that the his father or any family member ever joined any anti-Nazi organization or that he or anyone in his family worked for or with the OSS, as others have alleged.

He did join the Hitler Jugend as did every other German teen-age male (girls joined the Bund Deutsche Madel) for the simple reason that it was compulsory; membership in the HJ or the BDM did not confer Nazi party membership. He was allowed to leave in order to study for the priesthood. He was later drafted into the German Army but was in a non-combat capacity.

I am not going to get into this too much, but some of the above posts show an almost total ignorance of both the Nazis and of Germany in that period. I can only suggest reading some real history (start with Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich). Americans should learn more about the real Hitler and the real Nazis in order to oppose them and their ideas here or elsewhere. But it does no good to hang the "Nazi" or "Hitler" label on anyone we disagree with, as the liberal left has done.

Jim
 
I want to know how the devil an SS man ever became a US citizen. He sure as hell better have had a few rocket designs for us. Otherwise we ought to have left him with the Ruskies.
 
Cosmoline, look up Waffen SS in Wikipedia.

There were 950,000 men in the Waffen SS. It was a military unit, like the Marines or the Air Force. The other, smaller "SS" groups like the Totenkopf SS (Death's Head SS) were primarily the ones who committed atrocities, ran concentration camps, etc.

Surely, some Waffen SS did commit war crimes, as did some American soldiers and everyone else in the war. But not all 950,000 of them. Some people signed up because they didn't want to be drafted into other kinds of service, just like here in the '60s.

General Patton understood this in 1945; he was nearly crucified for it by what we now call the mainstream media. But no one in his right mind would suggest that George S. Patton, whose proudest life work was killing German soldiers in large numbers, was a Nazi sympathizer.
 
Azrael-- The Waffen SS, a branch of the military, had 950,000 members. It wasn't the Totenkopf SS, who guarded concentration camps, or any of the other small SS groups, which were much more intimately involved in war crimes
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1. See this link to Theodor Eicke and the SS Totenkopf Division: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Eicke SS Totenkopf Division drew DIRECTLY from the camp guard pool.

2. The Waffen SS was so well known for atrocities against POWs and civilians, that a FAILURE to commit such acts was remarkable. They started out in Poland, progressed to the murder of Senegalese POWs among others in France in 1940, then hit the big time in the USSR. Perhaps you've never heard of Malmedy or Ouradour sur Glaine.

That wretch should never have been allowed into the United States, and should now be deported... assuming he's not just some nutcase lying to attract attention to himself.
 
Deanimator, perhaps you have never heard of Dresden or Tokyo? You know, burning 100,000 civilians alive and all that?

And yet, I've met several bomber pilots and crew from WW II, and none of them seemed like they should be deported.

I'm hardly defending atrocities; I'm just questioning people's perspectives. My parents grew up in Vienna during the war. They dodged bombs, even machine gun bullets, literally, on a regular basis. They were civilians, and they were not near a base or a munitions factory. Their fathers were conscripted -- in their 40s -- into the Nazi military (their families' lives would have been forfeit if they didn't go), despite the fact that both my grandfathers were anti-Nazi and my father's family was being "investigated" for having Jewish blood. We do, but thank God the Nazis could never prove it.

My parents have very close friends who were US Army Air Corps, US Marines, etc. at that time. Sometimes, after so many years, it's more important to build peace than keep hate alive.

Hate Nazism. That's fine, and a good thing. But don't hate every individual involved in the war, and don't believe all the propaganda. The War was ugly all around.
 
First I believe the Pope was in the Luftwaffenhelfer, or FLAK gun helper. They carried ammo, and cared for the FLAK guns. In 45 he was drafted into the Army, but deserted. He was living at home, when he was caught by the US Army who put him into a POW camp. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_of_Pope_Benedict_XVI

The Waffen SS had many different branches of service, just like the army. So being in the SS did not automaticly make someone a war criminal. One could be in the Signal core, maintance, supply etc. Though the Waffen SS where know to have commited many war crimes during the war especially on the eastern front. The army probably commited more war crimes % wise. The SS was orginaly only a political military arm of the NAZI regime, under Himmler they created the Waffen SS. At first they where not well supplied nor, trained. Basicly they where devout cannon fodder. Later in the war they where better trained, armed, and supplied though they where a small fighting force in the overall Wehrmacht. The Army never considered them to be elite forces, and mostly depised the SS. Only Himmler, and the Nazi progangda machine made them out to be an elite fighting force. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen_SS

I forgot to add that this guy has every right to apouse anything he likes on his own property. Though the neighbours can equaly do something back to him.
 
This is degenerating into an argument about the SS itself, not any discussion of the man himself.

Do the Wikipedia and Snopes stuff and all that yourownselves.

Doesn't matter if it's the Nazis of Skokie, the KKK somewhere or this guy. The deal is that absent any advocacy of violence or crime, he can say and think whatever foolish notion strikes his fancy.

Just as we do here, every day.

Art
 
There were 950,000 men in the Waffen SS. It was a military unit, like the Marines or the Air Force. The other, smaller "SS" groups like the Totenkopf SS (Death's Head SS) were primarily the ones who committed atrocities, ran concentration camps, etc.
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I think the fact that this particular SS man wants to make a memorial to HITLER is a pretty good sign he was indeed one of the evil SS. He should never have been allowed to become a citizen or migrate here, and his record should be looked into to see if he lied on the forms at the time (which he most likely did). If so, send him out to the mid-Atlantic and drop him off in his new homeland.
 
Deanimator, perhaps you have never heard of Dresden or Tokyo? You know, burning 100,000 civilians alive and all that?
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I've heard of Guernica, Rotterdam, Nanking and Manila too.

Maybe starting WWII and murdering millions of people wasn't such a good idea?

The purpose of the USAAF was to defend the United States from people like him.

The purpose of the SS in ALL its various slimy incarnations was to murder people like Anne Frank, the GIs at Malmedy and the civilians at Babi Yar and Ouradour sur Glaine, directly or indirectly.

I suggest you read Heinz Hoehne's "Order of the Death's Head" and Sydnor's "Soldiers of Destruction".

About the ONLY nice thing you can say about the SS was that they were sharp dressers.

He shouldn't have been allowed into this country.

He should have been HANGED.
 
"They said he was a racist. It's a lie," Junker said. "He advocated for, he was in favor of these people. He respected other races."
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He doesn't seem to be advocating hate or anything else, just revisionist history. If he really believed Hitler was so tolerant, why do you think that he, as a soldier during the war, would have committed atrocities or war crimes?

He's an old man who sees his side through rose-colored glasses. Big deal - we do the same thing, though maybe not to this degree. Leave the guy alone and let him die.
 
Leave the guy alone and let him die.
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That's an interesting attitude, but I wonder if you'd stick with it were your interests at stake.

One experiment would be for someone to torture your family to death and disappear for twenty years. Then he could stop you in the street and ask you if there were still any hard feelings...
 
You don't see me hunting down Russian communists, do you?

And not all of them are 90-year-old men, either.

Edit: And don't forget the countless yuppies with Che t-shirts.
 
Deanimator&Cosmoline, stick your head in a bucket of cold water and cool down. IF I would enforce same policy you here advocate, then every american soldier of that period should be hanged - they're raison d'etre was to kill every single german and japanese alive, exactly what you're saying.

Why can't you understand at last that people fought for their ideals, for their country and freedom, whatever the country, whatever the side. In war things happen, but most soldiers were just soldiers, following orders, fighting for the "right thing". A few were actual criminals, there was one dr. Mengele, not hordes of clones of him. Instead of blind and ignorant hate of all germans as such condemn certain real people for the acts they made. If you can prove the guy's a criminal, then so be it, he's worthy of condeming and judging. If you can't then shut up and respect the same values US preaches - freedom, right of existence and free speech, innocent until proven quilty etc. Just that he's saying Hitler was a nice guy doesn't make him the devil's advocate who's only purpose is the ethnic cleansing (what happened to the native americans by the way?). Maybe he has some loose nuts so he puts up all kinds of gibberish, or instead of flapping around you might actually listen what he's saying and focus on his arguments (as we're mostly doing in Highroad) instead of bashing the person simply because we don't like what he's saying.
Everybody remember one thing, world is a wide place with lots of different views on history (you all know my views of communist crimes issue), people see and understand things differently, based on their cultural and historical background. For example, in the US soil there was only 1 war for existence, we have had these for centuries and many times.
 
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Why can't you understand at last that people fought for their ideals, for their country and freedom, whatever the country, whatever the side.
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Yeah, but last time I checked, American ideals in WWII didn't involve stuffing Jews into ovens.

Yay for moral relativism!
 
"The major difference between the Warsaw Ghetto and Waco was scale. The perpetrators largely resembled each other."

Not so. In fact, it's not even close. Nice try on a sound bite with spin though, but you won't convince anyone who knows even the bare facts of the real history.
The Branch Davidians weren't herded together, starved for 2.5 years and shipped to death camps. The basic dates begin with 9/40(see orders below) and run until the beginning of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising in 4/43.

John

P.S. - Just to point out one of the regs, under #2, listed below. The Poles had to move out to make room for the Jews, but "Poles are not permitted to move into the German quarter."
____________________

"1. On the basis of the Regulation for Restrictions on Residence in the Government-General of September 13, 1940 (V.Bl.G.G.I., p. 288), a Jewish quarter is to be formed in the city of Warsaw, in which the Jews living in the city of Warsaw, or still to move there, must take up residence. The [Jewish] quarter will be set off from the rest of the city by the following streets: [here follows a list of streets and sections of streets]....

2. Poles residing in the Jewish quarter must move their domicile into the other part of the city by October 31, 1940. Apartments will be provided by the Housing Office of the Polish City Hall.

Poles who have not given up their apartments in the Jewish quarter by the above date will be forcibly moved. In the event of a forcible removal they will be permitted to take only refugee [style] luggage (Fluechtlingsgepaeck), bed-linen, and articles of sentimental value.

Poles are not permitted to move into the German quarter.

3. Jews living outside the Jewish quarter must move into the Jewish area of residence by October 31, 1940. They may take only refugee luggage and bed-linen. Apartments will be allocated by the Jewish Elder (Judenaeltester).

4. The Appointed Mayor of the Polish City Hall and the Jewish Elder are responsible for the orderly move of the Jews to the Jewish quarter, and the punctual move of the Poles away from the Jewish quarter, in accordance with a plan yet to be worked out, which will provide for the evacuation by stages of the individual Police districts.

5. The Representative of the District Governor of the city of Warsaw will give the necessary detailed instructions to the Jewish Elder for the establishing and permanent closure of the Jewish quarter.

6. The Representative of the District Governor of the city of Warsaw will issue regulations for the execution of this Decree.

7. Any person contravening this Decree, or the Regulations for its execution, will be punished in accordance with the existing laws on punishment.

Head of the Warsaw District

Dr. Fischer

Governor"

Eksterminacja, pp. 95-97.
 
Deanimator&Cosmoline, stick your head in a bucket of cold water and cool down. IF I would enforce same policy you here advocate, then every american soldier of that period should be hanged - they're raison d'etre was to kill every single german and japanese alive, exactly what you're saying.

Why can't you understand at last that people fought for their ideals, for their country and freedom, whatever the country, whatever the side.
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Strange that the US military was so UTTERLY ineffective in trying to "kill every single german and japanese alive". They seemed to achieve most everything ELSE they put their minds to. Maybe it's because what you claim isn't true?

As for people's "ideals", NAMBLA has ideals too. Their right to do so aside, do you ENCOURAGE them to advocate those ideals?

That old man is the moral equivalent of Father Shanley (although admittedly NAMBLA just wants to rape prepubescent boys, not gas them), exercising his right to advocate hideously abhorrent ideas up until the point at which they create a "clear and present danger". Despicable people have rights. I respect their RIGHTS because they're the same rights I have. I don't have to respect the monster who holds those rights, be he this guy or Jeffrey Dahmer.

As for him being a former SS man, that should have excluded him from COMING here, much less becoming a citizen. We have plenty of homegrown evil people. I see no need to import them. He probably took a minimum wage job away from some Klansman...
 
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