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Experts - how fast can you shoot accurate follow-up shots?

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by Skribs, Sep 21, 2011.

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  1. Skribs

    Skribs Member

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    I am farm from an expert marksman (I can shoot good enough for what I need, but I definitely won't be winning any competitions), so I'm wondering from those that do shoot a lot - how fast can you shoot?

    I ask this from the perspective of an author who is writing an action series, and I want to be able to realistically represent the superb skills of my character. If my numbers are too slow, then he looks inept, and despite my character being an unrealistically awesome person, I don't want the numbers to look too fast.

    So, how fast can you get accurate follow-up shots (and number of follow-up shots) on target?

    EDIT: Forgot to mention, please include the caliber. Obviously .45 shooters will have a different answer than 9mm shooters.
     
  2. 56hawk

    56hawk Member

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    With my compensated .38 Supers I've managed .09 split times for a double tap. Otherwise anywhere from .1 to .2 of a second. Really depends on range and size of the target.
     
  3. GCBurner

    GCBurner Member

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  4. StrawHat

    StrawHat Member

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    As has been posted, it depends on range and targets. Also the firearm. Oh, yeah, and who else shows up to shoot! I was able to win a few competitions with some real slow times and lose some with some balzing fast times.

    I competed with a revolver and was happy to get times under two seconds for six shots and six hits out to 15 yards. Out farther than that and my times slowed down some. 12 shots/hits under 8 seconds were not uncommon. I used a 38 Special and a 45 ACP in competition.

    JM is quick and he has trained for it. He may even be quicker than Ed McGivern but since EM is gone, we'll never know.
     
  5. Chris Rhines

    Chris Rhines Member

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    Shooting into an 8" plate at seven yards, I can hit 0.17-0.18sec splits pretty consistently. My Bill Drill times (6 shots from the holster, open carry, 8" plate at 7 yards) run about 2.0 seconds. That's with a mostly-stock S&W M&P9 Pro.

    0.15 splits are very, very fast for a stock pistol. Less than that would be pretty unbelievable, and I'd have to wonder why your character isn't out representing the US at the IPSC World Shoot... ;)

    -C
     
  6. Lawdawg45

    Lawdawg45 Member

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    For me, it's my .45 colt single action. I carried a wheel gun as a LEO and used a semi auto for competition, but my time in SASS also made me proficient and comfortable with a SA, and while it may be slower than a wheel gun or semi auto, the follow up shot is as accurate as the initial shot. In other words, missing quickly is of no value in a gun fight.;)

    LD
     
  7. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Awesome response! :)

    BullfrogKen and I were playing around one night with his .38 Super Commander and I managed some splits as low as 0.12, but not consistently.
     
  8. Skribs

    Skribs Member

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    Hmmm...I wasn't expecting ALL the responses to be from revolver shooters, although I'm learning that if you are really good, you should be using a more manually-operated firearm.

    Okay, getting more specific: in my book, the character is using a semi-auto, and it's not exactly a competition gun. The specific scenario is 5 shots on 5 targets with a 9mm. He's not really doing this at a competition (I only mentioned competitions up above to say "I wouldn't win one"), but rather at a private range when he's showing off his skills for a new group of people he's working with.

    Thanks for the responses so far, though. While they didn't answer the question in my head, they did answer the one in the OP, and those videos were sure interesting to watch.
     
  9. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Not all the responses are from revolver shooters. .38 Super is an autopistol cartridge. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Super)

    5 shots on 5 targets (at 5-7 yards) with a common 9mm service handgun should be do-able in about 2.5-3.5 seconds for a decent shooter, drawing from the holster.
     
  10. Skribs

    Skribs Member

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    My mistake.
     
  11. David E

    David E Member

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    9mm or .45 doesn't matter, as long as the shooter is properly skilled and practiced, which I presume your hero is.

    Jerry's record times average .14 splits (time between shots) with a revolver.

    There is usually a difference between splits and transition times (time between targets.

    Your hero, if setting up a drill to impress folks, would find one that's fun to watch and plays to his strengths.

    It appears to me right now that you need to add more detail. Why not tell us which 9mm?

    Using your suggested drill, let's add some specifics and say he sets up 5 steel IPSC targets one yard apart edge to edge in a semi-circle, all targets 7 yds away. Using frangible rds, he will double tap each one, reload, give each one a head shot, at the last head shot, someone yells "Four!" he reloads again and does a six shot Bill Drill into target #4

    At signal, he draws his M&P Pro 9mm from a concealable KyTac Counter Attack rig. He engages the right-most target in .68, his split is .14 and he has .22 transitions as he sweeps all the targets. (2.26) He seamlessly reloads in 1.2 and hits all the head shots dead center with .29 splits. (2.36) Another reload at 1.1 before he Bill Drills #4 with .14 splits. (1.66-time "started"at last head shot)

    All hits are in the "A" zone, of course!

    Total time: 6.28

    This level is extremely competent, but not impossible. If you must, make his first shot .75, his splits .16-.17, transitions .27, his reloads 1.4-1.5, his headshot transitions .40. This level is still very good.

    I suggest you go to some USPSA matches and see what some of the Production Division Grandmasters are doing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2011
  12. Skribs

    Skribs Member

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    Thanks, David, that's what I was looking for. I don't want to give too many details while it's still in the works, though :p. That's why I was starting off vague and getting more specific as I needed to. It's not specifically a gun-focused book (it's a sci-fi, so most of the guns used wouldn't be discussed on this board anyway), but when they are using human weapons, I want to show as much accuracy as I can.
     
  13. gunsablazin

    gunsablazin Member

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    My splits run .18-.20 on 7yd Bills Drill, that is about as fast as I can go either with my 1911 in .45 or my Glock 35 .40 with light target loads. That works out to about 5 accurate shots a second. I'm no Jerry Miculek, but I am a master class IDPA shooter.
     
  14. Skribs

    Skribs Member

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    Ironically, I don't think I needed to make this post, as I will be going with the numbers I had in the first draft (which this thread supports).

    Still, I like numbers, so reading about numbers is interesting.
     
  15. Ankeny

    Ankeny Member

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    Pretty much spot on for multiple shots on the same target.

    That is correct. I think transitions on IPSC targets spaced one yard apart edge to edge at a distance of 10 yards from the shooter (such as on an El Pres.) will run .18-.20 for the better shooters. Does that sound about right David and Chris? Here is a link to a middle aged fat guy shooting 3 targets with a .45 1911 with times close to those mentioned. Splits and transitions.
     
  16. DoubleTapDrew

    DoubleTapDrew Member

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  17. chris in va

    chris in va Member

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    Try out your local IDPA match. That will give you plenty of fodder to work with.:D
     
  18. JohnBiltz

    JohnBiltz Member

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    I'd just have him do a standard drill like the El Presedente. There is plenty video and data and articles about it on the internet and for anyone smart on the subject it tells them how good your guy is and lets you dial in how good that is. Its what Coriera did in Monster Hunters, different drill with a shotgun and it worked quite well.
     
  19. ny32182

    ny32182 Member

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    For me (IDPA 9mm MA) I do 7yd Bill drills with the following splits with my SSP gear (G34 very close to stock everything, ~129pf ammo):

    .16 (crazy, but lots of them are in... too fast for optimal scoring however)
    .18 (fast, but more reliable than .16s)
    .20 (quick/reliable)
    .22 (taking your time/guaranteed zero hit)

    The draw is also a key factor of course; I run the whole thing in about 2.4-2.5. My buddy and I went to OH for a class with Vogel last week, spent time running Bill Drills from several distances, and with Production gear he was doing them in about 2.2. The difference was the draw, not the splits. In competition, you "split for show, transition for dough." Vogel is a national/world champion in USPSA and IDPA, and everything I've seen from him so far you will seldom find him splitting faster than .20 or so in competition setting with Production/SSP gear, and often more than that. Getting the hits is more valuable than getting a .16 split.
     
  20. ny32182

    ny32182 Member

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    If your scenario is five shots on five targets you are talking about transitions which will be totally different and unique to the size and spacing of the targets. "Steel Challenge" is a sport that uses that kind of target layout.
     
  21. Maple_City_Woodsman

    Maple_City_Woodsman Member

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    This depends entirely on the gun, and what your definition of 'accurate' is. For me:

    If 'Accurate' means that all rounds hit somewhere on the target at 10 yards, then the answer is about two shots per second with anything up to the power of a 45 Colt.

    If 'Accurate' means that all rounds hit within 3" of each other at 10 yards, then the answer is more like a second per shot with my 45's, a little less with one of my 9mm's, and however fast I feel like it with my 5.7.

    If we are talking about single COM shots on multiple targets, then I usually do it in about 2 seconds per target with my 45's, 1 second per target with a 9mm, and a little less than 1 second with a .22LR or the 5.7, provided the total arch isn't much over 45*.

    But I'm not a competitive shooter.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2011
  22. David E

    David E Member

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    The El Prez doesn't have targets placed edge to edge. The original set-up has them 3 yards apart edge to edge. The current arrangement is ONE yard edge to edge.

    Obviously, the further apart they are, the longer the transition and split.

    Any transition under 1/4 second is pretty swift.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2011
  23. BullfrogKen

    BullfrogKen Moderator Emeritus

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    Yes, that was quite the fun evening. We'll have to do pure speed drills again sometime this Fall.

    Depends on the distance, of course . . .


    At conversation distance, I usually set a pace to run accurate splits on a single target right around .20. Add in multiple targets, depending on the spacing add maybe another .05 to .10 seconds for a transition.


    ^^^^^
    That's a pretty good judge of time right there. I find the same measures bear out for me as well. Except I'm not skilled enough to do it out to 7 yards. 3 yards, most certainly. 4 yards, and I'm pushing and concentrating very hard. Out past four and I'm dropping points or slowing down. That's the way it goes.


    And I'm an IDPA Marksman because I really don't give a crap about the rules and rankings. I compete with a Colt Lightweight Commander in 38 Super.
     
  24. David E

    David E Member

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    I had a .08 at a match once.......once. Even hit the 10 yd target with both shots!
     
  25. Ankeny

    Ankeny Member

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    Trigger bounce or on purpose? :D
     
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