Rights aside, why do we NEED guns, in the USA?

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Martin Aston

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I actually happen to work in a gun shop so I see the application of local gun laws everyday.

Aside from standard legal procedures we have our own shop policies. We ask for ID before we show any gun because we're not inclined to waste our time on someone who isn't eligible to buy. We're running a business, not an interactive exhibition.

A large percentage of our clientele tends to be young, disaffected males of our society who pull into the parking lot in a rolling sound system that sets off car alarms within a 200 yard radius... They'll drift into the store with an attitude of entitlement and proceed to drool over a Tec 9 and ramble on about popping caps...

Generally, we'll show anyone who's eligible, a gun. But in most cases we refuse service to groups of two or more. Especially when there's one who's doing the buying and another who's doing all the talking. We take the position that if it smells like a straw purchase it probably is. Of course, it's an on the spot judgement call but we take the position that our customers come to us and if they want to do business with us they'll have to do it our way or not at all.

Gun ownership has always been an essential American right. Because it is the essential right of every human being to defend their own existance. I'm not worried about that right being threatened. Even if we lived in a world of peace and love we still have the right to do as we please, as individuals, as long as we don't overtly hurt anyone else in the process.

The trouble is that people lie and generally consider everyone else to be stupid. We recently had a customer, a middle aged woman, wanting to buy a handgun. We showed her what we had and she picked one out. We gave her the form and we called it in to NICS. She was denied. Now, NICS don't tell us why they deny but this woman was happy to suggest that it might be because she'd served 12 years in jail for attempted murder...

My overall point is that aside from seeing, on a daily basis, the sort of people who WANT to buy guns I also see the people who are legally entitled to buy guns. Most of them may well be law-abiding and responsible gun owners but a LOT are clearly not. A brother covered in bling isn't likely to want that SKS because he's going after whitetail...

We don't need more gun laws; we need the right ones and for them to be applied. We, as a business, don't need the federal government to tell us that we have to sell every handgun with a trigger lock. That's petty and anal. But for a background check that comes up as Denied you'd think they'd at least want an address or a copy of the ID?

We don't need our guns to defend ourselves against governments; we need 'em to defend ourselves against the legally entitled but irresponsible gun owners and those determined to pack and who, if denied through the system, will be shopping the black market with bad intent. Which is why I keep all my guns loaded at all times. Trigger lock? What trigger lock...?;)
 
Firearms are an important part of American history. 99% of the gun laws in are rediculous. It's darn near impossible follow or enforce all of them. While firearms are covered by the 2nd Amendment, I'm not sure about ammunition. Firearms are virtually harmless without ammo. As the old saying goes, It takes two to tango;)
 
We don't need our guns to defend ourselves against governments

I read somewhere or heard it on the History Channel maybe, that the reason the USSR situation didn't escalate into WW3 was because someone over there had the smarts to realize that at some point they would have to stop bombing and send troops over. It went on point out that the reason behind not wanting to send troops over was because there are too many guns in the hands of civilians so it wouldn't be practical from a military standpoint.
 
We don't need our guns to defend ourselves against governments

You fundamentally do not understand the reason for the 2nd Amendment. It was not put their so we can defend ourselves against criminals, though obviously thats a fine use also. It was put in the bill of rights to defend ourselves from government.
 
So if I go in with my friend who is a new shooter you might refuse to show us guns because it might be a straw purchase? You'll refuse to show guns to someone based on their jewelry? Maybe the guy with the bling wants a cheap rifle to protect himself in his home. I'm sure sometime there would be obvious straw purchases you should turn away but I'd be careful about setting up too many rules involving how people dress or if they have company.

You seem to like the current laws like the background check and I'm not sure why. The woman that served her time and tried to buy a gun shouldn't be out of jail if she is still a danger to society. if she is still danger to society and wants to kill someone she'll just go to the black market and buy a gun like you suggested.
 
You need to catch up on history...

Start here: http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm

...That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness...

A disarmed people, since they've been stripped of the means of defending themselves against a tyrranous government, have lost the right to abolish/alter/reform-with-force that government.

We need guns to insure our freedom. You see how fast the progress toward fascism is with an armed populace...how much worse would you think it would be if we were all disarmed and powerless?
 
Soybomb said:
You seem to like the current laws like the background check and I'm not sure why. The woman that served her time and tried to buy a gun shouldn't be out of jail if she is still a danger to society.

I guess you haven't seen some of these judges who give rapists 3 month sentences?

You can serve your time, but the 2nd only applies to the law abiding, and for good reason.

I don't want felons having firearms. I personally would hang everyone one of them instead of using the prison system, but thats just me.
 
The only gun law I'd like to see added to the books is that everyone should have to take a CCW CLASS before being issued a CCW license. I think the major problem with accidental shootings in this coutry stems from people not knowing propper gun safety. Not to mention that not everyone that carries knows the laws about carrying.

Some states already require this, but Washington is not one of them. As the victim of an accidental shooting, I would support this becoming law.
 
The only gun law I'd like to see added to the books is that everyone should have to take a CCW CLASS before being issued a CCW license. I think the major problem with accidental shootings in this coutry stems from people not knowing propper gun safety. Not to mention that not everyone that carries knows the laws about carrying.

Some states already require this, but Washington is not one of them. As the victim of an accidental shooting, I would support this becoming law.
perhaps you have some statistical evidence for how fewer instances of accidental shootings there are in states with mandatory training opposed to states without? We have to be careful to not pass the kind of feel good but non-effective legislation in the same way the brady group does.

I guess you haven't seen some of these judges who give rapists 3 month sentences?
If thats the problem, background checks for gun owners isn't the solution.
 
Whether you feel you *need* a gun or not, your neighbor may feel (or even think) otherwise, and it ain't your job to determine that for them.
As for folks coming into the store, you should (if you are the owner of the store) have every right to refuse a sale to anyone, for whatever reason.
Of course, in PC America, that isn't the case (and I'd tend to avoid stores that refused sales based on silly crap like skin color or musical taste).
Folks who own dogs with bad reputations (deserved or not) have a phrase I like:
"Blame the deed, not the breed."

I haven't 'needed' a gun for anything so much as I've wanted them and enjoyed them. If/when the government gets to that point (thanks, Claire Wolfe) then I want the hardware I need to either defend my family and neighbors, or to acquire better goodies.
 
Well, if you feel that you can adequately defend yourself by other means, then I guess you don't need a gun. I feel that I need mine.



Aside from standard legal procedures we have our own shop policies. We ask for ID before we show any gun because we're not inclined to waste our time on someone who isn't eligible to buy. We're running a business, not an interactive exhibition.

Way wrong attitude. God forbid a younger person who isn't yet able to buy begin forming an idea of what he/she wants when they come of age.

If I knew of a shop around here that operated t hat way, I would do my best to make sure nobody purchased form them. The local shop I did most of my business with was the one I visited regularly fromt he time I was about 12. The owner let me hang out, chat, handle firearms, etc. Nurtured my interest, and I returned the favor by always making his shop my first stop.
 
There are evil people in the world. I would love to live in a world where I didn't need to worry about keeping a gun around (although I would still have them for recreation regardless of need) but we don't live in that world.
As long as there are evil people I will need a way to resist them. It isn't foolproof but it is better than calling 911 and praying that the police show up before I die.
 
I noticed a lot of the more recent Superman material has some antigun rhetoric. I guess it's easy not to 'need' a gun when you're bulletproof (or have a bulletproof/armed friend around to save you. Oh, Hi, Rosie! :barf: )
 
We don't need our guns to defend ourselves against governments

1. Mao
2. Stalin
3. Hitler
4. Pol Pot
5. General Field Marshal Doctor Idi Amin

Any of these names ringing any bells? I'm sure you see plenty of idiots in your shop... go hang around with politicians for a while, though, and you'll see people with much BIGGER stupid ideas, talking about poppin' much bigger caps.
 
I won't even waste my time...

...trying to argue all of the asinine arguments for why nobody NEEDS guns. You sound like an anti... But I will say this...

A brother covered in bling isn't likely to want that SKS because he's going after whitetail...

Just how in the hell do YOU know? And who are you to decide what that "brother" needs his gun for? Is there something wrong with a black man wanting an SKS, just because he wants it? Good grief, the nerve on this guy...

You said a few other things about the way you guys treat your customers in that store that basically revealed that you guys are a bunch of elitist bigots, but this one just pissed me off.

Then again, I guess I can be happy knowing that stores like yours usually crash and burn when it's all said and done. But I really don't understand how or why anyone who owns a gun store in the day where NONE of you can compete with internet prices, would harass and discriminate against their customers. I noticed you weren't quite silly enough to give us the name of the place you work.

My advice - build a time machine... Go back to Mississippi in the 1950's or so, and re-open your business there. If your opinion is in the majority of the people you work with, you might do well there... but it would seem to me that your kind of business, and the attitude of you and your co-workers does more to hurt the RKBA than it does to help it.

Un-friggin-believeable.
 
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Hmm. Actually, I do know a couple guys, from the armored car outfit for which I used to work. They do the 'bling-thing' as a matter of style, and have cars to match (yeah, they drove me nutz about it, too... my pickup is still stock and will likely stay that way).
They both hunt. One has a nice Weatherby, and the other guy liked my Marlin 336 so much that he got one of his own. I didn't go last year, but the second guy did well, and shared a roast with me.
Great guys, even though I don't share their sense of style.


...and no, they never shot their pistols sideways when we did our quals.
 
PHENOM - "While firearms are covered by the 2nd Amendment, I'm not sure about ammunition. Firearms are virtually harmless without ammo."


You can't possibly be serious.

Are you???????????????????? :confused:

L.W.
 
Serious about what:confused: The only thing I can think of as to why you asked that question is about the ammunition.
 
You aren't in the gun-selling business, you're in the sneering elitist bigot business.

If I come in with my buddy, son, or wife, you'll just tell me to hit the road. If I'm the wrong color, you don't want my business.

If I came into your store by myself and saw the way you treat people, that would be the last you'd see me.

I'll bet you aren't paid on commission, are you?

--Travis--
 
There is so much wrong with that opening post, I don't know where to begin...Cousin Mike summed up my sentiments pretty well so I think I'll just walk away.
 
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