Rifle accuracy - 3 vs. 5 shot Something I do not get?

[CountryUgly]

Fact of the matter is a Savage Axis in nearly every caliber it's offered can pull 5 shot MOA groups at 100 yards. Unless you shoot for competition focus more on what you can do and not the rifle because chances are the rifle in this day and age will out shoot you.

 

[JustinJ]

Our Hero is a real Internet Commando. He has watched the movie Heat 87 times, is registered on all of the important Internet firearms forums, knows the difference between a “clip” and a “magazine” and attends every local gun show without fail.

Now that was funny. It made me imagine a bunch of Navy SEAL's standing around and talking about how important it is to never call a magazine a clip.

In testing a guns accuracy i like the average of five groups of five shots. Three groups of a five is acceptable but five of five is better.

 

[MachIVshooter]

3 shot groups are for sighting in.

5 shot groups are a decent measure of system capabilities.

10+ shot groups give you bragging rights

"Flyers" are not an excuse for reducing your group size claims by taking the best 4 out of 5 or 9 out of 10; To me, a flyer is a hole you ignore because something obviously wen't very wrong with that shot, and you have enough time behind that rifle to know this for a fact. 4 holes inside an inch and one 1/2" away from the rest is not a flyer, but 4 bullets inside an inch and one on the other side of the target with a rifle that you know can consistently group well tells you that at least one varibale (most likely you) caused the errant shot. It's about being honest with yourself first and foremost.

I will state the bench capabilities of my rifles based on 5 shot group averages. But I'm not a competetive shooter, and as has been mentioned, for those of us who hunt, the one-shot group is king. It doesn't really matter if a hunting rifle can print itty-bitty clover leafs "all day long" if that first cold bore shot doesn't go where it needs to, and it doesn't matter if the groups open way up as the barrel heats as long as the first couple rounds DO go where they should.

 

[JustinJ]

If i'm shooting for groups and i pull a shot i'll discount it as a flyer but only because i know it was bad on my part before ever looking at the target.

 

[Savage99]

A rifleman must define what the specific purpose of a particular rifle and it's load is for? Another topic would be my target rifles that must shoot 120 shot matches and more. My comments are only about hunting rifles.

For instance, to my standards and wants, a hunting rifle for varmints or deer must put it's first shot from a cold bore right where I want it and be able to do it again on the next day's hunting.

In other words it must stay sighted in! This, to me, is most important.

Where I hunt there is no need for multiple shots. A second finisher is the most I need and that's rare.

Thus I shoot two shot groups and most important I record and keep a record of where the first shot hits every time from each rifles cold fouled bore.

Here is a target from one of my varmint rifles fired at 200 yds. to confirm this rifles zero. It's a 243 Kimber Montana.

 

[X-Rap]

Before you go moving your sight it is important to know what group the gun can shoot. I prefer 5 shots. A lot of ammo is wasted by guys moving their sight every shot trying to zero a gun that is grouping over what they are adjusting for.
Once you know the load and gun are good the a 3 shot group to verify is plenty.

 

[henschman]

I think the best test of both zero and shooter capability is a series of 1-shot groups... like a page of inch squares. Put a round through each and look at the combined dispersion of your rounds over all the targets. This forces you to acquire NPOA for every shot, and makes it less likely that the pattern of dispersion you are seeing is due to NPOA slippling and muscle being introduced. Plus it is more like the type of shooting you do in the field.

That said, it is easier and quicker to just zero with 5-shot groups... which is what I usually do. Then sometimes I will prove or fine-tune my zero by shooting a page of 1-shot groups.

 

[beatledog7]

...best test of both zero and shooter capability is a series of 1-shot groups... like a page of inch squares

I like that concept. A lot.

 

[TxBobS]

All of my rifles shoot 1/4 MOA consistently in 1 shot groups. Why mess with perfection by shooting more rounds.

 

[TwoEyedJack]

Different rifles are used for different purposes and should have different accuracy tests. For my .338 win mag and .270 win, I only care about the first shot out of a cold, uncleaned barrel. That shot had better be exactly where I expect it to be.

 

[TonyAngel]

I think the best test of both zero and shooter capability is a series of 1-shot groups

I whole heartedly agree with this. It's the reason why the groups I post are old. I really don't shoot for groups any longer. Not for practice, anyway. I shoot dot drills consisting of 25 1/2" targets per page. The name of the game is, after all, hitting your target; not seeing how consistently you can miss.

It's also a good way to see how you and your rifle handle transitions by taking note of the points of impact as you move from target to target. It's not unusual to see a target sheet with three or four groups on it with some nice tight groups that don't all reflect the same point of impact. This is usually because the shooter is doing something different every time he/she moves to sight in on a different target.

 

[mshootnit]

5 shot groups are kind of nice to know what your rifle is doing.
3 shots is adequate to zero the gun.
If you use 3 shots to zero and they are inside of 3/4" at 100 yds. Go shooting and enjoy! The only groups of 10 that matter to me are 10 furs hangining side by side on stretchers.

 

[jmr40]

Three shots are more than adequate for a hunting rifle. It would be very rare for you to get off more than 3 shots in a hunting situation anyway and I could care less where shots #4 and #5 land.

The key is consistency. If I fire five separate 3 shot groups it tells me exactly the same thing as three separate 5 shot groups. One good group, either 5 shots or 3 shots does not tell me much. A series of 3 shot groups fired over several weeks/months under varying weather condtions is what I'm concerned with. The 2 rifles I hunt with the most haven't put 3 shots into over .75" in a over a year. That is over 30 consecutive shots from each rifle, with many groups under .5". I honestly don't think I could have done that with 5 shot groups. To a target shooter who fires 5+ shots in a string that may be a factor. But it tells me what I want to know about my rifles and how I use them.

If you want to find out how acurate your rife is put up a target at 100 yards and fire one shot from a cold barrel at the target. Take that target down and put it back up and do the same think each range trip for a year.

 

[HOOfan_1]

If for hunting.. who cares about 3 or 5 shot groups.

My chance to say BINGO!
I sight my .30-06 hunting rifle in with 3 shot groups...I am not wasting my ammo on 10 shot groups. I've shot a few 5 shot groups with it just to see how accurate it was...(2.5"-3"). Most people would say that is horrible accuracy, but it has yet to dissapoint me in the field. If I can take a deer in the lungs/heart area at 300 yards I am happy, and the gun has proved it can do that.

For working up loads...5 shot groups are good enough for me....again I am not wasting premium bullets on 10 shot groups.

This constant labeling other people as "internet commandos" gets very tiring.

 

[Kachok]

With featherweight rifles I shoot 3 round groups, with sporter weight rifles I shoot 5 round groups, and with bull barrels I will shoot 10 or more. It all has to do with heat, the thin barrels get really really hot after only 3 or 4 rounds back to back and you have to let them cool. I will shoot 3 seperate 3rd groups with the light rifles to verify accuracy. Just my .02

 

[tahoe2]

groups

I have not read all the posts on this subject, but here goes; Dad (retired Marine) taught me to shoot a "full mag, or cylinder, or tube full",
for an accurate assessment of my gun and my own ability to put bullets on target.

For instance;
Browning-Challenger pistol 22lr, 10 shot mag
Marlin 70hc rifle 22lr, 7 shot mag
Remington 7400 .280 Rem, 4 shot detachable mag
Yugo mauser 8mm, 5 shot fixed mag
Marlin .375 Win, 5 shot tube mag

You get the picture: any gun should be able to keep a respectable group until the barrel heats up(IMO).
As for hunting rifles or handguns, if I can't get it done with one magazine or cylinder full, then I need to practice more.

I shoot from the bench/sandbags to evaluate loads/reloads, once I find a load I like,
then I practice shooting from various field positions, sitting, kneeling, standing etc... because hunting in the field rarely presents a perfect shot.

 

[meanmrmustard]

I have not read all the posts on this subject, but here goes; Dad (retired Marine) taught me to shoot a "full mag, or cylinder, or tube full",
for an accurate assessment of my gun and my own ability to put bullets on target.

For instance;
Browning-Challenger pistol 22lr, 10 shot mag
Marlin 70hc rifle 22lr, 7 shot mag
Remington 7400 .280 Rem, 4 shot detachable mag
Yugo mauser 8mm, 5 shot fixed mag
Marlin .375 Win, 5 shot tube mag

You get the picture: any gun should be able to keep a respectable group until the barrel heats up(IMO).
As for hunting rifles or handguns, if I can't get it done with one magazine or cylinder full, then I need to practice more.

I shoot from the bench/sandbags to evaluate loads/reloads, once I find a load I like,
then I practice shooting from various field positions, sitting, kneeling, standing etc... because hunting in the field rarely presents a perfect shot.

Hunting in the field sometimes doesn't allow for 4-10 shots either.

 

[tahoe2]

mrmustard

agreed !! 1 or 2 usually!