Rifle for a Practical Rifle Class

[brl150]

I am taking a Practical Rifle class in October. This class is a 3 day course geared toward proficiency with a bolt action rifle. It will involve defensive/tactical shooting as well as shooting from many different field positions out to 400 yards. Total rounds for the class will be 500.

I am taking the class mainly to learn how to handle a rifle better. I am a hunter and only know that it will help in the field as well. I have been shooting for 23 years but am self taught as I didn't have a shooting mentor growing up. Now, for the fun part!! I am left handed, but right eye dominant. I am going to use the class to start shooting right handed using my dominant eye.

Okay, now that all that's out of the way...I might look to buy a new bolt action rifle for the class. Being a lefty, I always bought semi's, levers and single shots as I didn't like the models/styles/calibers available in a LH bolt. I've been told by several who have taken the class and other "gun nuts" that my lever action might not make it through the course with that much shooting at one time due to heat build up, etc.

I have been thinking of buying a RH bolt for the class. The instructor uses and recommends the Winchester M70 for it's strength and stability. He has seen other makes start to stick and tough to cycle and accuracy break down over the course of a day of rapid shooting with a bolt action. He feels the M70 is the way to go.

What are everyone's thoughts on this? I like the Winchester M70 but wouldn't mine other to look at as well.

One thing he told me when I'm looking at rifles and talking to others..."this isn't a bench rest course."

Thanks!!

 

[briansmithwins]

I'd probably try a AR with an optic. 5.56 will reach out to 400 yards easy, and left handed operation of an AR is pretty easy. You don't HAVE to pull the trigger on a semi any faster than a bolt gun after all.

As far as optics go, if the class is going to mostly be slower shots at longer range I'd look at a 4x ACOG, if it's going to be a mix of close and short range a 1-4x variable is hard to beat.

BSW

 

[brl150]

Thanks for the reply!!

I talked to the instructor about bringing an AR. I have one in 5.56 and one in .308. He said to save that for the carbine/tactical course. This course is meant to learn the operation of bolt in the field and under pressure. We'll be re-loading at night when you cannot see, rapid fire, close quarters and long range. It sounds like a lot of fun and I need the proper instruction with a bolt and hope to continue the training when I get home. I like to hunt and hope to have some carryover from the course to handle the rifle better in the field.

His scope recommendation was a 1.75 x 5 or 2 x 7 at most. We'll only be using the higher magnification to sight in. Then, it's mostly low power...even out to distance. He said...try dropping to your belly, quickly setting up and taking a shot at a basketball size at 400 yards with your scope on 7x, then 2 quick follow up shots. It's much easier on 2 or 3x.

Thanks!!

 

[briansmithwins]

If it's a bolt gun class, sounds like you need a bolt gun.

Not to be too much of a nay sayer, but why not take the semi-auto oriented course? Sounds like you already have that equipment and wouldn't have to buy a rifle for one class, in a setup that you haven't found to be comfortable before.

Seems as how you're cross dominate it'd be easier to accommodate you with one of the semi-autos or leverguns you already own.

I do agree about low power scopes being generally more useful and faster than hi mag ones. The most powerful rifle scope I own is a 6x42. BSW

 

[kludge]

I am taking a Practical Rifle class in October. This class is a 3 day course geared toward proficiency with a bolt action rifle. It will involve defensive/tactical shooting as well as shooting from many different field positions out to 400 yards. Total rounds for the class will be 500.

Holy crap that's a lot of $$$, I mean rounds -- I might be lookin for a CZ in 7.62x39. Or an "old" Ruger 77, just so i didn't go broke feeding it. I would have said .22LR - due to cost and shoulder pounding over thee days, but centerfire??? And .22LR ain't gonna go no 400 yards. Heck, I shoot 20 - 30 rounds through my HEAVY barrel .308 with an added pound of steel in the stock from prone or off a bench and I'm DONE for a couple weeks (yes I bruise after ~20 rounds of .308). The other low cost/low shoulder pounding option would be a .223 (if it's not a tight chambered rifle and you can shoot cheap "surplus" ammo through it).

I am taking the class mainly to learn how to handle a rifle better. I am a hunter and only know that it will help in the field as well. I have been shooting for 23 years but am self taught as I didn't have a shooting mentor growing up. Now, for the fun part!! I am left handed, but right eye dominant. I am going to use the class to start shooting right handed using my dominant eye.

Well knowing that you're a hunter, I would choose a chambering that you would like to hunt with. And a bolt action .22LR for the short range (0 to 100 yards) "proficiency" type stuff.

I'm afraid that the only thing I would learn in 3 days and 500 rounds with a centrfire rifle is how to flinch.

Remington, Savage, Winchester, Browning all make decent stuff. buy the one that fits you best. Remember you may want to try stock fit while wearing your hunting coat.
[/QUOTE]

 

[jayjaypunisher]

whats your price range on the rifle/optics? that really will help us internet weirdos throw out some good starts

 

[Abel]

whats your price range on the rifle/optics? that really will help us internet weirdos throw out some good starts

That's what I want to know. You could buy a Tikka T3 Lite and mount a Bushnell Elite 3200 2-7x32mm and not be $pinched$ too hard. I'd get it in 270 or 7mm-08 if you plan to use said rifle on deer later on. And don't use those Tikka mounts that come with the rifle. Get some good/better mounts like Warne or Talley.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Those kinds of courses tend to be geared towards a magazine fed bolt action. Some kind of Rem 700 with a mag modification would be least costly.

You could do it with top fed I suppose, but it would be slow and cumbersome.

Honestly it sounds like you may be enrolled in the wrong kind of class for what you want to achieve. 500 rounds rifle in 3 days is a tactical rifle class, not a static shooting class. That kind of training will expect you to be somewhat proficient already with the rifle and be equipped to carry the rifle on the move as well I would guess.

 

[Offfhand]

Be sure to check out qualifications of "teachers" in such courses. Being "ex-military" is not necessairly a qualification and often isn't. Ask what competitions they have won in F-Class and NRA type high power (Camp Perry type)shooting. Good instructors don't need to be winners to be good teachers, but it's a place to start. Some "instructors" in these training programs are frequently little than WalMart gun dept counter lizards on an ego trip. When they show up in camo-tees you can figure you've been had, avoid this by asking for references with phone numbers in advance and calling at least three of them.

 

[d2wing]

You do realize that guy should be on meds. Hmmm, long range, defensive rapid fire at night with a bolt action. I would think he's want a WWI rifle for that. 303 Enfield. Savage and Remington 700's are popular choices in bolt actions for competition. A jeweled bolt would be a help to prevent galling.
My 700 has it, but I'm not taking that course. I've been in a real war.
The rifles designed for that type of shooting would be the AR15 or M1 Garand, or M14. My favorite would be an M60. It sounds like fun and good practice for a mall ninja war.

 

[pdd614]

you need a rifle something like this. its a 6.5x47 lapua that takes 10 and 5 round mags. if you don't reload then I would go with a 308 or 6.5 creedmoor, because they are considerably cheaper to buy loaded ammo for.

almost more important than the rifle will be the scope. it needs to have correct features for field shooting. the reticle should be in first focal plane and have hash marks in mils or moa. and the adjustment knobs should match the reticle. it's really that simple, any other type system will only leave you frustrated.

 

[Hatterasguy]

Lee Enfield, K98, K31, 1903, Mosin take your pick.


All the military rifles won wars so a little 3 day class shouldn't be much of an issue.

 

[briansmithwins]

you need a rifle something like this. its a 6.5x47 lapua

You got 500 rounds of 6.5 laying around?

I've got that much in 7.62x39 and 75gr .223, but even guys that reload might not have 500 brass that they would trust for a class. BSW

 

[pdd614]

i would put my little lapua up against any of these old milsurps. so what if its not a crf. I can put alot more rounds downrange accurately with my x47. I have a k31 and its a great rifle, but for unknown distance field type shooting it will not get the hits.

I have lots of 6.5 ready to go. I buy everything in bulk including all my reloading components. the x47 is actually really cheap to shoot once you get the brass paid for.

 

[Zak Smith]

500 rounds sounds about right for a one day intro to tactical carbine course, so for 3 days we'd be at a third of that round count rate. Shooting to 400 yards is not very far. The strength of a bolt gun in martial purposes is to put rounds into smallish medium and long range targets on the first or second try. The military has moved to the SR-25 for short/medium range .308 engagements for speed. With that in mind, this sounds like a class with most application to hunting given the shot distances listed and the type of scopes recommended. To the extent that it doesn't, I question how well thought out the class concept is.

Given the problem of making rapid hits on anything within 400 yards, I would take any of my AR-15's that are set up for 3Gun/practical shooting over a bolt gun.

Anyway, here are my two recommendations:

1. Since you're a hunter, use a rifle you already have that's more or less set up for short/mid-range hunting. Pick one you don't mind abusing its barrel and that you can find relatively cheap ammunition. If I had to do this, I'd probably grab a .30-06 or .308 that I didn't mind abusing and use some "surplus" ammunition (the CMP .30-06 ammunition or other imported, cheap .30-06 or .308 ammunition).

2. Buy a rifle simply for this class with cheap ammo in mind. You could get a bolt gun in .223 and shoot cheap ammo through it.

 

[pdd614]

i guess i am just more confident in my bolt gun than ar15. it's set up very similar to my bolt gun as far as optics and build quality goes but I am very confident behind my x47.

guess I need to enter more 3gun type shooting to get comfortable with the ar15.

 

[dakotasin]

class sounds like a lot of fun - got a link to it?

look for a solid, dependable rifle. i would use a 700, 77, or a 70, and that's about it. i would also want it chambered light as possible. a remington 700 lvsf in 221 fireball would be great if you could find it. i would avoid any chambering heavier than 243 win, and would look to keep rifle weight close to 9 pounds.

out to 400 yards the drops of various centerfire cartridges isn't so different that you couldn't quickly learn how to compensate for them. basketball-sized targets will keep it fun and easy.

be aware that whatever rifle you take may be in dire need of a new barrel when you get done.

 

[Zak Smith]

500 rounds in 3 days should represent 10% or less of the overall life of a good .308 barrel. 500 rounds in 3 days might represent 25-33% of the overall life of a good .243 barrel. Both of these examples assume you care somewhat about the accuracy, since if you're satisfied with 1.5-2 MOA, then a barrel might last essentially forever.

Incidentally, here is a match where we shoot roughly basketball size targets out to 425 (and smaller at closer distances)





There used to be a bolt gun class but people lost interest in it

 

[blitzen]

For what it sounds like you are doing, maybe bolt action .308 scout rifle setup is what you need. With the scope forward you would be able to top load fairly easy. I know someone makes this set up and not at a crazy price either. Someone will help out if they bother to read what you are sighned up for. I think some people missed the part about bolt gun class, and that you are taking it in Oct. .308 also has plenty of cross over uses.
Check out a Savage model 10 FCM Scout. I'm sure there are others.

 

[Al LaVodka]

I'm thinkin' an indestructible Ruger All Weather 77/22 in 22 Mag. A fine little survival rifle. OK, if ya sight it in at 100 yards it'll drop 9 inches at 150. Maybe an All Weather 77 in .223 instead. If you sight THIS in at 100 yards a 62 grain round will only drop 3 inches at 200 yards -- lol.
Al

 

[oldrevolverguy]

A tactical/mid weight (18" to 22" barrel) rifle in 308 with a Leupold VXII 2 X 7 would be just the ticket. Spend a few extra dollars on really good scope mounts. With any luck you can find some relatively inexpensive FMJ ammo that the rifle shoots well and you are good to go. The same rig in 223 would be easy on your shoulder and pocket book. It sounds like a fun class, enjoy!

 

[Oceans]

Rem 700, 260 Remington, wood stock, 1-4x power scope, detatch mounts. Leave original rifle sights on barrel if so equipped. 48 oz trigger, use one inch military rifle sling if you know how, if not, get someone to teach you. Buy quality ammo. I would recommend .223 but 500 yard shots with the old 1-12 twist might be pushing the envelope, but the .260 Rem is a good candidate cartridge for that range. If the new 700s have the 1-9 or faster twist, go with the .223 and 69 grain bullets.

 

[Winston_Smith]

Zak, are those all JP uppers?

 

[Bix]

BRL -

The class you're describing sounds an awful lot like Randy Cain's Practical Rifle class:

http://www.guntactics.com/Rifle.htm

I've not taken the course, but it's very high on my list. The other training I've had with Randy has been excellent, and this is supposed to be one of his best classes.

Here's a detailed, fairly recent review of the class that has some equipment comments that you may find useful:

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=253032

http://forum.1911forum.com/showthread.php?p=2438672

The Triad Tactical guys in Michigan host (or, at least hosted) Randy a lot and have some very useful comments on equipment selection on their webpage:

http://www.triad-tactical.com/equipment.htm

Even if the class you're contemplating isn't Cain's, I expect the above links will be of some value - assuming it's along the line of the Practical Rifle / Gunsite 270, etc. curriculum.

 

[d2wing]

After reading the review it doesn't sound as weird as I imagined. If it's that course, it sounds reasonable and well informed. I don't agree with a bolt action in a gunfight but he makes a good point. If I had to do it, I would go for a rifle in the 8-9 lb range in .223. 30-06 or.308 is great, effective and accurate but .223 is useful to those ranges, accurate and much less punishing for that many rounds. That course can't hurt. Well on second though, I hope you're in shape.