Rifle cleaning?

[pax]

My son just came home from a weekend spent at a local range learning to shoot through the NRA junior marksman program. The way this program works, as it is run at our local range through the CAP program, is that the kids spend a couple days at the range, shooting the club guns, and then they have an award ceremony at the end of the weekend to make a big hoorah for the kids' achievements.

The old codger who runs the range is a crotchety old guy, who I'd tagged as basically heart-of-gold with a crusty exterior. Figured he knew his stuff, elsewise how'd he get to be so old?

Apparently, when Jeremy was first handed one of the rifles, he did as I have always taught, and checked both by sight & by feel to be sure the firearm was unloaded. The RO said, "Don't do that! Just look, don't touch."

The RO did not want him to check by feel because the rifles -- all .22s -- were excessively dirty, with black greasy gunk everywhere. When he remarked on the dirt, the RO responded, "Oh, we never clean these rifles. That would disturb the accuracy and wear out the barrels faster. Fact is, some of these older guns probably have a million rounds through 'em. We just swab out the chambers every once in awhile is all."

*blink*

No skin off my nose, as these aren't my rifles.

But I'm left wondering. If the tale brought back to me by my kid is completely accurate, is there a safety issue with the uncleaned guns? I'd always heard that lead fouling could lead to overpressures and thus to Bad Things Happening. Of course, we're only talking about .22s after all so maybe that's not an issue.

Am I missing the boat here?

Discuss...

pax

 

[cracked butt]

.22's, unless they are high end target rifles don't need to have their bores cleaned for the most part, especially if only if ungilded lead bullets are being shot through them.

The action and chamber should be kept clean for functioning and to avoid attracting dirt and debris.

 

[dav]

Actually, I have heard that it can be dangerous cleaning .22's, due only to the chance of getting small slices on your hands/fingers that can easily get infected.

I suppose that could apply to chamber checks, too.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

I concur with the opinion that most .22s don't need to be cleaned, but include target guns in that. The reason is that they don't foul the bore much, and running a cleaning rod through the barrel can cause excessive wear. (Cleaning rods for .22s are nearly bore diameter and rimfires tend to use barrels of relatively soft steel.)

With the advent of the Hoppe's BoreSnake the excessive wear is less of an issue, and may be useful in humid climes where you might want to leave the bore with a light coat of oil so it doesn't rust. However, the wax lubrication on many .22s will leave a protective residue as well.

The parts that's not a bad idea to clean is the chamber. To do so you can wet a Q-Tip with Hoppe's No.9 or a CLP and swab it out, then use a dry Q-Tip to ensure that there's not too much remaining. Cleaning the chamber like this can prevent sticky extraction.

Cleaning the action of a .22 is another ball of wax. They often get quite dirty, especially semiautos. I do a quick wipedown inside the action after shooting any of my .22s. I don't worry about getting it spotless, just keeping the gunk from building up too much.

 

[Telperion]

Just speculation, but maybe lead abatement is one of their concerns, especially with children. .22LR is a dirty cartridge, and that "black greasy gunk" is full of lead, antimony, and barium salts.

 

[R.H. Lee]

"Oh, we never clean these rifles. That would disturb the accuracy and wear out the barrels faster. Fact is, some of these older guns probably have a million rounds through 'em. We just swab out the chambers every once in awhile is all."

Well, I don't know what kind of rifles they are (bolt actions?), but .22 rf is a really dirty cartridge, and you need to clean out more than the chamber. The action gets really carbon fouled and will cease to function (on a semi-auto anyway). It is not necessary to clean the bore of a .22 rf in my experience.

 

[jefnvk]

I always run a bore snake down it after shooting. Don't know if hurts to shoot dirty, but it doesn't hurt to shoot clean.

 

[pax]

Telperion ~

Your post made a lot of sense to me. If you're not going to clean your rifle, it's probably a good idea to keep your fingers out of the goo. All the same I have to wonder about the safety balance between the risk of lead poisoning versus the risk of an AD/ND caused by a too-hasty visual inspection of the chamber.

Actually, I have heard that it can be dangerous cleaning .22's, due only to the chance of getting small slices on your hands/fingers that can easily get infected.

I suppose that could apply to chamber checks, too.

dav ~

How is that different from any other firearm, in any other caliber?

I concur with the opinion that most .22s don't need to be cleaned, but include target guns in that. The reason is that they don't foul the bore much...

Dave Markowitz (and others) ~

Now I'm really confused! If the .22lr round is "really dirty," as several people claimed it is, why wouldn't it foul the barrel as much as any other cartridge?

***

The specific claim this man made was that an uncleaned .22 rifle was more accurate than one that had been cleaned. I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around that one. As long as proper care is taken at the muzzle end (and especially if a boresnake is used), wouldn't a rifle without fouling in the lands be more accurate than a rifle with fouling in the lands?

If the .22lr round is so dirty, why wouldn't it foul the lands as much as any other round? (Or even more so, since the cartridge so often utilizes a bare lead bullet?)



I'm truly not being argumentative here, guys. I'm just not making much sense out of the reasons for the answers I'm hearing.

pax

 

[Quintin Likely]

I don't clean my Marlin 60 like I would my AR or one of my bolt guns, but I do make sure that at least the action is clean. I remember a joke floating around about one firearms manufacturer who'll remain nameless than the quality of their barrels was somewhat iffy; they'd shoot great if you shot them enough to where the copper fouling and soot and stuff filled in the imperfections in the barrel.

 

[chetrogers]

I probably am the least experienced here with firearms here but I have been to 3 Nra Safety classes and I cant imagine An instructor not wanting somebody he is handling a gun too make sure it was unloaded.Its there gun I can understand if they dont want to clean it that's there business..But at a young age shouldn't they be even more careful with teaching that you need to physically look and make sure the gun is not loaded even if you look and hand it back to the instructor and he hands it rite back.Maybe I just read the thread wrong.

 

[pax]

chetrogers ~

The RO was teaching them to look but not touch the chamber when looking.

I have always taught the kids to check the chamber by both sight and feel.

While I don't think a mere visual check is sufficient (especially for kids at the ages when they are most likely to barely glance), I also want to make it really clear that the RO was requiring a visual check.

pax

 

[cracked butt]

Pax- that gunk in the barrel is for the most part, the wax used to lube the bullets. It keeps the barrel from leading up. Its good stuff to have in the barrel as it seals the metal from moisture. Every time you fire the rifle, most of the wax is melted, vaporized, scraped, or pushed out of the barrel, with the departing bullet leaving a thin coating to lube the barrel for the next round. This stuff will build up to a certain point, but won't build up to cause pressure problems. Like any other cast lead bullet, with a clean barrel, it takes a few shots to relube the barrel in order for the accuracy to settle down.

My dad gave me a remington 581 a few years ago that I've been shooting since I was a kid. Its a very accurate rifle and to my knowledge has never had its bore clean. I got overly ambitions one day and cleaned it, and it would not shoot up to snuff until I put a few fouling shots through it. I now just leave well enough alone. Ditto for my Ruger MKII.

 

[cracked butt]

have always taught the kids to check the chamber by both sight and feel.

I only learned this one a few years ago, I now have a habit of sticking my pinky into the chamber of every centerfire I pick up. Feeling the outside of the chamber of a rimfire is not a bad idea either, just carry a few wetnaps with you to clean yourself up afterwards.

 

[JohnBT]

I've been cleaning (cleaning, not scrubbing) my Marlin Mountie since 1963. Do you figure I'm going to ruin it?

The best shots I know clean their .22s. Maybe they're just lucky.

John

 

[ftierson]

I clean my .22s every time I shoot them, just like all my other firearms.

They never rust and they always work.

Works for me...

If you want to pass on cleaning yours, they're your guns...

 

[Mulliga]

I clean my .22s - action, chamber, and bore. Accuracy is fine.

 

[sm]

Good advice given.

One of the "Gunny's" I had as a mentor, instructed my .22 rimfire "education". I had a leg up on the language having had another Gunny at age Six " let me help him shoot a Gov't 1911".

Here I am at age ten and I do a sight and feel on a Win 52. This was a good thing - because 3 guys that didn't got to run up the gravel road and back a few times...

We cleaned the chambers, actions only. Never the bore.< Booming Gunny Voice> "More damage done by improper tools , methods and not paying attention, than by cleaning".

If...If we got caught out in rain - which we did, because we were expected to shoot in the rain...Gunny used a length of rawhide pulled slowly from chamber to muzzle...he used a straw as a muzzle guard for extra measure.

We 'had' to be checked out on this before we could do this by ourselves.

I was handed and MY responsibility - Win model 52.

I learned that 2 of my fellow shooters "parents were never married" , something about a female dog, and some other stuff when 2 guys used a mulit-jointed Aluminum cleaning rod on some guns. They didn't shoot much that day...did a lot of push-ups and running tho'.

Same Gunny that later bumped me up to Model 70 in '06 about a year later.

Gunny mind you - Same deal/ drill with the centerfire. Clean chamber, action, wipe off / toothbrush/ Pipe clean the bolt face [ Pipecleaner was preferred btw]. Only and only IF the accuracy started to be affected did Hoppe's No. 9 get pulled with a patch through that bore.

Schumann - I didn't know about Schumann, but I / the Gunny was doing what Schumann suggests, have subcribed to this ever since.

Gunny's for the real deal, oh yeah weapon maintained, different situation, and gives the guys something to do.

I'm proud of Jeremy btw...

 

[SMLE]

I have an Enfield #2 MkIV* .22 trainer that I clean with a boresnake after every session. I can put all my shots in a Nickel sized group at 25 yards all day long, clean or dirty. In my family, we have always cleaned the .22s just like any of the other guns and I have never noted any accuracy issues. And when I say "cleaned" I meand CLEANED! As in "USMC Drill Instructor's specifications" clean.

 

[JohnBT]

"More damage done by improper tools..."

Said by a man who would use a piece of rawhide to clean the bore. C'mon now. Get enough grit on that rawhide and you could use it strop a straight razor.

The solution is to get the proper tools. :banghead:

John

 

[jobu07]

Yeah, I clean all of my firearms, after every session. Whether I ran 10 rounds through it or 100. Dirty is dirty and clean is clean.

 

[Al Thompson]

Couple of thoughts - one, the physical chamber check is fairly new. IIRC, I first saw this being performed about 8 years ago and your NRA instructor may not agree or know about this method. Once I understood it, it's a firm part of my "bag of tricks".

To clean or not clean .22 rimfire barrels is a topic that has raged among the .22LR benchrest crowd for years. It will probably never be settled (and it gives Precision Shooting something to write about on a slow month). I remember one article about Eley Cartridge Company and it was mentioned that they never cleaned the bores of their Anschutz test barrels. The folks at Eley felt that the fouled bores shot better. IIRC, barrel life was expected to be about 150,000 rounds.

Pax, you may be able to find an article or two about the subject in that stack of PS mags I sent you.

Being in the humid south, I always drag a cleaning patch through my .22 bores after shooting with a weedwacker line. The actions get scrubbed and the exterior wiped down after shooting. I do not scrub my barrels though I do have the propper Dewey rod.

 

[sm]

Seriously - I rarely clean bores.

IIRC the Military suggests using a boot lace, oil/trannie fluid from a jeep if need to clean or oil the bore .

No I was never in the Military - I bow to those that have/ are currently serving.

I do have proper tools. I Prefer a Pro- Shot UN-coated one pc steel rod. I used to make a tool with a "coating" - much like the coated rods everyone touts - I used THOSE coated rods to make to polish/ lap the inside of things. I refuse to use a coated rod - don't give a damn what the name on it says or how expensive it may be. Because I used those "touted rods" to save me time in making one - applied my compounds and polished away.

Otis pull thru is what I use most.

Rawhide - "improper tool". I make a point of this for many reasons : 1) To make fun of folks always worrying about cleaning bores, OCD , anal retentive types. The ones That don't spend time on actions, chambers and mag maint. 2) buy every damn new "gee whiz" product to clean / lube the damn gun. 3) Can't afford to go shoot because ammo money spent on damn cleaning supplies, and gee whiz stuff...can't shoot, actions ain't working right, damn that bore is clean as a baby's butt though.

4) Sentimental - pure and simple, my boot laces were rawhide, I was shown this by a number of Gunny's, elders, mentors and a Uncle. 'Cause I know how to properly use one and I want to. I can be sentimental if I wanna.

Same reason I guess I had to stop at a Mom&Pop roadside "DQ" type place...they had Shrimp Baskets with Onion Rings...nostalgia got better when Lobo came on the radio...Kristofferson, John Prine...

I subscribe to Schumann's suggestions.

Yes there is a place for PROPER tools and Proper Cleaning Methods of a bore.

NO I do NOT break in bbls, lap them- or any other majic method or chant over them.

Handguns - Ha! I doubt most folks shoot enough high vel stuf to get copper build up. Lead - use a Lewis or ChoreBoy to "mechanicall" remove lead...not chemically.

MY 60 when new, .177 Otis pull thru the bore to remove Marlin factory lube and any maching residue . Stock was sealed , action cleaned. I then put only a smidgen of syn ATF fluid to lube. Then I have shot it. I have pipe cleaned the extraction, bolt face and chamber. IF...IF one of these days the accuracy goes bonkers, I will consider the bore.

NOT a flame or attack directed to pax or JohnBT . Just the way I see it, perceive this whole cleaning dealie.

This subject comes up often , I posted for the benefit of new folks.

pax - I consider her a good friend, I have a LOT of respect for pax, she continues to do a LOT with new shooters, raising kids, and still manages to put up with Bob and the dogs ( oops - didn't mean to toss the dog in with the hubby) My apologies to the dog...

pax is very smart on other matters...she is getting into a newer area, with a question about another instuctors ideas...

MY reply perhaps more to the new member and should have PM-ed pax myself.

Still proud of Jeremy...gonna give his mom a run for the money before long on shooting rim fire rifles...

 

[JohnBT]

"2) buy every damn new "gee whiz" product to clean / lube the damn gun."

If I didn't buy cleaning stuff, lube, ammo and beef jerky at gun shows I'd leave emytyhanded because I can't afford the high prices on the guns. Hard stainless rods are my favorite for gentle cleaning. I think we need a forum for the lube and solvent collectors among us.

"Kristofferson" - I quit buying his albums when he started acting. That was one funky movie he did with Streisand.

John

 

[R.H. Lee]

More firearms have been worn out/damaged by excessive/obsessive cleaning than by shooting. If you're not using corrosive ammo there is no reason to clean, clean, clean after each range session, especially the bore. Leave the bore alone.

 

[30Cal]

When I shot in smallbore in college, the coach kept the cleaning rod locked up. I never saw it used in the 4 years I was on the team. I probably put close to 50,000 rounds through the rifle I was issued.

Ty