Rifles for HD use and "overpenetration"

[Frostbite]

It is nice to read so many different points of view. It feeds my own thinking about all this. Overpenetration would not be my first concern in HD. Still, I think we have to take it into consideration where I live. Suburbia is a nice place to raise kids, so much that every house has kids in it on my street, except for one where an older couple lives. I could not live with myself if I was responsible for a terrible accident which could cost a kid's life. I believe the multiplication of shots fired in different directions would increase the danger of collateral damage exponentially. That is why, if I was to rely on a gun for HD, it would be a twelve gauge shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot. One single shot should be enough to stop a threatening individual right there. Five other shots could follow very quickly if needed due to a greater number of attackers (my gun). I believe the risk of buckshot overpenetrating into the next house with injuring capacity to be extremely low. Happily, I have the great chance to enjoy a peaceful small town living, so my samurai sword is all that could be used as a real and effective weapon in here, except for myself, of course. The guns are always locked away. The only situation where I could picture myself being forced to use them for defense is an insurrection, and believe me, that is not going to happen here.
Thanks again for the thinking material though. I would not have considered a .223 rifle for HD before and I think I now understand it might just be the best option for some, depending on their circumstances. I would personally prefer the shotgun for its blunt stopping power, but if that kind of recoil is really too much for someone, then I think the .223 rifle is just the next best thing, but it has to be a semi-automatic in my humble opinion. I would definitely not want a bolt action for inside the house HD. Head shots are cool in video games, not so easy in a stressful situation where your loved ones need protection. One shot of 00 buckshot in the chest should be enough to stop anyone threatening them right there. I hear you: what about body armour? Well, what about it, really? Just aim a little higher if you are aware of it. If not, that shot you just fired should have slowed the bad guy enough so that you can end the threat rapidly. Not so sure about the .223 defensive ammo there. Yep, samurai swords are great!

 

[Theohazard]

I hear you: what about body armour? Well, what about it, really? Just aim a little higher if you are aware of it. If not, that shot you just fired should have slowed the bad guy enough so that you can end the threat rapidly. Not so sure about the .223 defensive ammo there.

Most .223 defensive ammo (ballistic-tipped hollow-points) will go through most body armor.

 

[Warp]

5.56 and .223 make swiss cheese of soft body armour. You would want/need at least level III hard armour to stop 5.56/.223.

http://bulletproofme.com/Ballistic_Protection_Levels.shtml

Like this:

http://www.ar500armor.com/ar500-armor-faq.html

 

[Snowblind]

I'm no expert, but I'd say it depends on your living scenario.

I would also say any high-powered rifle is not suitable for use indoors. Besides being less maneuverable in close-quarters, rifles are *generally* going to penetrate a lot more material.

The other issue I see is muzzle blast. Firing a shotgun without hearing protection is unpleasant. Firing a shotgun indoors without hearing protection is likely debilitating. But as bad as the blast on a shotgun is, I can't see it being anything but worse on a high-powered rifle. Most AR's come with muzzle brakes, which make that report even worse.

 

[Theohazard]

rifles are *generally* going to penetrate a lot more material.

C'mon, how many times do we have to go over this? This myth comes up multiple times in every thread discussing the use of rifles for HD. With the right defensive ammo, a small, light rifle round like the .223 will penetrate a lot less through walls than any handgun or shotgun load.

Most AR's come with muzzle brakes, which make that report even worse.

Most ARs come with flash hiders.

 

[Theohazard]

The 22 LR will do far more damage than people realize.I feel protected and that there will not be over penetration.

A .22 LR will penetrate a lot more through walls than a defensive .223 round.

 

[Frostbite]

Most .223 defensive ammo (ballistic-tipped hollow-points) will go through most body armor.

Thank you for correcting my erroneous belief, Theohazard. Now, gentlemen, about stopping power, is the .223 / 5.56 mm round as much a big bad dude effective stopper as a standard 2¾'' 00 buckshot blast? I guess shot placement is a little more important for the rifle. Do you think that level of accuracy is easily attainable for the majority of people in a HD scenario (I am not familiar with .223 shooting, even less with AR style rifles)? Trying to get convinced here: I really believe in the 12 gauge's effectiveness for HD, but the arguments I have read in favor of the .223 defensive ammo as a better choice make me question that belief.

 

[Warp]

Thank you for correcting my erroneous belief, Theohazard. Now, gentlemen, about stopping power, is the .223 / 5.56 mm round as much a big bad dude effective stopper as a standard 2¾'' 00 buckshot blast? I guess shot placement is a little more important for the rifle. Do you think that level of accuracy is easily attainable for the majority of people in a HD scenario (I am not familiar with .223 shooting, even less with AR style rifles)? Trying to get convinced here: I really believe in the 12 gauge's effectiveness for HD, but the arguments I have read in favor of the .223 defensive ammo as a better choice make me question that belief.

Shot placement trumps all no matter what you are using, including the almighty 12 gauge. All have failed to incapacitate attackers in a timely fashion, despite "good" (torso/chest), including 12 gauge buck.

Whatever level of accuracy is or is not attainable applies to either the rifle or the shotgun. It's not like the shot spreads a whole lot across a room. While we are talking about spread...I prefer the least amount of spread possible. The wider the pattern the harder it is to account for where every pellet will go, you could hit your target and miss, sending stray pellets elsewhere unimpeded, at the same time. We have covered out very rare over penetration in home defense seems to injure other people, but in the event that you need to make that precise shot, clearly a rifle would be better than spreading shot.

Another factor to consider is the ease of firing multiple shots rapidly on target with the carbine, if you are comparing to a pump action shotgun the difference is substantial.

I'm no expert, but I'd say it depends on your living scenario.

I would also say any high-powered rifle is not suitable for use indoors. Besides being less maneuverable in close-quarters, rifles are *generally* going to penetrate a lot more material.

The other issue I see is muzzle blast. Firing a shotgun without hearing protection is unpleasant. Firing a shotgun indoors without hearing protection is likely debilitating. But as bad as the blast on a shotgun is, I can't see it being anything but worse on a high-powered rifle. Most AR's come with muzzle brakes, which make that report even worse.

Most AR's come with the standard A2 flash hider, or some other flash hider. Most do NOT come with muzzle brakes.















Really, it doesn't matter. If you were to make a list of the factors influencing your chances of unqualified success in a use-of-firearm home defense situation, whether or not you have an AR or a shotgun in your hands is going to be waaay down towards the bottom of that last, provided of course that you are familiar and proficient with your choice of firearm and that said firearm is reliable.

 

[HOOfan_1]

Decibel level of various guns...

http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml

12 gauge
with a 26" barrel 156.1 dB
with an 18" barrel 161.5 dB

.223 18" barrel
155.5 dB

Seems like the typical home defense shotgun is going to be louder and a rifle can be easily suppressed if you can go through the NFA process

 

[Warp]

Decibel level of various guns...

http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml

12 gauge
with a 26" barrel 156.1 dB
with an 18" barrel 161.5 dB

.223 18" barrel
155.5 dB

Seems like the typical home defense shotgun is going to be louder and a rifle can be easily suppressed if you can go through the NFA process

I'm not familiar with the validity of that site...but when I went looking into this for purposes of contemplating the purchase of a rifle silencer, it seemed that a typical 16" AR with 5.56 ran 160-165 dB.

Which is about the same as an 18" 12 gauge.

Guns are LOUD.

 

[Nom de Forum]

I'm not familiar with the validity of that site...but when I went looking into this for purposes of contemplating the purchase of a rifle silencer, it seemed that a typical 16" AR with 5.56 ran 160-165 dB.

Which is about the same as an 18" 12 gauge.

Guns are LOUD.

I think you are high on the DB level for a 16" AR using a suppressor. If I recall correctly my Surefire Mini equipped SR15 is in the high 120 DB to low 130 DB range.




P.S. That is not a left hand ejecting SR-15, just another example of my incompetent photography.

 

[Warp]

I think you are high on the DB level for a 16" AR using a suppressor. If I recall correctly my Surefire Mini equipped SR15 is in the high 120 DB to low 130 DB range.

What I said/meant to say is that that a regular 16" 5.56 AR is 160-165 dB. That is the baseline/starting point. A suppressor would reduce it from there, how much it drops depending on the suppressor in question.

But I'm curious to see where you got those numbers from, they sound pretty wrong to me.

Even a full size AAC 762-SDN-6 firing sub sonic 300 blk is a claimed 126 dB. There's just no way a supersonic 5.56 is going to get down to that range, let alone with a mini size can.

FWIW I've listened to a Surefire Mini on a 5.56...albeit on a short barrel...it was loud.

 

[Panzerschwein]

I keep hearing all about "5.56 this" and "AR that", don't forget the SKS or AK-47! There are some really nice hollow point loads in 7.62x39mm that will fragment apart just like good 5.56/.223 defense loads.

I keep my Yugo M59/66A1 loaded with 10 rounds of Wolf 123 grain hollow-point rounds, with extra stripper clips next to the bed if I need them. This gun has NEVER failed me. The proper 7.62x39mm load will not penetrate any more walls than 5.56/.223 defensive loads, but delivers much more power and raw lead into the target. It is a highly effective cartridge for defense and pretty much stomps ANY 5.56/.223 "tactical" or "defense" loads on the market. No matter what you might think, a .30 caliber bullet weighing 123 grains that sheds all of it's 1550 ft-lbs energy in about 14" of ballistics gel- beats a .22 caliber bullet weighing 55 grains with 1200 ft-lbs of energy that it sheds in the same distance. The 7.62x39mm loads produce more fragments with overall higher energy and simply create much larger wounds that still reach beyond the FBI recommended minimum penetration of calibrated ballistics gelatin of 12 inches, while not overpenetrating.

But, on the subject of shotguns, I use 2 3/4" #4 buckshot for indoor defense work. I step up to 00 buck for out of doors defense uses. Honestly I have a tough time believing defensive rifle rounds of the 5.56/7.62x39 power class will penetrate less than a .25 cal lead sphere moving at 1100 FPS. I could be wrong though!

 

[Nom de Forum]

What I said/meant to say is that that a regular 16" 5.56 AR is 160-165 dB. That is the baseline/starting point. A suppressor would reduce it from there, how much it drops depending on the suppressor in question.

But I'm curious to see where you got those numbers from, they sound pretty wrong to me.

Even a full size AAC 762-SDN-6 firing sub sonic 300 blk is a claimed 126 dB. There's just no way a supersonic 5.56 is going to get down to that range, let alone with a mini size can.

FWIW I've listened to a Surefire Mini on a 5.56...albeit on a short barrel...it was loud.

Well first off, I uploaded a photo to my first post to establish that I do indeed have a Surefire Mini equipped SR-15. You are correct that even with the Mini it is loud, but of course no where near as loud without it. I could be completely wrong about the DB level. It has been a long time since I looked at any information on it. I am fairly sure the promised reduction from Surefire was something like 20 DB. What I can tell you from testing it inside my house (shush, don't tell the P.D. about this or try this at home kids) is that it is uncomfortably loud but not overwhelmingly loud and will reduce, if not prevent, permanent hearing damage.

 

[MCMXI]

In what way is birdshot at any range like a slug?

There are a number of important aspects of shotshell design including the cup material/thickness, shot material/shape and of course velocity. I worked with the Remington engineer responsible for some of the latest hypersonic loads and saw some interesting test results. The payload "squats" as it begins its journey down the barrel and can squat enough to puncture the shot cup. So at what range does the shot start to string? At what point does the shot separate fully from the cup? When it's in the barrel it's constrained by the shot cup but at some point the varying masses and forces cause the shot to string and deviate from the point of aim. I think it's fair to say that at very close range when the shot is still constrained it's mass distribution is more like a slug than a 20 yard bird shot pattern.

This thread is getting away from the OPs main points so my apologies. As I stated earlier, my preference for my situation is a 12 gauge shotgun with 00 or 000 buckshot and a pistol.

 

[mdauben]

I really believe in the 12 gauge's effectiveness for HD, but the arguments I have read in favor of the .223 defensive ammo as a better choice make me question that belief.

Without going into questionable statistics or subjective street results, I tend to agree that a I believe a load of 12ga buckshot to the COM would be more effective than a .223/5.56 bullet to the same point. I think where the advantages of the .223/5.56 rifle come are that the platform can be lighter, with less recoil, faster follow up shots, etc. Certainly, for a smaller individual an AR offers some worthwhile advantages over the classic 12ga pump.

 

[Warp]

Well first off, I uploaded a photo to my first post to establish that I do indeed have a Surefire Mini equipped SR-15. You are correct that even with the Mini it is loud, but of course no where near as loud without it. I could be completely wrong about the DB level. It has been a long time since I looked at any information on it. I am fairly sure the promised reduction from Surefire was something like 20 DB. What I can tell you from testing it inside my house (shush, don't tell the P.D. about this or try this at home kids) is that it is uncomfortably loud but not overwhelmingly loud and will reduce, if not prevent, permanent hearing damage.

For a 16" AR a mini sized silencer is what I would want. An 18-20oz 7"+ can on the end of a 16" barrel doesn't balance for crap and is pretty long/unwieldy in a house.

 

[Nom de Forum]

For a 16" AR a mini sized silencer is what I would want. An 18-20oz 7"+ can on the end of a 16" barrel doesn't balance for crap and is pretty long/unwieldy in a house.

I agree. In fact I am thinking about getting a Tavor and a longer more effective suppressor. I will not gain much in reduced DB at my ear but every little bit helps. I have also thought about getting a PS90 and hanging a can on it. But that is quite a reduction in power and I am not sure I want to accept that.

 

[mdauben]

For a 16" AR a mini sized silencer is what I would want. An 18-20oz 7"+ can on the end of a 16" barrel doesn't balance for crap and is pretty long/unwieldy in a house.

I wonder, would a 10" AR with a 7" silencer pinned to the barrel count as a SBR or not, the way a 14.5" AR with a 1.5" flash suppressor pinned to the barrel isn't a SBR?

 

[Sam1911]

I wonder, would a 10" AR with a 7" silencer pinned to the barrel count as a SBR or not, the way a 14.5" AR with a 1.5" flash suppressor pinned to the barrel isn't a SBR?

No, it could be pinned and welded on and then you'd only have to worry about the one tax stamp for the suppressor. But, of course, then you can't really take it off and clean the barrel separately, etc. With the right "serviceable" can, still having a shell that stays on the rifle long enough to get you over 16", it could work.

 

[Warp]

I wonder, would a 10" AR with a 7" silencer pinned to the barrel count as a SBR or not, the way a 14.5" AR with a 1.5" flash suppressor pinned to the barrel isn't a SBR?

Totally possible. But not popular because suppressors are expensive (and have a long wait these days) and versatile enough to use on many different firearms. It sucks to limit it to only one gun/upper.

If you live in a no-SBR state it might be worth considering, but then we have the Sig brace...

 

[benEzra]

less maneuverable in close-quarters

A 16" AR with a short or adjustable buttstock is shorter than an 18" barreled pump shotgun. Handguns are handier, but as far as long guns go, AR's and other 16" barreled carbines (even lever-actions) aren't bad.

rifles are *generally* going to penetrate a lot more material.

Full-power rifles shooting heavier bullets, sure. But .223/5.56mm shooting JHP/SP does not, and penetrates less than handgun JHP or 00 buckshot.

The other issue I see is muzzle blast. Firing a shotgun without hearing protection is unpleasant. Firing a shotgun indoors without hearing protection is likely debilitating. But as bad as the blast on a shotgun is, I can't see it being anything but worse on a high-powered rifle. Most AR's come with muzzle brakes, which make that report even worse.

Most AR's don't have brakes. I have a Vortex flash suppressor on mine, which (at least subjectively) is a little more pleasant than shooting a 16" .223 with a target crown, and it also gets rid of the potentially-blinding flash.

I agree 100% that brakes on an indoor-HD gun are a bad idea. Brakes not only push the loudness up to 165 dB or more, but they also greatly amplify muzzle flash, potentially flash-blinding the shooter in dim lighting.

I'm not familiar with the validity of that site...but when I went looking into this for purposes of contemplating the purchase of a rifle silencer, it seemed that a typical 16" AR with 5.56 ran 160-165 dB.

That seems high to me, but it may depend on where it was measured. The 155 dB for an 18" .223 was probably measured at the position of the shooter's ear. A 16" .223 will be a little louder, but (again, subjectively) mine seems comparable to my 3.5" 9mm or my friend's 12-gauge in terms of loudness, and is definitely less loud than a .357 revolver.

 

[Warp]

Looking at it, I mostly get 160-165 dB from the AAC literature which seems to show 162-164 for a 14.5" shooting M855.

 

[Art Eatman]

I really, really doubt that a suppressor will affect over-penetration.