Revolver Hunting: 460, 44, or 357?

[Big Bore TX]

My Smith 460 is one of the most docile handguns I own. Kicks way less than my .429 magnum, aka, the .44 magnum poser. The weight of it, plus brake, tames max book loads with ease.

Something that keeps coming up is that 'dead is dead' and if the .44 is enough, why go bigger? The simple fact is this, and quite frankly can't really be argued...the 460 will consistently (in trained and qualified hands) 100% of the time deliver a quicker and more authoritative kill on any animal. I'm not arguing against the use of a 44 (I've owned a plethora), and one of my favorite calibers is the 41 magnum, but how can any sportsman worth his/her salt insinuate that a quicker, cleaner kill...isn't necessary? That goes so far against what I've been taught and come to respect through years of hands-on, field experience.

Furthermore, getting a measly deer-sized animal down quickly, sometimes is less about a 'want' and more about a 'necessity'. Take Texas for example - 98% privately owned and most ranches are leased by multiple members. Mine is a perfect example of a standard Texas deer lease. 1000 low-fence acres, shared by 6 hunters. A motivated deer with a strong will to live can cross enough real estate in a matter of minutes and either cross onto someone else's land, or, into one of your lease members hunting area. Neither are favorable results.

Shoot your poser magnum if you want. Your choice. But seriously, if you question why someone would choose a 460 over the 429, I would question your hands on field experience with it on actual blood trails. As short as they may be...

Good grief...

 

[Tradmark]

Right on, i took 13 animals in africa. I fired 14 times with a 460. Cape buff eland sable gemsbok waterbuck etc. 14th shot was cuz i wanted too.

 

[Tradmark]

Where we hunt, deer make it over the fence with smaller caliber like 44 and 357’s. There are degrees of dead.

 

[CraigC]

My Smith 460 is one of the most docile handguns I own. Kicks way less than my .429 magnum, aka, the .44 magnum poser. The weight of it, plus brake, tames max book loads with ease.

Something that keeps coming up is that 'dead is dead' and if the .44 is enough, why go bigger? The simple fact is this, and quite frankly can't really be argued...the 460 will consistently (in trained and qualified hands) 100% of the time deliver a quicker and more authoritative kill on any animal. I'm not arguing against the use of a 44 (I've owned a plethora), and one of my favorite calibers is the 41 magnum, but how can any sportsman worth his/her salt insinuate that a quicker, cleaner kill...isn't necessary? That goes so far against what I've been taught and come to respect through years of hands-on, field experience.

Furthermore, getting a measly deer-sized animal down quickly, sometimes is less about a 'want' and more about a 'necessity'. Take Texas for example - 98% privately owned and most ranches are leased by multiple members. Mine is a perfect example of a standard Texas deer lease. 1000 low-fence acres, shared by 6 hunters. A motivated deer with a strong will to live can cross enough real estate in a matter of minutes and either cross onto someone else's land, or, into one of your lease members hunting area. Neither are favorable results.

Shoot your poser magnum if you want. Your choice. But seriously, if you question why someone would choose a 460 over the 429, I would question your hands on field experience with it on actual blood trails. As short as they may be...

Good grief...

Higher velocity and rapid expansion kills quicker, this is no revelation. At all. Ever. So this notion that the .460 kills deer quicker is not only not in question but it goes without saying. You can use anything you want as everyone is free to make their own choices and for whatever reason. Also obvious. What is undeniable fact is that all the "extra" the .460 offers is not NECESSARY to kill deer. Even the .44Mag, .45Colt, .480Ruger, .475Linebaugh, .500Linebaugh, .500JRH and .500S&W are not necessary to kill deer. Nothing above the .41Mag is "necessary" to kill deer. YOU, as an individual may choose one of those to hunt deer with for whatever reason. Whether you just like it, you just want to, or you want to minimize the length of your blood trail. That is purely personal preference and 100% valid. No one said it wasn't. My point, is that I don't personally care for the trade-off in the weight of the firearm, the cost of ammo and/or handloads, muzzle blast, etc.. That's my personal preference and no amount of whining or baiting regarding "poser" magnums is going to change that. I don't have a .460 because I think they are silly. However, I do have a Dan Wesson .445 that is just as long, heavy and unwieldy. I'm not going to get my panties in a wad because someone says it's "unnecessary" to kill deer. Why this simple notion triggers such a hysterical response from those so heavily emotionally invested in whatever doctrine they subscribe to is beyond me.

 

[WisBorn]

My Smith 460 is one of the most docile handguns I own. Kicks way less than my .429 magnum, aka, the .44 magnum poser. The weight of it, plus brake, tames max book loads with ease.

Something that keeps coming up is that 'dead is dead' and if the .44 is enough, why go bigger? The simple fact is this, and quite frankly can't really be argued...the 460 will consistently (in trained and qualified hands) 100% of the time deliver a quicker and more authoritative kill on any animal. I'm not arguing against the use of a 44 (I've owned a plethora), and one of my favorite calibers is the 41 magnum, but how can any sportsman worth his/her salt insinuate that a quicker, cleaner kill...isn't necessary? That goes so far against what I've been taught and come to respect through years of hands-on, field experience.

Furthermore, getting a measly deer-sized animal down quickly, sometimes is less about a 'want' and more about a 'necessity'. Take Texas for example - 98% privately owned and most ranches are leased by multiple members. Mine is a perfect example of a standard Texas deer lease. 1000 low-fence acres, shared by 6 hunters. A motivated deer with a strong will to live can cross enough real estate in a matter of minutes and either cross onto someone else's land, or, into one of your lease members hunting area. Neither are favorable results.

Shoot your poser magnum if you want. Your choice. But seriously, if you question why someone would choose a 460 over the 429, I would question your hands on field experience with it on actual blood trails. As short as they may be...

Good grief...

Thank you for your response.
I'm afraid that ethics has left hunting.
You mentioned deer crossing onto a different lease as being a problem.

When my Dad and I bought our property in 1993 We talked with our neighbors, if they shot a deer they were more than welcome to come on to the property to retrieve their game and vise versa I finished a couple deer that came across the fence line and went and found the hunter that originally shot the animal.
I don't find any pride in claiming game that I didn't shoot or respect for thieves that claim animals that they did not shoot.

I also don't respect people that don't respect the game they pursue.
1) Use enough gun
2) Don't push the distance past the guns or shooters capabilities
3) Don't take questionable shots.

 

[Tradmark]

Higher velocity and rapid expansion kills quicker, this is no revelation. At all. Ever. So this notion that the .460 kills deer quicker is not only not in question but it goes without saying. You can use anything you want as everyone is free to make their own choices and for whatever reason. Also obvious. What is undeniable fact is that all the "extra" the .460 offers is not NECESSARY to kill deer. Even the .44Mag, .45Colt, .480Ruger, .475Linebaugh, .500Linebaugh, .500JRH and .500S&W are not necessary to kill deer. Nothing above the .41Mag is "necessary" to kill deer. YOU, as an individual may choose one of those to hunt deer with for whatever reason. Whether you just like it, you just want to, or you want to minimize the length of your blood trail. That is purely personal preference and 100% valid. No one said it wasn't. My point, is that I don't personally care for the trade-off in the weight of the firearm, the cost of ammo and/or handloads, muzzle blast, etc.. That's my personal preference and no amount of whining or baiting regarding "poser" magnums is going to change that. I don't have a .460 because I think they are silly. However, I do have a Dan Wesson .445 that is just as long, heavy and unwieldy. I'm not going to get my panties in a wad because someone says it's "unnecessary" to kill deer. Why this simple notion triggers such a hysterical response from those so heavily emotionally invested in whatever doctrine they subscribe to is beyond me.

When one shoots enough stuff and sees those calibers fail and cost ya money in africa the mind changes

 

[Tradmark]

Simple as that

 

[CraigC]

I'm mostly talking about deer hunting but also turkeys and hogs.

Hmmm, no mention of Africa. Those pesky proclivities again.

If you lose a deer sized critter shot with anything from .41Mag and up, you either chose the wrong bullet or placed it very poorly. Maybe shooting lessons are in order.

Deer aren't particularly hard to kill.....

I guess the rhetoric changes with the agenda.

 

[MaxP]

I guess the rhetoric changes with the agenda.

Agenda? What’s your agenda, to discredit me?

Deer aren’t that hard to kill, but they often show a will to live that exceeds expectations. Well hit, they can still cover some ground. I’ve also been know to say “each and every animal is a law unto itself,” but maybe you missed that one while trying to trip me up. The thing is that I have used a wide range of revolver rounds on game, and have seen what high speed and a good bullet can do.

 

[captain awesome]

I love these threads

A sharp stick will kill a deer too...and has. Doesn't mean its a good choice.

460 as over kill? maybe... but who cares? It puts them down quick and that's not a bad thing.

I intend to shoot an elk this year with my 500 magnum if I get a chance. I could probably do the same with a 44 mag, but would rather go with a MORE sure thing that it will hopefully drop where it stands. Recoil doesn't bother me, and my particular version is very packable. I won't fault someone for using a 357 mag or 10mm on a whitetail deer, you just won't catch me doing it. Not because i don't think it would succeed but I am just more comfortable using more gun.

Last deer I shot was with a 300 win mag. It went down quick. Could have done it with a variety of things including handguns...but no regrets.

 

[captain awesome]

The 44 magnum works very well on deer, as well as javelina and other game. You just need to put the right bullet in the right spot, and you've got meat in the freezer!

Single action or double action, I have invited my gunsmith and his his wife out to my ranch, and have watched both of them shoot game out to 200 yards with their 44 magnums, and kill both deer and hogs grave yard dead! After learning how to "dial our scopes in" and make drop tables for each gun and load, we have all killed coyotes out well past 200 yards with a well placed shot, and custom 44 magnums like these make long shooting sessions a whole lot of fun because of the reduced recoil with full power loads, and a perfectly light trigger pull.

Yeah, a bigger caliber may extend your shooting range, but the extra recoil and muzzle blast take all the fun out of it. With our 44 magnums, even my little wife at just 5 feet tall and 115 pounds soaking wet, can go through 100 rounds in an afternoon of shooting, load them back up that night, and go shoot again the next day without any issues at all.

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Carpman,
Those are gorgeous. Where did you have the work done?

 

[Carpman62]

Thank you C. A.

We sure do like them, and have killed a LOT of game and varmints with that pair of .44's.

His name is David and his email is: [email protected]

Here is his website/forum with lots of pictures:
https://www.precisionriflesmith.com

Tell him that "Carpman62" from The High Road sent you!

 

[CraigC]

Agenda? What’s your agenda, to discredit me?

Deer aren’t that hard to kill, but they often show a will to live that exceeds expectations. Well hit, they can still cover some ground. I’ve also been know to say “each and every animal is a law unto itself,” but maybe you missed that one while trying to trip me up. The thing is that I have used a wide range of revolver rounds on game, and have seen what high speed and a good bullet can do.

No agenda, ever. Once again, I'm trying to have a polite conversation without the interjection of the peanut gallery. However, when one argues that they'd use 10mm on Cape buffalo but then says that the .41Mag, .44Spl, .44Mag and 45Colt are not enough for deer, it makes one question one's motivations and/or credibility.

A 10mm wouldn't be my first choice, just because I prefer bigger hammers, but as long as you have the right bullets (much more important than caliber), and your placement is good, what's the issue? If you have a bullet that will stay together and track straight and deep, a dead bovine will ensue.

Are there degrees of dead I am not aware of?

There are degrees of dead.

You guys need to get your stories straight so you can better coordinate your attacks.

 

[MaxP]

But as long as you use the right bullet...you keep glossing over this. No one, especially me, has ever said those calibers weren't enough for deer. What I did say, and others who have used the .460 (this is key, so pay attention) have observed, is that it hits a lot harder and as long as you do your part, and place your bullets well, your deer may hit the ground sooner, thereby lessening the chances of it making its way over the fence of an adjoining property. You dismiss it outright as only being a long-range tool. Also, as far as 10mm for Cape buffalo, I have seen Razor Dobbs shoot, and he can place his bullets and he clearly knows the anatomy of what he is hunting. Something I would suggest everyone does particularly against large animals. Dobbs is an exceptional shot. So he can make the 10mm work in these situations. Me? I'll use something bigger - the same message I always use.

Coordinated attacks? Your paranoia is showing. You keep digging deeper, spurring on counters by .460 USERS. Now let it go.

 

[CraigC]

But as long as you use the right bullet...you keep glossing over this. No one, especially me, has ever said those calibers weren't enough for deer.

So what does "unimpressive" mean?

When one shoots enough stuff and sees those calibers fail and cost ya money in africa the mind changes

Or this?

What I did say, and others who have used the .460 (this is key, so pay attention) have observed, is that it hits a lot harder and as long as you do your part, and place your bullets well, your deer may hit the ground sooner, thereby lessening the chances of it making its way over the fence of an adjoining property. You dismiss it outright as only being a long-range tool.

Higher velocity and rapid expansion kills quicker, this is no revelation. At all. Ever. So this notion that the .460 kills deer quicker is not only not in question but it goes without saying.

Reading comprehension, it's a thing. I've never hunted where a deer running 10yds or 50yds was an issue so this is not a consideration of mine. Else I wouldn't hunt with handguns, archery or traditional muzzleloaders.

Coordinated attacks? Your paranoia is showing.

You forget, I know all too well how this works. If I had a dollar for every time.......

 

[CraigC]

So if we agree that those aforementioned cartridges work just fine and that the .460 is more cartridge than is needed to kill deer, used only by those who need more range and/or want to minimize blood trails then we have no argument.

 

[MaxP]

Keep digging, Craig. You've come full circle and changed nobody's mind.

I can bet you will respond yet again (if I had dollar for every time on ever site...).

 

[CraigC]

If you read my PM, that's where I'm leaving it.

 

[Tradmark]

Thats the problem with being paranoid craig. We dont coordinate. I feel no need to agreee with max or you. Often dont with either. Once again your implications fall flat as basically proof, not of inconsistencies, but if lack of coordination. If max thinks theres no degree of dead i disagree with him as well. Ive seen the various degrees of dead in The trauma room

 

[Arkansas Paul]

If max thinks theres no degree of dead i disagree with him as well. Ive seen the various degrees of dead in The trauma room

I'm not in the argument over the calibers and won't be.
Both Max and Craig are much more experienced than I, and I have never killed a game animal with a handgun, so I wouldn't argue with either of them.

But I would like to hear more about the degrees of dead.
It seems that if an animal is shot with a gun, and it dies, it is about as dead as it can get. It matters not if it is with a .22 short or a .600 Nitro Express. Dead is dead.

There are certainly degrees of tissue damage. There are certainly matters of how far an animal runs before it dies, and how long it takes to expire.
But an living thing is no more dead when killed with a howitzer than it is when it is killed with a pocket knife.

 

[mcb]

Maybe a little levity? The "degrees of dead" comments always makes me think of this Miracle Max scene in the Princess Bride. Sorry... I will show myself out of the thread...

ETA: dang the gif doesn't work: try this: https://media1.tenor.com/images/ba8dfc8db755685ae2f3f69e07706ca9/tenor.gif?itemid=12754873

 

[HB]

I lump the 460s into the T/C category. They are basically short rifles and can be shot as accurately as one. I think the X Frames are easier to shoot off hand than the TCs. Recoil in the 460 isnt bad but I’ve never shot one without a scope.

454 is too much gun for me to shoot a lot and enjoy. I like 44s out a of beefy gun.

If you can’t kill a deer with a 44 you should step down to a 357 and keep shots close.

 

[Big Bore TX]

I lump the 460s into the T/C category. They are basically short rifles and can be shot as accurately as one. .

Would you mind expanding on this a bit? I'm struggling to understand how a straight walled .45 caliber bullet from a revolver with 7.5"-8.5" barrel is similar to a closed-breech bottleneck caliber, such as a .308 (one of the TC's most popular) in a 15" barrel.

 

[mcb]

Would you mind expanding on this a bit? I'm struggling to understand how a straight walled .45 caliber bullet from a revolver with 7.5"-8.5" barrel is similar to a closed-breech bottleneck caliber, such as a .308 (one of the TC's most popular) in a 15" barrel.

460 S&W operates at a much higher pressure than nearly all other common revolver/pistol cartridges. SAAMI MAP for 460 S&W is rifle level pressures at 65,000 psi (transducer) the only other revolver cartridge operating that high is 454 Casull, with 500 S&W at 60,000 psi (transducer). There are a fair number of rifle cartridge that share this maximum 65,000 psi (transducer) pressure but I believe there are no other cartridge (rifle or otherwise) with a higher MAP spec than 65,000 psi. So in may ways 460 S&W behaves like a rifle cartridge due to this high operating pressure. For comparison 44 Mag is 36,000 psi and 357 Mag is 35,000 psi.

 

[HB]

Would you mind expanding on this a bit? I'm struggling to understand how a straight walled .45 caliber bullet from a revolver with 7.5"-8.5" barrel is similar to a closed-breech bottleneck caliber, such as a .308 (one of the TC's most popular) in a 15" barrel.

They weigh 5 lbs and are effective to 200 yards. Most conventional revolvers are substantially lighter, can be carried on a belt, and shorter effective ranges.

Edit: X-Frames are specialty pistols at a minimum. A Smith 4” 629 could be conceivably be your only pistol. An 8” .460 would not be a great general purpose handgun.