Lu249
Member
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2020
- Messages
- 78
This is a project I have been thinking about for a few months. Ever since I have read about the French Ribeyrolles 1918 carbine, it has intrigued me. As a fan of the Winchester self loading line of rifles, the French Ribeyrolles is sort of an advancement of TC Johnson's original design. Being simple blowback and heavily influenced by the Winchester 1907 SL, it does not seem like too difficult as a build (as compared to other rifles). I am still planning on exactly how I am going to build it but here are some of my ideas:
But first, some history:
From Ian from forgottenweapons.com
"The model 1918 met most of the requirements to be considered an assault rifle by today’s standards – it used an intermediate cartridge, it could fire in both semiautomatic and fully automatic modes, and it was fed by detachable box magazines (with a capacity of 25 rounds). The cartridge it used was a modification of the .351 Winchester WSL cartridge, modified to be semi-rimmed and to use an 8mm Lebel armor-piercing bullet. Unlike modern weapons of this type, however, Ribeyrolles’ rifle used a simple blowback action and this required a quite heavy bolt to work properly. Unloaded, the weapon weighed 11.25 pounds (5.1kg), and the long receiver necessary for the bolt to effectively decelerate gave it an overall length of 1.09m (43 inches) – this was long and heavy for its capabilities. Still, it was conceptually pretty advanced for 1918.
The biggest problem which prevented the gun from seeing any military interest was reliability. At the 1918 trials, it was very unreliable – the one source I sound said that 53 malfunctions were had in 75 rounds of semiautomatic fire. That is definitely a sign of a design not ready for adoption!
Ribeyrolle brought the gun back for more testing in the summer of 1921 at Camp de Chalons, but it does not appear that he had fully cured the reliability problems. In addition, the gun’s futuristic concept left it out of place in the arms lineup envisioned by the French military. It was too heavy and bulky to fill the role of a personal weapon like a submachine gun (note that the SMG ultimately adopted by the French, the MAS-38, is one of the smallest and lightest such guns ever used by a military power). And because of its intermediate cartridge, with a 400 meter effective range, it was considered too underpowered to fill the role of an infantry rifle. And thus, it was rejected, never to be seen again."
There is only one picture of the rifle ever taken (see attached) and that is what I will be basing it on.
First, the ammunition:
The Ribeyrolles 1918 carbine fired the 8mm Riberolles (8x32mmSR or 8x35mmSR) which is the Winchester 351 SL (8.9x35mmSR) necked down to accept the Balle D 8mm bullet. I don't believe this would change the pressure too much as the bullet weight has not changed too much (from 180 g to 198 g) and the case volume has not changed too much from the necking down. I believe that the the 8x32mmSR is probably the more accurate dimensions as an 8mm spitzer bullet is longer than the standard 180 gr .352 round nose bullet of the 351 WSL, which is quite short and stubby for a rifle bullet. I am assuming they wanted to keep it the same length of the 351 WSL cartridge (OAL 1.906") to keep magazine interchangeability with the 1907s they had in service. The pictured magazine looks very similar to the single stack 1907 20 round magazines (besides the slight curvature to accommodate the slight taper of 8mm Riberolles). I typically load my 351 with 17.0 gr of IMR 4227 and would probably load a slightly lighter load to start when the rifle is built.
Next, the magazine:
I will probably build the magazine using 2 10 round 351 WSL Triple K magazines welded together. I calculated that the length of the magazine (taking into account the follower and spring) should be about 10.7" long. For a proof of concept, I will probably 3D print the first one to figure out the correct curvature. Springs will also need to be addressed as Triple K 351 magazines have quite loose springs for the action.
Onto the operating mechanism:
Being that the operating mechanism is simple blowback and heavily inspired by the 1907, that is what I will use as a starting point for my bolt. That means the bolt face and extractor will stay the same. From the picture, it does not look like there is room under the barrel for the counterweight system that is in the 1907. The receiver is much longer though, so they must have added extra weight to the back of the bolt. I think that I will have to remove the counterweight from the front of the bolt and add that to the same weight to the back of the existing bolt. A charging handle is added to the bolt though, which is missing from the 1907 design. This shouldn't be too much of a hassle to added to the bolt (maybe a keyed design like a sten?? it seems there is a psuedo safety notch in the receiver to make this possible).
The receiver is the biggest mystery to me. It is a tubular design (like the RSC 1917 and 1918) instead of the rectangular design of the 1907. It also looks like it has the threaded end cap of the RSC 1917 for disassembly (which strengthens my case for the removal of the counterweight system which would be impossible to disassemble through the end cap). How do I fit a 1907 bolt into a tubular receiver? And what would I use as a base receiver? Maybe shroud a modified 1907 receiver in a faux round receiver? Or maybe a semi auto receiver blank for a submachine gun and have a new bolt fabricated? Another problem is the trigger group. The trigger group is much further back from the breach on the Ribeyrolles than the 1907. This means that either a longer firing pin must be made or a transfer bar/pin must be added to the back of the extra weight added to the bolt. The safety would be changed to look like the one in the picture instead of a push button safety.
Finally, the barrel and stock hardware:
The Ribeyrolles had a 450 mm (17.7") barrel which is almost identical to the same length as the 1916 Berthier carbine. Actually, they are almost exact same overall length as well and actually share most of their hardware as well. Besides weight, they are very similar rifles dimensionally. Both have almost the same exact barrel bands and accept the 1907/15 bayonet as well. But since the 1916 carbine was chambered in 8mm Lebel, using a barrel from it would blow out all the cases. I would probably source my barrel from a sporterized 1907/15 rifle which has a 31.5" barrel and cut it down and ream it out for 8mm Riberolles. That way I can keep the front sight as well as the front hardware of the rifle to unalter the bayonet mounting capabilities. I would source an extra stock set for a 1916 carbine to use. The picture shows a semi pistol grip on the 1918 Ribeyrolles (which is very similar to the one on the 1907 SL) but not present on either 1907/15 or 1916 Berthiers so I might have a new stock made for it if it is necessary. The 1918 Riberolles is also fitted with a bipod of a Chauchaut automatic rifle (or very heavily inspired by it) and has sling swivels similar to the 1907/15.
These are some of the ideas I have for this build. Trying to use as many parts from other rifles to reduce the cost of fabricating new ones. If I decide to build it, I will probably 3D print a prototype before I actually start the real build. I, myself do not have a 3D printer but have a close friend who does and only charges for cost of materials. I am also not a gunsmith but am trying to make it as easy as possible for whoever I send it to as it is quite an abstract build. I can tweak and tune it when it is built but I just do not have the facilities or the time to do stuff like milling the new receiver or reaming out a new barrel.
But first, some history:
From Ian from forgottenweapons.com
"The model 1918 met most of the requirements to be considered an assault rifle by today’s standards – it used an intermediate cartridge, it could fire in both semiautomatic and fully automatic modes, and it was fed by detachable box magazines (with a capacity of 25 rounds). The cartridge it used was a modification of the .351 Winchester WSL cartridge, modified to be semi-rimmed and to use an 8mm Lebel armor-piercing bullet. Unlike modern weapons of this type, however, Ribeyrolles’ rifle used a simple blowback action and this required a quite heavy bolt to work properly. Unloaded, the weapon weighed 11.25 pounds (5.1kg), and the long receiver necessary for the bolt to effectively decelerate gave it an overall length of 1.09m (43 inches) – this was long and heavy for its capabilities. Still, it was conceptually pretty advanced for 1918.
The biggest problem which prevented the gun from seeing any military interest was reliability. At the 1918 trials, it was very unreliable – the one source I sound said that 53 malfunctions were had in 75 rounds of semiautomatic fire. That is definitely a sign of a design not ready for adoption!
Ribeyrolle brought the gun back for more testing in the summer of 1921 at Camp de Chalons, but it does not appear that he had fully cured the reliability problems. In addition, the gun’s futuristic concept left it out of place in the arms lineup envisioned by the French military. It was too heavy and bulky to fill the role of a personal weapon like a submachine gun (note that the SMG ultimately adopted by the French, the MAS-38, is one of the smallest and lightest such guns ever used by a military power). And because of its intermediate cartridge, with a 400 meter effective range, it was considered too underpowered to fill the role of an infantry rifle. And thus, it was rejected, never to be seen again."
There is only one picture of the rifle ever taken (see attached) and that is what I will be basing it on.
First, the ammunition:
The Ribeyrolles 1918 carbine fired the 8mm Riberolles (8x32mmSR or 8x35mmSR) which is the Winchester 351 SL (8.9x35mmSR) necked down to accept the Balle D 8mm bullet. I don't believe this would change the pressure too much as the bullet weight has not changed too much (from 180 g to 198 g) and the case volume has not changed too much from the necking down. I believe that the the 8x32mmSR is probably the more accurate dimensions as an 8mm spitzer bullet is longer than the standard 180 gr .352 round nose bullet of the 351 WSL, which is quite short and stubby for a rifle bullet. I am assuming they wanted to keep it the same length of the 351 WSL cartridge (OAL 1.906") to keep magazine interchangeability with the 1907s they had in service. The pictured magazine looks very similar to the single stack 1907 20 round magazines (besides the slight curvature to accommodate the slight taper of 8mm Riberolles). I typically load my 351 with 17.0 gr of IMR 4227 and would probably load a slightly lighter load to start when the rifle is built.
Next, the magazine:
I will probably build the magazine using 2 10 round 351 WSL Triple K magazines welded together. I calculated that the length of the magazine (taking into account the follower and spring) should be about 10.7" long. For a proof of concept, I will probably 3D print the first one to figure out the correct curvature. Springs will also need to be addressed as Triple K 351 magazines have quite loose springs for the action.
Onto the operating mechanism:
Being that the operating mechanism is simple blowback and heavily inspired by the 1907, that is what I will use as a starting point for my bolt. That means the bolt face and extractor will stay the same. From the picture, it does not look like there is room under the barrel for the counterweight system that is in the 1907. The receiver is much longer though, so they must have added extra weight to the back of the bolt. I think that I will have to remove the counterweight from the front of the bolt and add that to the same weight to the back of the existing bolt. A charging handle is added to the bolt though, which is missing from the 1907 design. This shouldn't be too much of a hassle to added to the bolt (maybe a keyed design like a sten?? it seems there is a psuedo safety notch in the receiver to make this possible).
The receiver is the biggest mystery to me. It is a tubular design (like the RSC 1917 and 1918) instead of the rectangular design of the 1907. It also looks like it has the threaded end cap of the RSC 1917 for disassembly (which strengthens my case for the removal of the counterweight system which would be impossible to disassemble through the end cap). How do I fit a 1907 bolt into a tubular receiver? And what would I use as a base receiver? Maybe shroud a modified 1907 receiver in a faux round receiver? Or maybe a semi auto receiver blank for a submachine gun and have a new bolt fabricated? Another problem is the trigger group. The trigger group is much further back from the breach on the Ribeyrolles than the 1907. This means that either a longer firing pin must be made or a transfer bar/pin must be added to the back of the extra weight added to the bolt. The safety would be changed to look like the one in the picture instead of a push button safety.
Finally, the barrel and stock hardware:
The Ribeyrolles had a 450 mm (17.7") barrel which is almost identical to the same length as the 1916 Berthier carbine. Actually, they are almost exact same overall length as well and actually share most of their hardware as well. Besides weight, they are very similar rifles dimensionally. Both have almost the same exact barrel bands and accept the 1907/15 bayonet as well. But since the 1916 carbine was chambered in 8mm Lebel, using a barrel from it would blow out all the cases. I would probably source my barrel from a sporterized 1907/15 rifle which has a 31.5" barrel and cut it down and ream it out for 8mm Riberolles. That way I can keep the front sight as well as the front hardware of the rifle to unalter the bayonet mounting capabilities. I would source an extra stock set for a 1916 carbine to use. The picture shows a semi pistol grip on the 1918 Ribeyrolles (which is very similar to the one on the 1907 SL) but not present on either 1907/15 or 1916 Berthiers so I might have a new stock made for it if it is necessary. The 1918 Riberolles is also fitted with a bipod of a Chauchaut automatic rifle (or very heavily inspired by it) and has sling swivels similar to the 1907/15.
These are some of the ideas I have for this build. Trying to use as many parts from other rifles to reduce the cost of fabricating new ones. If I decide to build it, I will probably 3D print a prototype before I actually start the real build. I, myself do not have a 3D printer but have a close friend who does and only charges for cost of materials. I am also not a gunsmith but am trying to make it as easy as possible for whoever I send it to as it is quite an abstract build. I can tweak and tune it when it is built but I just do not have the facilities or the time to do stuff like milling the new receiver or reaming out a new barrel.
