Jake
Member
Take the advice on the PT training. You may be able to shoot the wings off a fly at 600 yards and be they greatest military mind since Napoleon but if you suck at Pt in the Army you will be in for all kinds of crap.
Rifle practice for the Army?
- Thread starter Phantom Warrior
- Start date
- Status
ScorpioVI
Member
I don't know how it is in Mechanized Infantry, since all my duty was with Light Infantry or Armor. But in Light Infantry divisions (10th Mountain, 101st Airborne, 25th Infantry, 82nd Airborne, etc.) the HHC (Headquarters and Headquarters Company) in Infantry Battalions have a bunch of specialized platoons (medics, commo, supply, mortars, etc.) One of these specialized platoons are the Scouts, responsible for recon for the entire battalion. Supposedly the "cream of the crop" of 11Bs, they pull soldiers (who have distinguished themselves through PT and marksmanship) from line companies and stick them in this platoon where they function on a scout/sniper/observer role. A platoon-ful of snipers, if you will.
People who go to Sniper school (or Ranger/Airborne/Air Assault/etc.) typically come from the Scout platoon since they get dibs on all those schools. NOBODY, repeat, NOBODY, goes to Sniper school after Basic & AIT. Well, I went to Sniper school while in Basic but only to fill sandbags and clean up the range for them (cushy detail). Airborne is likely, and I had a few guys in my basic platoon go to Airborne school afterwards. I only know of one guy who went straight to Ranger school and only because he was a PT stud (scored 300+ in every test).
So that's what you shoot for if you become an 11B. Get to a regular unit, show that you're a hard-charger and hopefully make it into your battalion's Scout platoon or maybe the brigade's LRS-D unit.
Being a mortarman (11C) had it's perks but I would have much rather preferred being just a plain old leg 11B. Just hope you didn't score high enough in your GT to qualify as 11C.
JamisJockey
member
My point is carpe diem. If you wait to become an Officer, I think you're making a big mistake. Although Officers that rise from the Enlisted ranks usually have a little better perspective on how Enlisted pukes should be treated, speaking from a career sense you're wasting time being Enlisted first.
You can still become alot of those things (Ranger, etc) as an Officer....And you'll be a leader of men instead of a follower.
Just my opinion.
If you want to learn the army way prior to getting there to help give you a head start, get an army marksmanship manual and teach yourself.
Having an AR would be even more useful after you are in though. On average, we only really shot during qualification. I don't know about infantry, but that is how it was for 12B's.
Having your own AR might allow you to get in extra practice with a very similar rifle. It would depend on where you get stationed as to whether or not it is feasible, but it might be workable.
Also, start on PT now. If you aren't in shape, get in shape.
Having an AR would be even more useful after you are in though. On average, we only really shot during qualification. I don't know about infantry, but that is how it was for 12B's.
Having your own AR might allow you to get in extra practice with a very similar rifle. It would depend on where you get stationed as to whether or not it is feasible, but it might be workable.
Also, start on PT now. If you aren't in shape, get in shape.
Phantom Warrior
Member
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2003
- Messages
- 1,073
Well, fortunately or unfortunately, I scored high enough to do anything in the Army. So if the Army says I'm an 11C, I guess I'm an 11C. But I'll do my best to look mortar challenged.
Thanks for all the first hand advice on infantry stuff. That's exactly what I need to hear.Atc1man, I see your point. And it is a valid one, careerwise. But the Army is not something I plan to make a career of. I'd like to stay on in the Reserves, but I don't see myself doing active much past 6-8 years tops. And I'm sufficently credentialified to get a job out of the Army, so the money issue isn't a big one. I would like to experience some of the enlisted stuff and maybe see if I can get promoted to E-5 or E-6 before OCS. Bottom line, it's not a huge deal to me. But thanks for your input.
So, do ya guys think I should do some PT before basic?
I have a few questions for you Phantom.
First of all, let me say that I recently(3 weeks ago) went through Army Advanced Marksmanship Course. I am now certified to teach the course. I am a PFC and a Radio Operator in the Army.
I went through this course with two infantry guys who were about to go to Sniper school at Ft. Benning. So you CAN go to sniper school after you get out of basic. It depends on several things. Like how many slots your unit has to send people to sniper school, and your qualification to go. The only thing you must have to go to sniper school is expert marksman qualification. That's 36/40 targets hit during qualification.
My questions to you are these:
How old are you?
How long have you been shooting?
My reccommendations are this. If you have been shooting rifles for a while, I can't possibly see how familiarizing yourself with the ar-15 would hurt. Any "bad habits" you've alredy formed are going to stay with you no matter what platform you've been shooting from. Also, it is mu understantding that infantry basic is now using M-16A4s, so if you do get yourself an AR, get a 20in barrel with removable carry handle and standard buttstock.
Additionally, if you have been shooting rifles in the past, I have the entie classroom portion of the AMU Advanced Marksmanship Course in power point presentations, and would be happy to send it to you via email. It's about 5 megs for 7 sections of instruction. It basically takes the most important stuff for precision shooting from the Army Marksmanship Manual.
Additionally, if you have AIM or ICQ, I would be happy to awnser any questions you may have about army marksmanship. Send me a PM with your user name, and ill send you a PM with mine.
Hope this information helped, and I'll check back on this thread to awnser any more questions you may have.
Oh, one last thing. Here's a link to a post I made about the Advanced Marksmanship School:
http://sigforum.com/eve/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=674608412&f=9666031561&m=30710407
First of all, let me say that I recently(3 weeks ago) went through Army Advanced Marksmanship Course. I am now certified to teach the course. I am a PFC and a Radio Operator in the Army.
I went through this course with two infantry guys who were about to go to Sniper school at Ft. Benning. So you CAN go to sniper school after you get out of basic. It depends on several things. Like how many slots your unit has to send people to sniper school, and your qualification to go. The only thing you must have to go to sniper school is expert marksman qualification. That's 36/40 targets hit during qualification.
My questions to you are these:
How old are you?
How long have you been shooting?
My reccommendations are this. If you have been shooting rifles for a while, I can't possibly see how familiarizing yourself with the ar-15 would hurt. Any "bad habits" you've alredy formed are going to stay with you no matter what platform you've been shooting from. Also, it is mu understantding that infantry basic is now using M-16A4s, so if you do get yourself an AR, get a 20in barrel with removable carry handle and standard buttstock.
Additionally, if you have been shooting rifles in the past, I have the entie classroom portion of the AMU Advanced Marksmanship Course in power point presentations, and would be happy to send it to you via email. It's about 5 megs for 7 sections of instruction. It basically takes the most important stuff for precision shooting from the Army Marksmanship Manual.
Additionally, if you have AIM or ICQ, I would be happy to awnser any questions you may have about army marksmanship. Send me a PM with your user name, and ill send you a PM with mine.
Hope this information helped, and I'll check back on this thread to awnser any more questions you may have.
Oh, one last thing. Here's a link to a post I made about the Advanced Marksmanship School:
http://sigforum.com/eve/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=674608412&f=9666031561&m=30710407
That's exactly what I'm doing right now. Doing 3 years active duty(I already have several years in the guard), then I'm going to get out and go to college. Wether I'm going to become an officer has yet to be decided.
As for PT before basic, you have to run 1 mile in 8:30, and do something like 35 push ups and 40 sit ups, otherwise you are put in "Fat Company". This is a company that you go to before you're allowed into basic to get you up to the minimum. And trust me, by the end of Infantry Basic training, you'll be in shape.
Oh, and the requirements may be higher for Infantry. I only know what the requirements at Ft. Leonard Wood are. Not Ft. Benning.
Basically... Wether you're in shape or not when you start basic, you'll sure as hell be in shape when you're done with basic!
Phantom Warrior
Member
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2003
- Messages
- 1,073
Dorian, check your PM.
Langenator
Member
Sniper sections-what exactly these look, and how many in a given unit size, like depends in a big way on what kind of unit you're in. It varies even among different types of infantry.
When I was in Germany (1st Battalion, 6th Infantry-Mechanizeed) in the late 90s, my company had an M24 sniper rifle. However, we weren't authorized specific personnel slots on the org chart for a sniper. We had one SSG who had been sto sniper school, and if we needed a sniper for a mission, he did the job. But most of the time we didn't have a sniper team per se. There were no snipers in the battalion Scout platoon (scouts in tank and mech units are 19D-Cav Scouts-in any case)
The last unit I was in before I came to Ft Jackson was 3rd Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division-also known as the Stryker Brigade. Stryker Infantry battalions are awash in snipers. Each company has a two-man sniper team, and there is also a 6 man sniper section that works for the battalion commander. They're totally separate from the Scout platoon, although they sometimes work/train together, and they do recruit guys from there.
Actually, on training missions at least, the snipers tend to spend most of their time doing recon-further forward than the scouts-and not nearly as much time shooting 'BGs'. But I hear sniper business is good in Iraq and A-stan.
I can't speak to Light/Airborne/Air Assault, because I've never been there.
If you want pretty much guaranteed chances to go to Airborne and Ranger schools, become an Infantry officer. Every brand new (active duty) Infantry LT gets the chance to go to both right after the officer basic course. Personally, I've been to Ranger School 3 times so far-flunked out once, got hurt the last two times. And I'll go again if they let me.
When I was in Germany (1st Battalion, 6th Infantry-Mechanizeed) in the late 90s, my company had an M24 sniper rifle. However, we weren't authorized specific personnel slots on the org chart for a sniper. We had one SSG who had been sto sniper school, and if we needed a sniper for a mission, he did the job. But most of the time we didn't have a sniper team per se. There were no snipers in the battalion Scout platoon (scouts in tank and mech units are 19D-Cav Scouts-in any case)
The last unit I was in before I came to Ft Jackson was 3rd Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division-also known as the Stryker Brigade. Stryker Infantry battalions are awash in snipers. Each company has a two-man sniper team, and there is also a 6 man sniper section that works for the battalion commander. They're totally separate from the Scout platoon, although they sometimes work/train together, and they do recruit guys from there.
Actually, on training missions at least, the snipers tend to spend most of their time doing recon-further forward than the scouts-and not nearly as much time shooting 'BGs'. But I hear sniper business is good in Iraq and A-stan.
I can't speak to Light/Airborne/Air Assault, because I've never been there.
If you want pretty much guaranteed chances to go to Airborne and Ranger schools, become an Infantry officer. Every brand new (active duty) Infantry LT gets the chance to go to both right after the officer basic course. Personally, I've been to Ranger School 3 times so far-flunked out once, got hurt the last two times. And I'll go again if they let me.
ID_shooting
Member
"I couldn't get any training written into my contract because of my vision"
Anyone find an answer to this yet. All of this maybe a moot point if he doesn't qualify because of his sight. IIRC, had to be 20/20.
Anyone find an answer to this yet. All of this maybe a moot point if he doesn't qualify because of his sight. IIRC, had to be 20/20.
OEF_VET
Member
Not only are they offered the chance to go, they are 'highly encouraged' to go. It's not exactly a requirement for promotion, but it's definitly a step in the right direction to success. Being Airborne and Ranger qualified makes an Infantry officer a lot better looking to promotion boards and to those who choose their assignments, in fact, there are a lot of assignments which can only be filled by ABN/RGR qualified officers.
Physical conditioning, and get your head screwed on good, Mister. Foster teamwork among your peers. Get all the schools you can and use that training to better yourself and your unit. Be there when you're needed. Field craft. Leadership skills. Listen to the ones that have been there. One other thing on the reality of being a sniper - they kill people. Do it right, and your passage will be a life altering experience. sundog (US Army, retired)
1. Have you considered the Marines?
2. I second, third, fourth, or whatever, the recommendation to concentrate more on physical training than learning about the M-16.
3. Memorize the general orders before you go to basic. You can (and will) be asked to recite any order at any time.
[BLOCKQUOTE]
General Order 1
To take charge of this post and all government property in view.
General Order 2
To walk my post in a military manner, keeping always on the alert and observing everything that takes place within sight or hearing.
General Order 3
To report all violations of orders I am instructed to enforce.
General Order 4
To repeat all calls from posts more distant from the guardhouse than my own.
General Order 5
To quit my post only when properly relieved.
General Order 6
To receive, obey and pass on to the sentry who relieves me all orders from the commanding officer, officer of the day, and officers and noncommissioned officers of the guard only.
General Order 7
To talk to no one except in the line of duty.
General Order 8
To give the alarm in case of fire or disorder.
General Order 9
To call the seargent of the guard in any case not covered by instructions.
General Order 10
To salute all officers and all colors and standards not cased.
General Order 11
To be especially watchful at night, and during the time for challenging, to challenge all persons on or near my post and to allow no one to pass without proper authority.
[/BLOCKQUOTE]
4. Get a copy of the Enlisted Soldier's Guide. Learn the rank system, how to wear the uniform, etc.
Granted, this advice is not as tacti-cool as learning how to shoot an AR-15. But it will help you be way ahead of the curve when you get to boot camp.
2. I second, third, fourth, or whatever, the recommendation to concentrate more on physical training than learning about the M-16.
3. Memorize the general orders before you go to basic. You can (and will) be asked to recite any order at any time.
[BLOCKQUOTE]
General Order 1
To take charge of this post and all government property in view.
General Order 2
To walk my post in a military manner, keeping always on the alert and observing everything that takes place within sight or hearing.
General Order 3
To report all violations of orders I am instructed to enforce.
General Order 4
To repeat all calls from posts more distant from the guardhouse than my own.
General Order 5
To quit my post only when properly relieved.
General Order 6
To receive, obey and pass on to the sentry who relieves me all orders from the commanding officer, officer of the day, and officers and noncommissioned officers of the guard only.
General Order 7
To talk to no one except in the line of duty.
General Order 8
To give the alarm in case of fire or disorder.
General Order 9
To call the seargent of the guard in any case not covered by instructions.
General Order 10
To salute all officers and all colors and standards not cased.
General Order 11
To be especially watchful at night, and during the time for challenging, to challenge all persons on or near my post and to allow no one to pass without proper authority.
[/BLOCKQUOTE]
4. Get a copy of the Enlisted Soldier's Guide. Learn the rank system, how to wear the uniform, etc.
Granted, this advice is not as tacti-cool as learning how to shoot an AR-15. But it will help you be way ahead of the curve when you get to boot camp.
Phantom Warrior
Member
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2003
- Messages
- 1,073
Oh no, I'm studying that stuff too. Believe me. I've got a a shiny packet w/ all the info on rank, general orders, and stuff. I used to read the encyclopedia article on the Army when I was little, so I have a lot of stuff in my head already (ask me to recite the rank structure
). I just asked about rifle practice because someone suggested that in another thread and I wasn't sure if it was a good idea or not.Regarding the Marines, I think it actually would be awesome to be a Marine. That was one of my first choices. But I looked at it and decided on the Army instead. In my humble opinion, being Army infantry is no job for a wussy either. If I'm super duper tough I'll try for Ranger school or Special Forces. I'm not, but my point is that I don't think the Marines have a monopoly on toughness and discipline. And there were some other considerations. I got a nice little bonus from the Army (and some other financial stuff). More importantly, I'd like to stay on as a Reservist and I think it will be easier to stay active in the Army Reserves than in the Marine Corps Reserves.
So yes, I have considered the Marines, but decided against it ultimately. Thank you for the advice though. It's good advice for any branch.
Website for Sniper School. Click on this site, then FY04 or FY05 for course curriculum. www.infantry.army.mil/29thInf/courses/sniper/index.htm
The Army will soon begin T&E competition for their new semi-auto 7.62 sniper rifle.
Sand Hill '81.....ROK-DMZ '83..... 11C and Sniper.
The Army will soon begin T&E competition for their new semi-auto 7.62 sniper rifle.
Sand Hill '81.....ROK-DMZ '83..... 11C and Sniper.
fistful
member
Phantom, my son,
I wish you'd tell us about your prior gun experience.
If you are not already a good marksman, save your money, and buy a good, semi-auto .22, like the Ruger 10/22 and find competent instruction. I guess NRA programs vary, but the Basic Pistol course I took was very instructive, and cheap, so you might find a good Basic Rifle course in your area. The Army supposedly trained me to shoot at Sand Hill (infantry OSUT), but it would have been hard to tell. I never really started to learn until I got my own rifle. I still don't know how the rear sight elevation works on the 16. Some people learn to shoot well in Basic, some don't. I wouldn't take the chance, if I were you.
If you're already a good shot, then buy any old kind of AR you want. If I had one of those stupid things, I'd sell it you cheap. If I wasn't flat broke, I'd give it to you. I would think an AR with a real stock would be easier to shoot, but some people feel otherwise. Of course, adding a lot of bells and whistles, like a bipod or a front pistol grip, might throw you off a bit. Just practice with standard sights, cause that's what you'll qualify with. Practice from the bench and from the prone. I'd imagine a semi-auto AR would have a better trigger, so you'll have to adjust to the varying trigger pull of the select-fire version.
Definitely find out what it takes to max the PT test for your age group, and do the best you can to beat the requirements. I've never done more than 43 consecutive push-ups in my life, but if you want to be high speed, you need to aim for the maximum as if it was the minimum.
God bless ya,
Fistful
I wish you'd tell us about your prior gun experience.
If you are not already a good marksman, save your money, and buy a good, semi-auto .22, like the Ruger 10/22 and find competent instruction. I guess NRA programs vary, but the Basic Pistol course I took was very instructive, and cheap, so you might find a good Basic Rifle course in your area. The Army supposedly trained me to shoot at Sand Hill (infantry OSUT), but it would have been hard to tell. I never really started to learn until I got my own rifle. I still don't know how the rear sight elevation works on the 16. Some people learn to shoot well in Basic, some don't. I wouldn't take the chance, if I were you.
If you're already a good shot, then buy any old kind of AR you want. If I had one of those stupid things, I'd sell it you cheap. If I wasn't flat broke, I'd give it to you. I would think an AR with a real stock would be easier to shoot, but some people feel otherwise. Of course, adding a lot of bells and whistles, like a bipod or a front pistol grip, might throw you off a bit. Just practice with standard sights, cause that's what you'll qualify with. Practice from the bench and from the prone. I'd imagine a semi-auto AR would have a better trigger, so you'll have to adjust to the varying trigger pull of the select-fire version.
Definitely find out what it takes to max the PT test for your age group, and do the best you can to beat the requirements. I've never done more than 43 consecutive push-ups in my life, but if you want to be high speed, you need to aim for the maximum as if it was the minimum.
God bless ya,
Fistful
So what would it take to max Marine PT?
What is longest running distance you get timed on?
***
That was funny, I haven't laughed that hard in weeks. Shooting slings (vs carry straps) used to be part of basic training back when marksmanship mattered. And modern HRT and such all seem to use carry straps.
I would have gifted the DI with my copy of "A Rifleman Went to War" by McBride. And shown him how to make a loop with carry strap. Some of the riflemen that McBride mentions made loops out of their carry straps by hooking both ends to front sling mount, only good for shooting that way not for carrying, to use in the trench warfare of WWI.
The CW Sling was based on this concept AFAIK, and the Ching Sling is just an improvement on the CW.
But in the military you have to do it their way especially when it isn't the best way. At least when they are watching
http://yarchive.net/gun/courses/gunsite_rifle1.html
What is longest running distance you get timed on?
***
That was funny, I haven't laughed that hard in weeks. Shooting slings (vs carry straps) used to be part of basic training back when marksmanship mattered. And modern HRT and such all seem to use carry straps.
I would have gifted the DI with my copy of "A Rifleman Went to War" by McBride. And shown him how to make a loop with carry strap. Some of the riflemen that McBride mentions made loops out of their carry straps by hooking both ends to front sling mount, only good for shooting that way not for carrying, to use in the trench warfare of WWI.
The CW Sling was based on this concept AFAIK, and the Ching Sling is just an improvement on the CW.
But in the military you have to do it their way especially when it isn't the best way. At least when they are watching
http://yarchive.net/gun/courses/gunsite_rifle1.html
Phantom Warrior
Member
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2003
- Messages
- 1,073
I'm not sure. Like I said, I decided Army instead. In the Army 100% for 22-26 year old males is 75 pushups, 80 situps, and 2 miles in 13 minutes flat. I'm long and skinny, so the only thing I'm worried about is pushups. The other two I could _probably_ do today.
I'm just a humble DEPer (not even Regular Army yet), but I'm extremely skeptical of anyone who says they'd attempt show their drill sergeant something DURING basic.
But hey, it's your head, not mine.
Thumper
Member
Remember, PW, that "Glamdring" (snicker) is the same guy that called those who serve stupid in a thread awhile back.
Keep that in mind when reading his advice.
Yeah, he'd be out there teaching his Drill Sergeant to shoot.
Keep that in mind when reading his advice.
Yeah, he'd be out there teaching his Drill Sergeant to shoot.
Thumper: You are incorrect sir. I was stating in idiom that most new recruits are young and male and full of testosterone which in most ways equals young and full of foolish behavior. I was quoting the saying that goes "young and dumb and full of XXX" but leaving off the part that would offend Art's Grandma. I thought everone would get that part and share a few stories from that time period in their life.
A moderator requested that I not post to that thread anymore, and didn't respond to my email of clarification so I have not posted any more on that thread.
I believe I understand more than most here about the structure of military training. Google Operant Conditioning, Classical Conditioning, Aversive Response, Conditioned Response and follow a few of the related links.
Then review in your mind what basic was really like. How you are required to do every little thing, such as storing toothbrush and toothpaste, in a specific way. The reason for that isn't to get you to keep your toothbrush just so, it is to teach you to do what they tell you to do (ie Shoot and Salute).
One key to military organization is getting a group to act together, 10 people working as a single unit can defeat several times their number. The incident in Mog is a well known fairly clear example of such. Were organized units held out against large numbers of unorganized opponents.
A moderator requested that I not post to that thread anymore, and didn't respond to my email of clarification so I have not posted any more on that thread.
I believe I understand more than most here about the structure of military training. Google Operant Conditioning, Classical Conditioning, Aversive Response, Conditioned Response and follow a few of the related links.
Then review in your mind what basic was really like. How you are required to do every little thing, such as storing toothbrush and toothpaste, in a specific way. The reason for that isn't to get you to keep your toothbrush just so, it is to teach you to do what they tell you to do (ie Shoot and Salute).
One key to military organization is getting a group to act together, 10 people working as a single unit can defeat several times their number. The incident in Mog is a well known fairly clear example of such. Were organized units held out against large numbers of unorganized opponents.
Phantom Warrior
Member
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2003
- Messages
- 1,073
Glamdring, I'd like to believe you, but quotes like the above from the other thread make it hard. Saying that being a soldier results from being young and dumb (or conditioned when you were) is HARDLY the same thing as saying "Yeah, we were all young and dumb and did stupid stuff one time too." Either you are talking out of both sides of your mouth or you have a real talent for picking a poor choice of words. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, it might be wise to think carefully about how you say things from now on.
P.S. The continuing attempt to link training w/ brainwashing is really hurting your cause. It is in the very loosest sense, they both attempt to achieve a desired behavior. But you aren't claiming training someone to flip burgers at McDs or repair cars at an auto shop is brainwashing either, just the Army. So that tack sounds even less plausible.
P.P.S. Where did you gain your knowledge of military procedures? Some detail on that issue could help things out.
Okay. Would you agree that the most important thing for an Army (military) is discipline?
If you agree to that point I can explain what I mean in a way anyone can understand (not saying agree but understand).
If discipline isn't most important thing what would be?
If you agree to that point I can explain what I mean in a way anyone can understand (not saying agree but understand).
If discipline isn't most important thing what would be?
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
