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trend towards no BUIS?

Discussion in 'Long Gun Accessories and Optics' started by taliv, Jan 25, 2016.

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  1. taliv

    taliv Moderator Staff Member

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    i've mentioned this a few times in the past when it's come up. I've stopped using BUIS on my rifles a few years ago. So I was interested to see I'm not alone in this decision.

    http://www.defensereview.com/tactic...the-competition-to-combat-crossover-part-iii/

    I said substantially the same thing back in 2012 in a thread here on the same topic. www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=646761

    i am glad to see the 2 rifles pictured in the article that are sporting eotechs still have BUIS though :neener:

    for those of you in or around the army, have you noticed this? or is it isolated to the author's unit?
     
  2. M-Cameron

    M-Cameron member

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    Eh, I like to subscribe to the 2 is 1 and 1 is none philosophy.....

    they are called backups for a reason.....I mean, chances are, a good quality red dot isn't going to fail on you if properly maintained..... But stuff happens....rifles get dropped, parts break, and batteries die.....

    It seems like a lot of piece of mind for the little bit of weight and space they take up.
     
  3. Ohen Cepel

    Ohen Cepel Member

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    I'm an old school guy so want iron sights.

    If I was still on active duty I would make sure my guys had irons on their rifles with the dots. As said, it is very little weight for a lot of gain.
     
  4. taliv

    taliv Moderator Staff Member

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    2 is 1, sure, but an apple and an orange isn't two apples. if you need optics, especially magnified 1-4x or 1-6x ones, as per the article, irons aren't really a backup. wouldn't it be better to have a spare optic on a QD?
     
  5. stoky

    stoky Member

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    Disclaimer; not in or around the army.
    I think that part of the trend may be attributable to the buggy whip profile barrels, that seem to be so popular with those that have convinced themselves that they can't make it up the hill with the extra 0,?? pound that a thicker barrel would add to their burden.
    Some AR aficionados, particularly in the M4gery faction, insist that the BUIS be visible through the optic. At all times.
    I drove myself closer to crazy (a short trip anyway) finding the appropriate height riser in this quest.
     
  6. Bobson

    Bobson Member

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    I'm not in the Army either, and have never used an optic in combat.

    I just saw this article last night. My concern with this is that if you're going to use an optic for a backup (and no BUIS), that backup had better be at least as high quality as your primary, if not better. The author is backing up a VCOG with an EoTech MRDS :uhoh:

    I think if I was gonna do it, maybe have an Aimpoint micro backing up an ACOG or something. Just run a quality QD mount on both optics and have the backup secured in your kit somewhere. As long as you pre-zero both using the same T marks on your rail, the zero should hold even when it's removed and put back, right?

    I'd feel safest having BUIS, but this setup I just described wouldn't be too concerning, given the quality and ruggedness of Aimpoint micros. Assuming the zero would hold/work as I described, ofc. Honestly I don't know if it works that way. Maybe I just made myself look like an idiot. Wouldn't be the first time LOL
     
  7. stoky

    stoky Member

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    That might be a repeatable QD
    as we approach the redundancy requisites of manned space flight :p
     
  8. M-Cameron

    M-Cameron member

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    if you have the space and weight available to carry a spare optic....then yes, that would be the best option.

    however, seeing as optics and red dot sights rarely go down, that may be a bit cumbersome.

    that BUIS wont give you the full capabilities of a red-dot or scope.......but itll at least allow you to have a functional rifle.

    think of it much like a space saver/ donut.......the chance of you needing it is slim, but if you pop a tire, the space saver will at least get you home.....

    now granted you can only travel 50 miles at <50 mph on a space saver, and wont give you the capabilities of a full sized spare.......but a space saver doesnt add a lot of weight and doesnt take up a lot of space....and it will allow you to drive for a while, and get you home until you can replace the tire.
     
  9. Bobson

    Bobson Member

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    ^ Good point IMO, and it brings mission to the forefront, which is important.

    If your mission is primarily in a defensive role, where you're going to a predetermined location and holding down the fort, it makes all the sense in the world to just run a backup optic. This way, you can continue that mission should you drop your rifle or something, and the primary gets damaged. You're carrying your gear, safely and likely unpressured, so there's no reason not to bring a full-functioning backup.

    In contrast, if your mission is something more aggressive and has you venturing out into the unknown, BUIS might make more sense. The space a backup optic will take might not be available, or could be better filled by something else. Meanwhile, the BUIS can still support you in a fight as you complete your goal and later move on toward a green zone.

    Yeah, These examples are heavily geared toward military and might not really apply for most people in everyday situations, but then, most guys in everyday situations don't have life/death and success of a critical mission hinging on the life of their optics.
     
  10. taliv

    taliv Moderator Staff Member

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    if you look at the whole rifle... how much on there is redundant? other than redundant lugs on the bolt, I think a failure pretty much in any other component means you are down. so why are you putting so much emphasis on the sights, when you can still point and shoot if they fail? i'd bet money the failure rate of aimpoints and acogs and even the quality 1-4x and 1-6x optics (notice i omitted the eotech) is lower than the failure rate of the rest of the rifle.

    fwiw, i do carry spare bolt, rings, extractor, firing pin.
     
  11. M-Cameron

    M-Cameron member

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    well your backup to your rifle going down is typically your sidearm....

    however, carrying a few spare parts to mend your rifle is also a great idea.....spare parts are also small and dont weigh much, and you can probably carry all the parts you need in the pistol grip compartment of your rifle (assuming you have one).

    buy back to the sights........what are you losing by having them?.......a few inches of rail space and a couple ounces.

    what do you gain?.....a way to use your rifle should your primary sighting go down.....and it definitely beats point shooting, especially if you need to engage targets past 50yds or so...
     
  12. fireman 9731

    fireman 9731 Member

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    I thought I needed BUIS on my rifle, because that is what the internets told me.

    I ran a red dot with a standard A2 front sight. Lower 1/3 co-witness was cool and the small and light rear Magpul back up sight made some sense because my batteries did die on me.

    Then I switched to a free float tube... Now I had to get a front MBUS to go with my rear one. Then things kind of started to look silly.

    Next, I ditched the red dot and got a 1-3x scope. Backup sights don't work with a scope like they do a red dot. So I removed them and ordered a pair of 45 degree offset sights. Because thats what all the high speed, low drag internet guys had.

    I installed the offset sights. Man they looked cool, and they were somewhat practical in a quick, close up shot situation. But they poked out the side some and weren't really all that cool in reality. So off they came, and now I just have a 1-3x scope with [gasp] no backup sights!

    I couldn't be happier. Rifle is smooth and doesn't have extra things poking out of it. But according to the keyboard commandos I'm in the stone age.

    If I was going into battle with an electronic optic, I wouldn't mind to have a set of BUIS. But I haven't gone to battle and don't plan on going anytime soon.

    By the way, I traded in all of those extra sights for ammo.
     
  13. stoky

    stoky Member

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    Old Clint Smith advice..........and I hope I'm recalling this verbatim:
    A half an hour after the balloon goes up, iron sights will rule the world.
     
  14. cslinger

    cslinger Member

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    Irons take up very little space, don't really weigh anything to write home about nor would they impede carrying a backup optic. So you have a set of ohhh sh$& my optic went down but I need this thing to work NOW or you have them as a lightweight tertiary option if you have time to remove and affix the new optic.

    Point is the ONLY downside I see to BUIS is extra cost but even that doesn't have to be that high.

    Now I am not even high speed enough to be a chairborn commando so I am only looking at it from my own little myopic people don't generally shoot at me kind of way which is the way I like it. :)
     
  15. Casefull

    Casefull Member

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    I agree with the op. It is not hard to hit a man size target at 100yds just looking down the barrel. I think many overthink this thing. Personally I would not want my life depending on a battery operated anything.
     
  16. CraigC
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    CraigC Member

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    Fact is, "IT" happens and often. Look at it statistically. I've had several scopes fail. I had a mid-priced red dot fail recently. I've never had such a failure from a firearm. To me, back up iron sights are insurance. Sure, you might not ever need it but what if you did? I'm sure that most optic manufacturers have enough work to keep a repair department busy.

    Most of us carry a concealed handgun in preparation for an unavoidable violent encounter, the odds of which are extremely low. Do those very, very, very low odds prevent you from carrying?
     
  17. chicharrones

    chicharrones needs more ammo

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    I would be hard for me, unless that man sized target is in water or on dirt that I can walk the shots onto target by watching the strikes. I've done that before, most times the target moves out of the way before it gets hit. :D

    I like iron sights on a gun with optics. Even if it isn't an modern sporting rifle. It's just my preference. :cool:
     
  18. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    If I NEED a gun it's going to be that handgun on my hip or in the nightstand. So why does the AR in the safe need a backup?

    If a modern scope goes TU you probably won't even know it till you get to the bench after missing enough to wonder what's up. At which point not only has the horse gotten out of the proverbial barn but he's lived a full life and died of old age before that barn door gets closed.

    My backup irons for a scope that goes down is simply a different rifle. I would suspect most of us here have that option open to us in spades.

    Eta BUIS this €£*^|?¥¥

    1a5952bc.jpg
     
  19. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    My son's unit deployed to Afghanistan in 2012 (about the time of your original thread) with BUIS on their M4s.

    He's in Korea now. I'll ask him what the units there are using next time he calls.
     
  20. giggitygiggity

    giggitygiggity Member

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    Optics today have advanced a lot from just 5 or 10 years ago. Some optics are tough enough to withstand abuse almost as well as backup iron sights. I still think that even if you have a good optic (Aimpoint, Trijicon, etc) and backup (RMR or other small miniature red dot) that you should have iron sights as well. That way in case your glass breaks or an EMP or something catastrophic destroys your electronic sights, you still have something to fall back on even if it requires a few seconds to detach your primary sight from your rail system. That said, even Marine Corps rifles do not have backup iron sights. Just the ACOGs and front posts.
     
  21. CraigC
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    CraigC Member

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    Not everybody's AR is in the safe. ;)

    If I "need" my AR, then I REALLY "need" it! I need it to work and I need a working sight. So after the Vortex took a dump, I replaced it with an Aimpoint. The flip sights remain and always will.

    A modern scope can go "TU" in a variety of ways. It can fog up, lenses come loose, POI can shift, the reticle can break, you can drop it, fall on it, etc.. The above mentioned Vortex just stopped working. Nothing you can do with a red dot when the light goes out. Just this season my crossbow fell out of my UTV while going up a steep hill. It didn't kill the scope but it killed the quiver. Could've happened with anything and with any result.

    Back up sights may save a day in the field. They may save a hunt that cost several thousand dollars. They may even save your life. The fact that 'some' folks have never had an optic fail means nothing to those who have.
     
  22. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    Let's get realistic here. Short of being a LEO or member of the armed forces the likelihood of you needing an ar to save your life are less than getting struck by ball and regular lightning in the same day
     
  23. chicharrones

    chicharrones needs more ammo

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    You know, looking at those optics on most of those carbines sure are in a different league than anything I get to play with.

    Considering my optic choices are priced about the same as a set of back up sights, then perhaps that is why I feel the need for back up sights. :D
     
  24. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    Not as much experience with AR's as hunting rifles. But most manufacturers stopped putting irons on hunting rifles 20-30 years ago. In my experience with any optic costing $200+ they have been more durable and less likely to fail than iron sights.

    Years ago when optics were fragile I could understand. That is no longer the case, at least with moderate priced and up optics.
     
  25. LiquidTension

    LiquidTension Member

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    As always, mission drives the gear train. If I were in the sandbox where the bullets go both ways, yeah I'd run BUIS. Since I'm not .mil and my department is state-of-the-art circa 1955 (hence, no rifles), I don't run them.

    In none of my personal scenarios does it make sense to run BUIS. In class the worst thing that happens if the dot goes down is you transition to your blaster and fix it after the relay. Even a few ounces can make a difference when doing hundreds of repetitions, so I run as slick as possible to include removing the light, light mount, and unnecessary sights. My primary class gun has an A2 front, Aimpoint micro, and no rear. My backup class gun has no irons and an Aimpoint PRO. My house gun has a Micro and no irons.

    If I pick up the house gun to pop an intruder and there's no dot, there isn't time to worry about flipping irons up anyway and the short distance makes the dot largely unnecessary. The house gun has a 500 lumen Fury on it - as long as the hot part of the beam is centered on the bad guy the rounds will impact there.

    As I said - backups don't make sense for me. For combat or non-retarded LE departments I'd absolutely have them.
     
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