Rifles for HD use and "overpenetration"

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Tirod

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There's a lot of interest in using a rifle for home defense, and many choose to do so. In the discussion, many consider the ability to penetrate multiple walls as a negative factor in choosing one. Their concern is striking innocent individuals with rounds from their weapon.

Two aspects of use are being left out of the discussion. First, the intruder doesn't care about it - and will use that ability against you. If you are sheltering behind furniture, a doorway, etc., they can and will shoot where you might be, and if they get a hit, they win. If your family is huddled behind you, their shots may go thru whatever they are hiding behind and still hit them.

Whether or not your firearm can or cannot penetrate walls and doors means nothing when the intruders certainly can.

Second, it's assumed that the conflict will have a 360 degree sphere of potential fire - and that endangers neighboring innocents. The reality is that your lanes of fire will likely be controlled by the location of doorways, walls, and hallways, in a limited alley of fire that's two way.

If the intruder is covering behind the corner of the hallway in the front part of the dwelling, why would anyone be shooting up or down thru ceilings/floors, or sideways out thru the walls or windows? The lane of fire in most instances is pretty direct, often line of sight, and in opposition.

The intruders bullets are just as likely to hit your neighbors as your's are. And to prevent or reduce that mishap, it's really incumbent on the homeowner to PLAN where you will shoot - to prevent hitting your neighbors in the likely higher risk occupational zones, and to prevent the intruder shooting at them, too.

It is, like it or not, a two way shooting range. Are you considering that your best place to shelter is conducive to your neighbor's safety? Or are you using their children's bedroom as your backstop behind you?

Whether it's directly behind the wall, or 50 feet away across the yard behind a hedge, is little matter.

I'm of the mind - due to training in the military - that stopping the threat as rapidly as possible is the better course of action, and that means using full power ammunition with well planned lanes of fire that consider the backstops. It reduces the amount of bullets traversing the building to the minimum - which is the goal in minimizing unwanted off site casualties.

The alternative being offered by the reduced penetration ammo argument just means you are deliberately choosing to use less powerful rounds that cannot adequately penetrate, whether it's your walls, or the cover the intruder is hiding behind. It's a deliberate choice to have less effective ammo, precisely when you need to have superior firepower to stop the intruder.

Are we suggesting that we should be using low powered underperforming ammo for self defense? In that regard, it's exactly the opposite of what is considered for CCW use. Nobody is much concerned about low penetration on the street, or in an office building, or at the mall. And those are more likely encounters than in your home.

We aren't the Police, who are forced by liability and the role of being a public servant who must recognize rights. We are homeowners exercising control over our domain. Frankly, as dumb as the VP was about shooting thru the door, if you have identified the people knocking down your door and they have been warned, it's a defense. Waiting for them to enter is endangering your family and increasing your risk. It's a poor time to realize your bullets can't go thru the door - but their's can.

Since nobody actually makes ammo that can be guaranteed to stop just before hitting an innocent person, better you study exactly when and where you can shoot in defense of your family in your home, and do the better job of protecting your neighbors.
 
"...study exactly when and where you can shoot in defense of your family in your home..."

I've mentioned this before as part of one's tactics when envisioning some defensive scenario.

Realize that quick motion in low light is more noticeable than when one "oozes" along. Crouch or crawl means shots are upward, and the "downrange" trajectory is above non-combatants.

Add a bunch of other ideas before worrying about fragmentation or over-penetration.
 
Tirod,Thanks for your military service. I am an old grunt from Nam 68. I live in a neigborhood and refrain from using high power weapons.I think my furtherest shout in the house would be about 7 yards from any point in the house. I decided on a Ruger 10/22.I have the Ruger 25 round magazines as this is quick firing,I think I can get 5 off quickly assuming someone else may be with an intruder. I use CCI Mini Mags solids. The 22 LR will do far more damage than people realize.I feel protected and that there will not be over penetration.
 
There are certainly benefits to using a good hollow point bullet and a rifle for home defense. And, one never knows the exact circumstances of a defensive situation. Shooting an armed and dangerous intruder through his cover is a likely situation and should be considered. Heck, who doesn't want to get to cover in a gun battle. It seems logical that this same philosophy should apply to handgun selection as well.
 
One other thing I think about is how hard it would be to maneuver a long gun through my house (even with a folding stock) I never feel out gunned with my Glock 19 full of 147 HST +P with a Mossberg 12G next to the bed.

I have a 130lb American Bulldog that sleeps in the living room. I don't want to just start spraying lead all over the place. Shot placement is more important to me than volume.

If I ever need my AR or AK for home defense, I'll know that SHTF and at that point all bets are off. Just my 0.02
 
Tirod said:
The alternative being offered by the reduced penetration ammo argument just means you are deliberately choosing to use less powerful rounds that cannot adequately penetrate
Tirod said:
Are we suggesting that we should be using low powered underperforming ammo for self defense? In that regard, it's exactly the opposite of what is considered for CCW use.

Except in the case of rifle rounds like the .223, the hollow- and soft-point loads that are good for self-defense also tend to penetrate walls less than almost any handgun or shotgun load. Their high velocity (combined with their bullet construction) is what helps them break up and fragment in walls and therefore penetrate less, but that high velocity fragmentation also causes tremendous damage to the human body and is far more effective at stopping a threat than almost any handgun round.

Keep in mind that these aren't special pre-fragmented frangible bullets; those bullets are designed to break apart when shooting steel targets, but they actually tend to penetrate more in building materiel. No, the best .223 loads for limiting over-penetration are just regular soft-points or ballistic-tipped hollow-points.

So in the case of the .223, you don't need to use under-powered, under-performing ammo if you want to limit over-penetration; in fact, the lower the velocity the farther it will penetrate through walls. Now, if you actually want to be able to shoot through walls or other barriers, then you probably should pick different ammo. But characterizing self-defense .223 ammo as "under-powered" or "under-performing" is simply inaccurate; as long as you're not shooting though walls it performs quite well.
 
I am using 55 grain varmint loads as my HD load in my AR. They're hollow and actuall designed to come apart on contact...just the opposite of what you'd want for big game. My AR is not my primary HD gun. I have a handgun for that simply because it is way easier to make that handy to the nightstand. I've got 18 rounds of top shelf SD ammo loaded, one of which is in the chamber in line with a pre-cocked striker.
 
5.56 for HD for me if I have the time/option.

mk262 (Black Hills 5.56 77gr OTM)

And I agree about shooting through the door potentially being a reasonable/prudent/lawful course of action. When I lived in Indiana an off duty LEO shot somebody through his front door as they tried to break in, for example.
 
With proper bullet selection an AR-15 makes a very effective home defense weapon, often with less risk of over-penetration than you'd see with most handguns.

It's not a simple yes or no question when it comes to choosing a gun for home defense. The ammo plays a significant role, too, not to mention things like the layout of your house/property, construction of the building, and other people who might be in your house.

I'd not hesitate to use my AR-15 for home defense, provided that I have it loaded with a proper bullet for that purpose (ex: not FMJ ball ammo, not the green-tip stuff, etc).
 
I still think that an 18" bbl 12 gauge shotgun with 2-3/4" 00 buckshot or even bird shot is the best home defense firearm. My HD plan consists of a Remington 870 and SIG P220 within easy reach, and two Rottweilers. I have plenty of rifles but don't plan on using them for home defense unless I need to address a problem at my property line.
 
Does anyone have data on how many people are unintentionally wounded or killed in the United States by an over-penetrating bullet fired by a homeowner in a home defense situation? I'll bet the numbers are extremely low in comparison to the number of posts that have been made in the last decade on various firearms forums about the danger of over-penetration.
 
Nom de Forum said:
Does anyone have data on how many people are unintentionally wounded or killed in the United States by an over-penetrating bullet fired by a homeowner in a home defense situation? I'll bet the numbers are extremely low in comparison to the number of posts that have been made in the last decade on various firearms forums about the danger of over-penetration.
That's a good point, it's probably a very minor issue from a statistical standpoint. But for me, it's mostly a peace-of-mind thing; knowing my bullets are less likely to over-penetrate makes me feel better. That's not to say over-penetration isn't a still a consideration (even .223 self-defense ammo can still over-penetrate), but it's less likely to be an issue.

Also, while the number of people killed or wounded by over-penetration is probably very small, the legal and civil ramifications involved with putting a bullet into your neighbor's house (even if it doesn't hit anyone) is probably a more pressing concern.
 
I don't know of any data showing how often a legitimate SD shooting resulted in a bullet over penetrating and hitting an innocent person. But I do know that I see on the news and read in the paper pretty often where a stray bullet from a gang related drive by or street shoot out penetrated a house and hit someone inside. It does happen, just don't have access to any data.

The evidence is overwhelming that softpoint 223 ammo is far less likely to do this than any handgun round, slugs, or buckshot.

Personally, I still prefer a handgun as my 1st line of defense inside the home. Being able to use it one handed and leaving the other hand free for other things is a big plus. A lot easier to conceal a handgun in a nightstand too. But I do have access to a carbine length AR and a shotgun set up for SD.

If a long gun is used a carbine length AR rifle has every single advantage over a shotgun, at close range or distance. The carbines are far more compact, lighter, and have a tiny fraction of the recoil. About 5 ft lbs vs about 30 ft lbs with a shotgun with acceptable loads. The shotguns only advantage, having a large pattern making hits easier, is useless at close ranges. A shotguns advantages show up at intermediate ranges, 10-30 yards where the shot patterns can be most effective. Inside of 10 yards give me a handgun or carbine. Beyond 30 yards a carbine or rifle wins every time.
 
I still think that an 18" bbl 12 gauge shotgun with 2-3/4" 00 buckshot or even bird shot is the best home defense firearm. My HD plan consists of a Remington 870 and SIG P220 within easy reach, and two Rottweilers. I have plenty of rifles but don't plan on using them for home defense unless I need to address a problem at my property line.

I'll definitely pass on the birdshot.

Nothing against a shotgun with buck, down to #4 buck if you like, I'd still rather have an AR for the reasons mentioned above, but wouldn't argue with somebody using a 12 gauge and buckshot. (in fact, I've had a shotgun with buckshot sitting as my HD long gun for longer than I have had an AR, since I couldn't afford an AR for so long)

Does anyone have data on how many people are unintentionally wounded or killed in the United States by an over-penetrating bullet fired by a homeowner in a home defense situation? I'll bet the numbers are extremely low in comparison to the number of posts that have been made in the last decade on various firearms forums about the danger of over-penetration.

I can't think of any.

Whatever the actual number or rate is, it certainly seems to be quite low.
 
jmr40 said:
If a long gun is used a carbine length AR rifle has every single advantage over a shotgun, at close range or distance. The carbines are far more compact, lighter, and have a tiny fraction of the recoil. About 5 ft lbs vs about 30 ft lbs with a shotgun with acceptable loads. The shotguns only advantage, having a large pattern making hits easier, is useless at close ranges.

"every single advantage over a shotgun" ... how about 430gr of lead moving at 1,200 fps from one shot shell e.g. Remington 12 gauge 2-3/4" 00 buckshot? In the close confines of a home I want to stop the threat ASAP and that's where the payload of a shotgun shell comes into its own. I don't give a crap about the weight of a HD firearm unless I'm beating an intruder senseless with it!! I really don't see any significant advantage of a 16" carbine over an 870 for HD but I do see a number of disadvantages.
 
Warp said:
I'll definitely pass on the birdshot.

Birdshot loads at close range act like slugs. A 1-1/8 oz load of birdshot is almost 500gr of lead moving at something like 1,300 fps! Go shoot a sheet of plywood at 15 to 20 feet!
 
Birdshot? Plywood? The perp might be 250 pounds of blubber...

A whopping 4 inches of penetration in bare gel. Not even through heavy denim.

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The perp might be one helluva witness against you.

M
 
What were the conditions of the test shown? The FBI barrier test protocol for calibrating a gel block is that a BB with a MV of 590 fps (+/- 15 fps) should penetrate 2.9" to 3.74" at 10 feet. Hard to imagine that a BB with a MV more than twice the FBI protocol velocity would only penetrate 4". Personally, I use 00 or 000 buckshot but everyone's free to make their own choice.
 
These discussions always come to opinions based on the posters particular environment. If you live in a subdivision on a postage stamp sized lot where you and your neighbor can carry on a conversation while seated on your respective toilets you may have a different choice than I do living in a subdivision where the average lot size is three acres of dense wood forest. I can use a much heavier load than than the suburbanite or the modern pueblo dweller.

So, I would ask the you take into consideration our different surroundings before you tell someone else their choice is wrong.

BTW, if I stand with my back to my bedroom wall looking through the open bedroom door to the back door of the house there is a clear line of fire 20 yards long. That is the longest possible shot in the house. So, if one is to believe the old 1 inch per yard rule, if I were to deploy a shotgun at the distance I stand a good chance of hitting more than just the threat.
 
forget the neighbors! protecting yourself and your family in a hd situation is the only thing that matters. eliminate the threat asap with any and all weapons at your disposal. getrdone!

murf
 
The bottom line is that anything with enough penetrating capability to reliably anchor a threat also has enough penetrating ability to cause concerns that the projectile could go through wall board. But, with smart choices a person could use a rifle, pistol, or shotgun for home defense.

What surprised me when I attended a wound ballistics class was how deeply the 12 gauge slug penetrated in calibrated gelatin, even after being shot through windshield glass. It's a powerful tool, but definitely one that can cause issues if over penetration is a major concern. As for the idea of using birdshot, I think it's a poor choice. I've seen people shot with birdshot at close range before, and the surface wound sometimes looks pretty bad, but the shot doesn't penetrate deeply enough to cause damage to the areas that need to be damaged if you are trying to stop an attacking bad person. For shotgunners who want to employ the trusty 12 gauge for HD, 00 Buck seems like a nice compromise between the worrisome penetration offered by a slug, and the lack of penetration produced by loads that are designed for small birds.

Anyway, your milage may vary.
 
1858 said:
Birdshot loads at close range act like slugs.

Why would you say that? The penetration is much less than a slug. The diameter of the cavity is much more than a slug. From a pure physics perspective, tiny spherical pieces of shot, even if they weigh a total of 430gr, still shed energy and momentum like tiny, spherical pieces of shot and not like a 430gr slug.

In what way is birdshot at any range like a slug?
 
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