Rights aside, why do we NEED guns, in the USA?

[ksnecktieman]

I oppose required training. I do not say that training is not as good thing. A "training certificate" to carry a concealed weapon is repugnant to the second ammendment. Item one, the permit is an infringement. Item two, IF we allow a small safety training requirement it will not be long before we have a different set of politicians, or beaurocrats determining the training level required. Soon we may have a 2,000$ training requirement from gunsite, or an equivalent facility to excercise our rights.

The power to tax any thing is the power to eliminate it. whether we call the tax a permit fee, or a training fee, or a 200$ machine gun tax, or transfer fee. It can be increased to the point no one can afford it.

 

[Martin Aston]

What's clear to me about the second amendment is that it was written at a time when government could ill afford to equip a standing military and most of the country was still a wild frontier waiting to be tamed. But anyone who suggests that the job's done, we're a civilised society and we can all turn in our guns can smooch my butt.

I think the right to own a gun is a right so deeply engrained in the American cultural psyche that we're wasting our time and energies defending it. Ban any honest responsible American from owning or carrying a gun? Ain't gonna happen. Isn't it that level of personal freedom that defines us as Americans?

I'm not interested in being PC but I'm also a lot more tolerant and open minded than most. We don't practice racial profiling but, in business, time is money and we have to determine in a matter of seconds whether we're going to spend the next hour with someone who'll actually buy, and be eligible to buy, or whether we're wasting our time. We're not pre-judging people but we have to read their attitude. And we sometimes get it wrong as with that woman "ex-con." We bought into her appearance as a nice, middle aged single woman who wanted some personal protection. Most of the time we tend to be polite and, if it's quiet, go along but we're usually right in our assessment as to the result. If it gets as far as a sale it'll either be an obvious Proceed, Deny or Delay. There are few suprises, like that woman...

Personally, I think when she was found guilty of a felony and sentenced to prison she lost her right to ever again be legally given the opportunity to re-offend. And even if we had sold her the gun wouldn't that have been a violation of her parole? So she goes back to jail and we lose our FFL? Should we not have a sex offenders registry? Should a pedophile, who's done their prison sentence be allowed to return to teaching kindergarten? Of course, we could just keep 'em all in jail for the rest of their lives but I'd rather see my tax dollars spent more productively... FWIW, I think anyone who commits a non-violent felony and spends less than five years in prison should be allowed to buy a gun fifteen years after being released. Pay their debt to society and then pay their debt to their community. Violent re-offenders, without shadow of doubt, should be executed on the courthouse steps immediately after sentence is pronounced.

@Outlaws; I'm with you but I think a single .44 Magnum to the brain pan is a lot more efficient than a rope...and a lot cheaper than chairs, gas or lethal injections...

@velojym; You're right. It's not just need. What would life be without our toys? For me it's Guns, Guitars, Cars and, with all due respects to any present...women...

@MachIVshooter; Any kid who wants to learn as much as he can about guns before he's old enough to buy one should either be getting his education from his family, responsible adult friends or the NRA. Or Guns & Ammo, like I did. We're not qualified to teach.

I'm not the owner and, FWIW, the shop has been going since 1946.

@Cousin Mike; I sell guns, I own guns and I love guns. What exactly am I anti?
I don't mention the name or location of my shop because I'm not here to drum up business. We don't typically refuse service to anyone but we exercise our right to do so if required. We'll sell any firearm in stock to any qualified customer as long as they pass the background check. We don't care about our customers ethnicity anymore than we care about what they actually intend to do with that weapon when they walk out the door. Neither is our concern. What is is that we conduct our business in a respectable and legal manner and try to avoid wasting time on people who only want to waste ours.

And when it comes to straw purchases we have to "read" each situation as it occurs. We often get married couples where the husband is doing all the talking but they're buying a gun for the wife. We have to use our discretion. Matching last names and addresses on their DLs helps. But the danger of a straw purchase is clear. Someone buys a gun in their name but the gun is for someone who cannot legally buy or own a gun. With the endless possibilities of that should we not be careful?

If anyone else around here actually works in a gun shop, instead of speculating on their utopian concept of one, I'd like to hear whether you find it a simple straightforward business and how you find dealing with the large numbers of diverse people who come through the door...?

 

[22-rimfire]

Need to have a firearm? No, firearms and the Second Amendment are NOT about "need". It is about individual rights. The issue was incorporated into our Bill of Rights because the majority of the founding fathers believed that we had a right to protect ourself from our own government's tyranny. Where that line is? I have no idea. They did not want a standing army either. Our volunteer army comes closer to what they had in mind. It was not very long before the need for a standing army was adopted in order to protect our country against foreign and domestic "invaders". I strongly hope that the "need" to control our citizens by disarming them never comes to pass.

Gun stores need to be very careful about straw purchases.

We all profile to some degree. I get a call about doing business that requires my time prior to getting a job. I have to make the judgement if the call represents someone looking for free advice or really wants to hire someone. I prefer that the caller just tell me up front and I usually take the time to talk, but will rarely pay them a visit to evaluate a problem at their location unless I have some feeling that there is a reasonable job potential.

I like gun stores personnel that are willing to take the time to show you their merchandise. That is a bit different from a phone call. If a gunshop employee does not please me, I usually don't buy through that person. If I like the store, I'll come in another day and work through a different person and buy then. I doubt if the other employee even realizes what has just occurred.

 

[Cousin Mike]

Utopian, eh?

Well, I guess I have my Eutopia here in Ohio. There are about 4 gun shops/shooting ranges near me, and probably 15 different sporting stores or other types of places which sell guns. One I've never been to... One treats customers the way you claimed to treat them in your first post. They don't seem to be adjusting too well IMO.

The rest make good money.

You can try to polish things up now because you didn't get the 'atta-boy you were probably looking for - or maybe you are, in fact, a troll. But you spoke very plainly about the way you treat your customers where you work, and in fact, you sounded very proud of yourself.

So I'm sorry that you didn't get the praise you sought for your not-so-clever and not-so-subtle assumption that the "brother with the bling," only want to buy guns to mow down their fellow gangbangers, but this is not a site where we welcome that attitude with open arms. Or maybe you don't understand the concept of The High Road.

And to answer your question -

What exactly am I anti?

Well it seems to me that anyone who doesn't please your eye shouldn't be able to buy a gun in your store... Amongst other things, I could call that anti-social.

Combine that with your interpretation of the 2nd amendment, one could also call you anti-lots-of-things... like American. But I digress.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Sounds like you have a bad case of retail angst. Maybe retail isn't for you if you can't remember that all these people who walk in are helping keep the lights on and shelves stocked. oh, and a check in your pocket every week.

Maybe you should find another job if you dislike your clientele that much.

I will agree with you on your finer points of knowing strawmen when you smell them. And, I agree that you can refuse service at any time to any one.

Personally, I can't imagine working in a retail gun shop. From the lone nutjob making creepy statements to the know it all reloader/magazine quoter/message board guy, I'd pull my hair out. (I worked in motorcycle sales for a while- same types with different gizmos)
I can barely stand going to gun shops and listening to these types as I breeze through for ammo or accessories. Ditto for shoots. But, I hate the average person's constantly ratcheting jaw and wagging tongue and don't work in retail.

So, you have a tough job, I recognize that, and maybe you're just blowing off some steam and came across wrong.

 

[FPrice]

The primary reason the American Revolution erupted into open warfare was the attempt by the British in Boston to appropriate arms (and ammunition) from the Colonists in Concord. The Colonists instinctively understood that an un-armed people stood little chance against an armed force, especially an oppressive government. This is the reason for the Second Amendment, to insure that the citizenry has the armed power to overthrow a corrupt government.

Individual self-defense and hunting are certainly just reasons, but they are secondary to possessing the power to defend one's self against an unjust government.

 

[Ryder]

Rights aside, why do we NEED guns, in the USA?

Same reason you "need" to be able to ask that question. Being free means nobody can demand how you speak just as it means nobody can demand you not own a gun.

You might as well be asking why not trade liberty for slavery. To find out you "need" to be asking those who have already surrendered the freedom of their own hearts and minds.

It's funny to me how people ask "what part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?" because that's how I feel about freedom. It isn't a question of guns, it is a question of freedom.

 

[Don Gwinn]

My dad sold a whole lot of cheap, pot-metal "Saturday Night Specials" in our little town. We sold to anyone who passed the background check; our assumption was that if you weren't a criminal or mentally ill, you knew better than we did what you wanted and needed. To my knowledge, dad never once heard from ATF or whoever about a crime trace. Not once.

I suppose we didn't have very many "brothers" coming in, though, because this is a heavily caucasian area.

So, you know, cut this guy some slack. He has to deal with black-African-Negro-Americans.


Just a note: so far the responses, while not very positive, have been impressive in that our membership has stayed on the High Road. Let's keep that going!

 

[spartacus2002]

Guys, don't feed the troll.

 

[Hazwaste]

I wish I could be morally superior enough to run a gun shop, so that I could stand in judgment of my customers.

 

[Silver Bullet]

Many years ago, on The Firing Line, there was a thread about need versus want with regards to guns.

Somebody had a great response (paraphrasing):

There is 'want'.

And there is 'need'.

But most of all there is 'deserve'.

I deserve a new gun.

 

[mnrivrat]

Gun ownership has always been an essential American right. Because it is the essential right of every human being to defend their own existance. I'm not worried about that right being threatened. Even if we lived in a world of peace and love we still have the right to do as we please, as individuals, as long as we don't overtly hurt anyone else in the process.

Me thinks you may be thinking of the wrong planet ? I find no place on this one where this is true.

 

[bearmgc]

An armed Society is a polite society. There are bad guys out there willing and wanting to take what is not theirs. Many would think twice about theivery and murder, if they knew everyone carried, and had the means to defend themselves at home. Victimization is a fact of life. This is not a "barney" world. The police can't be everywhere, and should not be expected to be everywhere all the time. Guns though will get into the hands of badguys and the unstable whether we have gun laws or not, ie see the definition of bad guys.

 

[SolaScriptura139]

Way wrong attitude. God forbid a younger person who isn't yet able to buy begin forming an idea of what he/she wants when they come of age.

If I knew of a shop around here that operated t hat way, I would do my best to make sure nobody purchased form them.

+1, I would never shop at a store that wouldn't let me look at the guns if I was under 21 (within reason). You may be running a business, but that's no way to build report with potential customers. By refusing someone who's 20 to look at a gun, you've probably lost a future customer with a possible 500-1000 dollar purchase. Tell me, is spending maybe 10 minutes with a customer too much of a hassle for that amount of money? Terrible way to run a business. :banghead:

I think the right to own a gun is a right so deeply engrained in the American cultural psyche that we're wasting our time and energies defending it. Ban any honest responsible American from owning or carrying a gun? Ain't gonna happen. Isn't it that level of personal freedom that defines us as Americans?

Right, tell that to the people who were able to pass the assault weapons ban, and ask California about their freedom of gun ownership.

Personally, I think when she was found guilty of a felony and sentenced to prison she lost her right to ever again be legally given the opportunity to re-offend.

How can you prevent someone from re-offending by taking away their 2A rights? You can still commit felonies with a knife, or a checkbook. Plus, it's not that hard to get a gun, if she's going to commit a crime, do you think she cares that for her buying a gun is illegal? You can't monitor every private gun sale in America, but the Democrats will sure try.

 

[xd9fan]

Rights aside, why do we NEED guns, in the USA?

Rights aside, why do you NEED free speech, in the USA

 

[lawson4]

Besides needing the weapons to defend the Constitution, we do need them for protection and recreation.
Yes, I said need for recreation. Some people started out with perhaps an interest in history that lead to interest in warfare that lead to an interst in firearms. These people might never have found an avenue for thier interest if not for firearms.

Rick

 

[Deanimator]

Because 911 is a communications system of variable efficacy, not a matter transporter which deposits a policeman at your location, who has a LEGAL DUTY, the ABILITY, and the INCLINATION to "protect" you.

I've needed the police to "protect" me twice. In the first instance, they REFUSED. In the second, they were unavailable and impossible to contact. In both cases, particularly the latter, it's entirely possible that I would not be alive to type this had I not been in possession of a loaded firearm with which to defend myself.

I have dialed 911 a number of times in the last ten to fifteen years. In NONE of those instances did the police respond in sufficient time to "protect" me if my life had been in danger. If my life is in IMMEDIATE danger, it's as likely that Bigfoot will show up in time to "protect" me, as the police. And that presumes complete willingness on the part of the police to "protect" me. I have personally seen as well as heard of instances where that intent was partially or totally lacking.

A belief in "protection" by the police, absent a specific "special relationship" and police detailed TO YOU for that purpose, is less well founded than a belief in UFOs, Bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster.

 

[Jim K]

Mr. Aston works in a gun store, and presumable wants to sell guns, but he wants to decide, based on race or class, to whom he will sell guns. With some obvious exceptions (a drunk or an obvious straw purchase), that is not his decision to make and he needs to be reminded that constitutional rights are not subject to his racism or his whim.

His job is to obtain valid identification, run the Brady checks, and, if applicable, submit the application to the proper authorities. And sell the gun. Who is he to judge whether a "brother" is a criminal or an honest man who needs protection?

What is the use of fighting to keep police from denying us rights on a whim if a gun store can do the same thing?

Jim

 

[Leanwolf]

PHENOM - "The only thing I can think of as to why you asked that question is about the ammunition."

Yep.

Can you possibly be serious about questioning if the Second Amendment covers ammo???

If one were to raise that question -- as good left wing, gun grabbing liberals do -- one would have to then assume a direct, internal contradiction in the meaning of the Second. Guns okay: ammo forbidden.

Okay to protect the country, home and hearth and self with a gun... so long as you have no ammo. Hmmmm.

A gun without ammunition, whether today's cartridges, or the Founding Fathers' powder, lead balls, shot, and flint, is nothing more than an expensive, awkward club.

That's about as clear as I can make it.

L.W.

 

[Phenom]

I simply said I wasn't sure about ammunition.

 

[Saturnine]

I dont think the threadstarter meant to come off the way he did. I think his point was more that they dont sell guns to people they consider sketchy or otherwise ineligible. I seriously doubt that he'd see a black customer with "bling" and kick them out unless they were obviously intending to use the gun illegally. As he mentioned, people going on about "popping caps" probably require more scrutiny. The same goes for the underaged, I dont think they just kick out everyone under 18. I took it as they wouldnt put up with immaturity and other nonsense.

It really comes down to his personal choice. He has the right to sell a gun to whoever he wishes, assuming theyre eligible. But he also has the responsibility to make sure he's putting that gun into responsible hands. I for one would feel awful if I sold a man a gun after getting a bad vibe from him, only to find out that he murdered someone.

Then again, I could be wrong and this guy could be a total asshat. However, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, you wont get far on the internet if you take everything literally.

As for why I NEED a gun? The anti gun folks cant come up with a single valid reason why I dont. They do however, provide me with a reason to own one. That reason is, you cant take a gun from someone without having a gun of your own. I'd like to see them eliminate the "threat" of gun ownership without using the threat of force, it cant be done. How am I to eliminate threats without being unable to pose a danger to those harming me? Asking nicely doesnt get you very far.

 

[MachIVshooter]

@MachIVshooter; Any kid who wants to learn as much as he can about guns before he's old enough to buy one should either be getting his education from his family, responsible adult friends or the NRA. Or Guns & Ammo, like I did. We're not qualified to teach

And what if they don't have those resources available? My dad died when I was 11 and my mother and step father were anti's. No one else was around to teach, so I would ride my bicyle 7-1/2 miles to town in order to immerse myself in the culture I so wanted to become a part of.

I'm not interested in being PC but I'm also a lot more tolerant and open minded than most. We don't practice racial profiling but, in business, time is money and we have to determine in a matter of seconds whether we're going to spend the next hour with someone who'll actually buy, and be eligible to buy, or whether we're wasting our time. We're not pre-judging people but we have to read their attitude.

I frequent many gunshops, and I've never seen one that busy.

If your store had been in my area, you'd have missed out on thousands of dollars in sales from me alone, not to mention the word of mouth bit. There is a gunshop in my area that behaves similarly to the way you have described yours. He is barely staying afloat while others flourish.

The guy who is dressed in ragged jeans and a faded tee shirt, soft spoken and seems only midly interested may well be the guy with 5 grand in his front pocket. Same goes for the "blinged-out brotha". Not too long ago, I was at one of our local stores when a black guy came in. He was probably about 25, dressed in what you might consider "bling" (no 30 pound gold chain, but baggy clothing with some jewlery). There was a semi-auto MP5 that had been on the shelf for weeks at $4,500. In your shop, sounds like it would have stayed there. But the guys at this shop treated him with the respect due any new customer and he paid cash for that gun. IIRC, he was a software programmer.

 

[The_Shootist]

Can You Spell

....Katrina? Sure ya can.

There are bad people out there....and the cops are there just to clean up the mess. You are on your own for your own protection.

 

[XavierBreath]

My overall point is that aside from seeing, on a daily basis, the sort of people who WANT to buy guns I also see the people who are legally entitled to buy guns. Most of them may well be law-abiding and responsible gun owners but a LOT are clearly not. A brother covered in bling isn't likely to want that SKS because he's going after whitetail...

Let me make certain I understand this........

The shop you work at only caters to whitetail hunters?

Or perhaps your shop makes sales decisions based on skin tone and fashion?

Or do you make decisions regarding a person's character based on skin tone, fashion, and their predilection for "going after whitetail"?

Which is it?

I am not a "brother" and I do not wear "bling" but the offensiveness of this statement is exceeded only by it's ignorance.

 

[Baba Louie]

What is the use of fighting to keep police from denying us rights on a whim if a gun store can do the same thing?

While any business has the right to refuse service, and while I'd think long and hard about denying any specific group based on race, color or creed... I do think that like Cops who, after spending some time on the streets, can spot trouble or things that "Just Don't Look Right" (JDLR), certain signals offered by certain customers that add up to JDLR would give one pause to think about selling any form of deadly weapon, be it firearm, knife, chainsaw, fertilizer/fuel oil, airliner flying lessons sans landing instruction, etc.

I was in a local gun store this past Tuesday evening (bought another S&W 60) which was quite crowded, insanely crowded, on both sides of the counter. While I was going through the purchase process, they turned away four (4) people who were for one reason or another, ineligible to purchase something they wanted.

I was amazed. A young man with bench warrants, out of state (CA) visitors trying to buy an AR and/or magazines for same (2 people) and one lady with a felony conviction. Each was allowed to fondle that which they desired. Each was turned down once a few questions were asked and/or I.D. was presented. All that in the 20 minutes I was in the store. (Not that it's germaine to the OP but all were caucasian... well, maybe it's a little relevant)

The staff handled it well during the process, but did make a comment or two in passing, once the ineligible person(s) left the store.

During the same time frame I did watch 8 out of town visitors rent full autos for some LV burp gun range time.

But to answer the OP's question, "Why do we NEED guns in the USA?" Our freedoms (what few we have left) are too precious to trust to elected politician types, appointed judicial types, salaried Bureaucratic types... or the King of England. And boy, it must really chap their cheeks that we have the ones that we do (cause they keep making it more and more difficult at every turn).

And I like that. (the cheek chapping part... not their infringement effort part)

Besides that, it's hard running down deer and stabbing them to death, coaxing ducks and pheasants into staying still long enough to grab them or telling Mr. Kodiak bear to bug off while you peacefully fish for salmon on the same river.

And none of the above even mentions dealing with Mr. Bad Guy who thinks he owns whatever you bought or worked for.