RMR/etc Cowitness Hype?

[The_Next_Generation]

Hey everyone,

With the release of red-dot-ready polymer pistols from the big manufacturers, Ive been seeing a lot more of them on the range. I have had the chance to shoot some very nice "worked on" competition Glocks with RMRs installed.

I just dont understand why so many people want everything to "cowitness". I mean in all honesty, the RMR is a fantastically reliable piece of hardware. Not only that but the window is already so small to begin with - why take up half the FOV with a set of sky-scraper-height backup sights? I know, I know..."what if the dot goes down"...then use your screwdriver from your range bag to remove the dot, and finish shooting the competition that day with the standard-height sights that you can now see.

If the dot is filling a serious "social" role, I cant see why you couldnt just shoot through the empty window at self defense ranges. Chances are in a SD shooting you would be relying on muscle memory and point-shooting anyways, so I think arguments for BUIS that cowitness on a handgun are moot to begin with.

Am I the only one that thinks cowitnessing BUIS is over-hyped?

Cheers,
- TNG

 

[larryh1108]

I agree with everything you stated.
Going "tactical" has changed the playing field and this doesn't mean it's better, just a way to get more of our money, IMO.

 

[Sam1911]

I would personally agree with you. I've yet to see a value in true co-witness with either pistols or rifles. I sort of like the idea that you could (just, barely) take a sight over the irons through the lower 1/3 or 1/4 of the optic's view window, but full co-witness I'd see as a detriment due to the loss of open, clear view of the target obscured by tall sights that don't need to be there 99.99% of the time.

And yeah, for everything I'm likely to need such devices for in my lifetime, either I can hit it well enough with a general sight picture through the blank sight window (defensive = close) or I have a minute to pull off the optic and use the backup sights (match type setting).

 

[JohnBiltz]

The only real advantages to true co-witness are its a whole lot easier to zero and you can verify that the sight is still on zero with a glance. I've got one AR with true co-witness and one that is not. I don't think its worth the expense of an adapter and having a less busy sight picture is a good thing.

 

[Girodin]

In linking this material I will lead off by saying I'm not a fan of Mr. Suarez's personality and some other aspects of him. That said he is a guy who does actually use equipement hard and does a lot of force on force validation of concepts he teaches. I have seen good material from him. In sum he is not my favorite person in the world but I also wouldn't make the error of just ignoring something because he is the one who said it. He obviously is financially vested in red dot pistols. He also has put in a lot of time effort, etc to the concept. I'm not a fan of some of the machismo and noise on his forum but between all of that there is some good thought on the how's and whys of red dot pistol equipment and technique. If you really want to have a better understanding do some reading here http://www.warriortalk.com/forumdisplay.php?291-Suarez-Red-Dot-Pistols-Knowledge-Base

 

[kozak6]

The idea is that the sights get you on target quicker so you don't have to chase the dot.

 

[Sam1911]

The idea is that the sights get you on target quicker so you don't have to chase the dot.

That would be a good point regarding laser red for sights.

In the case of red dot optics, however, you shouldn't be chasing anything. See dot, put it on target, press trigger. It is measurably faster than irons, all other things being equal.

The dot acts just like a bright glowing version of the front sight, except better. If it's on the target you'll hit it.

 

[Coop45]

Irons were fun when I could see them, but now old eyes hate irons. Old eyes like red dots.

 

[Girodin]

That would be a good point regarding laser red for sights.

In the case of red dot optics, however, you shouldn't be chasing anything. See dot, put it on target, press trigger. It is measurably faster than irons, all other things being equal.

The dot acts just like a bright glowing version of the front sight, except better. If it's on the target you'll hit it.

With red dot pistols one does not have the same four points of contact as with a rifle. Thus it is more difficult to have the gun come up to the same place each time on presentation. Many people find that picking up the dot is an issue when they first uses a red dot pistol. Its not an insurmountable issue but is something people deal with.

 

[ny32182]

I don't currently have any interest in them competitively or otherwise, but I pretty much agree with the OP.
At least on rifles, you can fold the cowitness sights out of the way. On a pistol I can't imagine wanting cowitness sights in any potential application, really.

The entire point of the dot is to remain target focused all the time and thus faster. If you can't pick up the dot quickly, or if you need to find the irons in order to find the dot, then either practice until this isn't the case, or get rid of the dot, as it is superfluous at that point.

 

[Darkbob]

Many people find that picking up the dot is an issue when they first uses a red dot pistol

I agree with Girodin on this. I have a red dot on a .22/45. While I have no problem lining up the dot (muscle memory, indexing, training, whatever you want to call it), I can't count the times I've handed the pistol to someone else to shoot and they couldn't see the dot. I have had to tell them that they are pointing the gun below their target so they'll raise up the POA then, voila, the dot magically appears for them.

I assume, for most of us, when we present a pistol that we are familiar with, even in the dark, the pistol will point fairly close to where we intend. But for a new shooter, or for a pistol with a different grip angle, or just a shooter who is a bit out of practice, they may need to start with the sights that they can see until the dot appears.

 

[DMK]

I used to depend on co-witnessing through the optic and have had that save my day when my batteries died and I forgot to carry replacements.

Then one day I shattered my optic's glass and couldn't see through it. If I had tools, I could have removed it or punched the shattered glass out, but it convinced me that a QD optic was the way to go if preventing any sight failure was a priority.

That said I still like co-witness (red dot on the top edge of the front sight) on a defensive firearm because if it is a simple electronic or battery failure at the worst time I already have my sight alignment with my irons.

Better to have an not need than need and not have.

 

[threefeathers]

After attending a Suarez class on just leaning to use the RMR I learned how to use the co-witness sights and doing so makes this sight system ultra fast. The red dot appears exactly as yo see the front sight. It is easy to hit the 10, 15, 30, 25, 30, 40 yard targets very quickly. The farther the distance the better the red dot works. With drilling this is a game changer especially at distance.

 

[packpike]

I have a RMR on an FNX-45 Tactical. It's a fun range gun. This is the 2nd one I've had as I had to send the first one back to the mfg. Occasionally the red dot goes out. Then after firing another round it will reappear. It doesn't happen too often, but it does happen, so I like the co-witness option. When I'm using the red dot I don't even notice the sites.

 

[1KPerDay]

I have over 10K rounds through my M&P CORE/RMR setup and here are my thoughts FWIW:
1. Micro red dots on handguns are not easy to get used to, particularly if you have significant experience with the traditional iron sights and want to be fast.
2. Once you get some time in they are very quick in multiple hits on target or transitions from target to target.
3. I personally ignore the sights, even though they will cowitness in the lower third of the window. Moving focus from front sight to target/dot confuses my primitive caveman brain. I can see how it might be faster in presentation if you drill that way and I may start doing that. I feel like first round on target is slightly slower with my setup/method than with irons. But all the rest is faster. Hopefully I will have a timer soon to verify.
4. New shooters invariably have trouble finding the dot.

Packpike make sure your screws are tight and use blue loctite. Mine did that and turns out it was slightly loose and the battery connection was inconsistent.

 

[packpike]

I have over 10K rounds through my M&P CORE/RMR setup and here are my thoughts FWIW:
1. Micro red dots on handguns are not easy to get used to, particularly if you have significant experience with the traditional iron sights and want to be fast.
2. Once you get some time in they are very quick in multiple hits on target or transitions from target to target.
3. I personally ignore the sights, even though they will cowitness in the lower third of the window. Moving focus from front sight to target/dot confuses my primitive caveman brain. I can see how it might be faster in presentation if you drill that way and I may start doing that. I feel like first round on target is slightly slower with my setup/method than with irons. But all the rest is faster. Hopefully I will have a timer soon to verify.
4. New shooters invariably have trouble finding the dot.

Packpike make sure your screws are tight and use blue loctite. Mine did that and turns out it was slightly loose and the battery connection was inconsistent.

Thanks for the advice. I'll check it on my next range trip.