Rubber buck
- Thread starter glummer
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Deanimator
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A home invader isn't going to start out with a rubber bullet or a rubber knife. Why are you?
If he needs shooting, he needs shooting with lead and or copper.
If he needs shooting, he needs shooting with lead and or copper.
If you are at the point where you need a firearm to defend yourself, there's no need to worry about deterrence and rubber bullets, you are shooting to stop an immediate threat.
When police use less-lethal ammunition against bad guys, they have back-up who carry real bullets because less lethal ammo doesn't always work. Do you have any "back-up" shooters?
When police use less-lethal ammunition against bad guys, they have back-up who carry real bullets because less lethal ammo doesn't always work. Do you have any "back-up" shooters?
bigfatdave
Member
Anything worth shooting is worth shooting with real ammo.
You are not doing riot control, you are not shooting to scare an invader away or wound them. In the unlikely scenario of a determined home invader, you are shooting to stop the threat.
If you fear collateral damage from misses (or over-penetration) set up a safe room and determine a few relatively safe lanes of fire ... and make sure everyone in the household knows to stay the heck out of those lanes in an emergency. If there are small children, they may not be reliable to stay out of the lane, but they should be shorter than your invader, and easily identifiable.
Of course, if you have angered a homicidal, dedicated midget ... this advice is worth even less than you paid for it.
You are not doing riot control, you are not shooting to scare an invader away or wound them. In the unlikely scenario of a determined home invader, you are shooting to stop the threat.
If you fear collateral damage from misses (or over-penetration) set up a safe room and determine a few relatively safe lanes of fire ... and make sure everyone in the household knows to stay the heck out of those lanes in an emergency. If there are small children, they may not be reliable to stay out of the lane, but they should be shorter than your invader, and easily identifiable.
Of course, if you have angered a homicidal, dedicated midget ... this advice is worth even less than you paid for it.
JImbothefiveth
Member
Also, if it's a shoot or don't situation, rubber ammunition can still occasionally kill, especially with a brain shot, so I wouldn't use it against someone I don't want to shoot. However, it lacks stopping power, so I wouldn't wwant it if I needed to shoot.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
It is less lethal, not non-lethal.
Even rubber buck-shot may be lethal at close HD ranges.
Hit something hard like a door frame, and they may just as well bounce back and hit you too! A rubber buckshot in the face isn't going to improve your gun fighting skills.
If you are really, truly justified in shooting someone, shoot them!
rc
Even rubber buck-shot may be lethal at close HD ranges.
Hit something hard like a door frame, and they may just as well bounce back and hit you too! A rubber buckshot in the face isn't going to improve your gun fighting skills.
If you are really, truly justified in shooting someone, shoot them!
rc
Badger Arms
Member
A firearm is a deadly weapon. If you load it with rubber buckshot, it is still a deadly weapon. If you point a deadly weapon at somebody and shoot it, you should intend to kill them. This falls under the "treat every gun as if it were loaded" rule as well as, "know your target" rule.
99 times out of a 100, you are shooting a bad guy with rubber and giving him justification to defend himself (albiet he's probably not going to be able to). The 100th time, it will be your grandchild coming in for a "surprise" visit because your absent-minded daughter thought it'd be cute for her to wake her grandpappy up with a kiss.
KNOW YOUR TARGET
...no matter what you're shooting it with.
99 times out of a 100, you are shooting a bad guy with rubber and giving him justification to defend himself (albiet he's probably not going to be able to). The 100th time, it will be your grandchild coming in for a "surprise" visit because your absent-minded daughter thought it'd be cute for her to wake her grandpappy up with a kiss.
KNOW YOUR TARGET
...no matter what you're shooting it with.
Owen Sparks
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It amazes me how many people think that you somehow owe a criminal assailant a "fair" fight.
Badger Arms
Member
Owen Sparks said:
Uh, who said that?
czarjl
Member
In an HD situation every shoot you take must counts. Its totally possible for you to hit the BG with your first round of less lethal then short stoke your gun and jam it. Now your in more trouble if the BG was not stopped. I know that this situation could happen using 00 buck (or what every your HD round of choice is) but in my opinion your odds are better with the first round having the most stopping power possible.
Growing up I was taught: “If you point your gun at something you are planning to kill it. If you shoot at something you are trying to killing it.” Not a very elegant statement but very true to the point.
Less Lethal has its place in the world just not in my HD gun.
Growing up I was taught: “If you point your gun at something you are planning to kill it. If you shoot at something you are trying to killing it.” Not a very elegant statement but very true to the point.
Less Lethal has its place in the world just not in my HD gun.
rbernie
Contributing Member
Exactly. If he doesn't need shootin', just don't pull the trigger. If you don't feel that you can decide WHEN to pull the trigger, you probably ought not have a HD/SD weapon around.
There is no such thing as 'sorta deadly force'. Either you were in fear of death or serious bodily injury and therefore chose to engage in lawful deadly force for self defense, or you were NOT fearful of death or serious bodily injury and the fact that you pulled the trigger will get you jailed and sued.
Pulling the trigger on a shotgun with rubber buck is just as much 'deadly force' as one stoked with lead buckshot.
John Wesley Hardin
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Just remember one thing----It is better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6!!!!If somebody does a home invasion on you..HE WILL KILL YOU!!!
Missing the point
Perhaps I was not clear - I am 99% certain that I WILL hesitate the 1st time I am faced with a home defense situation, both because I will be surprised to actually find an intruder, and because it may not be apparent how dangerous he is. NY does not have Castle Doctrine, so shooting before I see what he's doing is risky, legally.
I'm not talking about zombies_at_the_door; for that I will hole up, and call 911. I'm concerned with my bump-in-the-night gun. Any sound I check out will almost certainly be a falling picture, or the cats knocking over a plant - the kind of alarm that does not justify calling the cops, and which will probably never turn out to be a real intruder. But if it DOES, I WILL be surprised and likely hesitant. Which could be lethal. So I'm looking for a default response that will always be at least somewhat useful. Pepper spray would be nice, except it would likely backfire indoors. Tasers require a limited-mobility target, with light covering, neither of which can be counted on. Rubber buck, or something like it, I theorized, would disrupt a shooter, severely injure or kill a close range attacker, and at least bruise badly an intruder who chose to run. Thus I might feel more free to just shoot 1st, and then shoot again if necessary (lead buck for follow-up shots of course.)
Perhaps I was not clear - I am 99% certain that I WILL hesitate the 1st time I am faced with a home defense situation, both because I will be surprised to actually find an intruder, and because it may not be apparent how dangerous he is. NY does not have Castle Doctrine, so shooting before I see what he's doing is risky, legally.
I'm not talking about zombies_at_the_door; for that I will hole up, and call 911. I'm concerned with my bump-in-the-night gun. Any sound I check out will almost certainly be a falling picture, or the cats knocking over a plant - the kind of alarm that does not justify calling the cops, and which will probably never turn out to be a real intruder. But if it DOES, I WILL be surprised and likely hesitant. Which could be lethal. So I'm looking for a default response that will always be at least somewhat useful. Pepper spray would be nice, except it would likely backfire indoors. Tasers require a limited-mobility target, with light covering, neither of which can be counted on. Rubber buck, or something like it, I theorized, would disrupt a shooter, severely injure or kill a close range attacker, and at least bruise badly an intruder who chose to run. Thus I might feel more free to just shoot 1st, and then shoot again if necessary (lead buck for follow-up shots of course.)
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A home invader isn't going to start out with a rubber bullet or a rubber knife. Why are you?
And he might not have any kind of bullet, or knife, either.
If he needs shooting, he needs shooting with lead and or copper.
How do I know he needs shooting, if I don't take a second to see what he is doing? No Castle Doctrine in my state.
And he might not have any kind of bullet, or knife, either.
If he needs shooting, he needs shooting with lead and or copper.
How do I know he needs shooting, if I don't take a second to see what he is doing? No Castle Doctrine in my state.
glummer,
You have not understood everyone's advice that: 1. If you are justified to shoot, you better use as much gun as possible ie. real bullets/slugs/buckshot; and 2. Rubber is not intended for the application you are describing.
You need to survive the "1st time" before expecting to have a 2nd encounter...
Since you plan to hesitate, what makes you think rubber shot is going to help you make-up for your hesitation?
If you feel that you will hesitate, then sell your gun(s) because you shouldn't be using one for SD/HD. Get a baseball bat and a rottweiler.
You have not understood everyone's advice that: 1. If you are justified to shoot, you better use as much gun as possible ie. real bullets/slugs/buckshot; and 2. Rubber is not intended for the application you are describing.
You need to survive the "1st time" before expecting to have a 2nd encounter...
Since you plan to hesitate, what makes you think rubber shot is going to help you make-up for your hesitation?
If you feel that you will hesitate, then sell your gun(s) because you shouldn't be using one for SD/HD. Get a baseball bat and a rottweiler.
Seriously, I think a better way to address this would be to consider your overall tactics (and load the gun with real ammo).
What lights do you have? Can you turn them on from your end of the house?
Do you have an early warning system like an alarm or dogs? Will something discourage the not-so-determined invader, so that someone who actually confronts you is most likely actually dangerous?
What about flashlights, etc.?
What lights do you have? Can you turn them on from your end of the house?
Do you have an early warning system like an alarm or dogs? Will something discourage the not-so-determined invader, so that someone who actually confronts you is most likely actually dangerous?
What about flashlights, etc.?
If you truly think you'd hesitate, like you say, I'd start out with a "pepper blast" shell or something instead of rubber buck. It might backfire indoors, but I'd say the odds are probably better than the chances of rubber buck bouncing back and hitting you in the face. If you make a bad decision and shoot someone you shouldn't have (I'm guessing this is the reason you'd hesitate), pepper will do a whole lot less damage than rubber buck.
But mainly, get a better mindset. You should be 100% sure of your target before you shoot. Don't mistake taking the time to assess the target and the situation for "hesitation." But once you're positive you need to shoot, then you need to shoot, immediately, and with the best ammo you can get.
It would also be a good idea to just yell from your bedroom (after arming yourself), so that someone could identify themself, if it's someone you forgot you gave a house key to. And, this might sound really horrible, but it would probably be a good idea to not give a house key to any friends or relatives who are both deaf and lacking in common sense.
Other than that, if you hear something real suspicious, your best response is to arm yourself, train the gun on the bedroom door, yell, and call 911 (in that order). For more minor "bump in the night," replace 911 with looking around very cautiously, and if you do see someone, get back to your safe room as quickly and quietly as you can, shoot if they follow you, and call 911 right away if they don't. That goes double in a state without castle doctrine.
Otherwise, if you shoot some guy who was standing there holding your TV in both hands, who turned and ran the instant he saw you (obviously not a threat), you'd be in deep doo doo in a state like NY, no matter what you shot him with, even if it was a spitwad.
But mainly, get a better mindset. You should be 100% sure of your target before you shoot. Don't mistake taking the time to assess the target and the situation for "hesitation." But once you're positive you need to shoot, then you need to shoot, immediately, and with the best ammo you can get.
It would also be a good idea to just yell from your bedroom (after arming yourself), so that someone could identify themself, if it's someone you forgot you gave a house key to. And, this might sound really horrible, but it would probably be a good idea to not give a house key to any friends or relatives who are both deaf and lacking in common sense.
Other than that, if you hear something real suspicious, your best response is to arm yourself, train the gun on the bedroom door, yell, and call 911 (in that order). For more minor "bump in the night," replace 911 with looking around very cautiously, and if you do see someone, get back to your safe room as quickly and quietly as you can, shoot if they follow you, and call 911 right away if they don't. That goes double in a state without castle doctrine.
Otherwise, if you shoot some guy who was standing there holding your TV in both hands, who turned and ran the instant he saw you (obviously not a threat), you'd be in deep doo doo in a state like NY, no matter what you shot him with, even if it was a spitwad.
dfariswheel
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The key point is this: LEGALLY if you were NOT justified in shooting someone, it legally doesn't matter if you shot with a load of 00 lead buckshot, a load of rubber buckshot, or a load of goose feathers.
As far as the law is concerned, you fired a LETHAL WEAPON AT A HUMAN.
If you were not justified in firing, you're in at least some trouble, depending on the circumstances.
If you ARE justified in shooting a firearm at a human, it legally doesn't matter if you bounce some rubber shot off him or blow him in half with a Magnum 3 1/2" load of 00 lead buckshot.
To quote famed US Border Patrolman Bill Jordon: "Like being slightly pregnant, there's no such thing as shooting someone "just a little". If you have to shoot someone, shoot him GOOD".
In most areas, the law considerer's an intruder in your home in the middle of the night to have "punched his own ticket".
In other words, an intruder in a darkened home is simply too dangerous a situation to require a home owner to take insane risks to insure he's a "harmless" criminal.
As far as the law is concerned, you fired a LETHAL WEAPON AT A HUMAN.
If you were not justified in firing, you're in at least some trouble, depending on the circumstances.
If you ARE justified in shooting a firearm at a human, it legally doesn't matter if you bounce some rubber shot off him or blow him in half with a Magnum 3 1/2" load of 00 lead buckshot.
To quote famed US Border Patrolman Bill Jordon: "Like being slightly pregnant, there's no such thing as shooting someone "just a little". If you have to shoot someone, shoot him GOOD".
In most areas, the law considerer's an intruder in your home in the middle of the night to have "punched his own ticket".
In other words, an intruder in a darkened home is simply too dangerous a situation to require a home owner to take insane risks to insure he's a "harmless" criminal.
Call 911 and wait for the police.
I once read that if you shoot someone and are later questioned make sure you say that you meant to shoot them. If you do not than it is an accidental shooting and your home owners insurance policy can be sued by the bad guy or his family.
Now we not only have to worry about people not meaning to kill the bad guy on purpose, we have people killing the bad guy not meaning to. :banghead:
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
glummer,
Can you tell we've done this here a time or two before?
Let me try approaching this a slightly different way. Nothing good can possibly come of loading a home defense shotgun with rubber buckshot.
I don't know your state laws on self defense- that's your job. But no jurisdiction I know of differs from some very basic legal tenets. As has been explained, a shotgun is a lethal weapon, period. If you're morally and legally justified in shooting a person AT ALL WITH ANYTHING, then you're justified in killing. If you AREN'T justified in killing, you aren't justified in shooting ANYTHING out of a shotgun. I know of cases where people have been killed with BLANKS fired in a shotgun- it happened to a LEO not far from here in a training scenario a few years ago.
So with rubber buckshot, you're going to either kill or injure someone you aren't justified under the circumstances in shooting at all with anything. Either way, you're had legally. You're probably going to jail, and likely getting sued for everything you own to boot.
And if you ARE justified in shooting, then you're NOT going to kill- or maybe even not STOP- someone who needed killing- or at least stopping. What happens if that one shot with rubber buckshot is all you can manage to get off, and it fails to stop your attacker?
Do yourself a favor- please go to http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2006/02_StudyDay.htm and study a while. At the very bottom of the thread at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=396584 there's a glossary that will help with this document.
Talk to a good criminal defense attorney in your jurisdiction, and find out for sure what the law regarding self defense is in your jurisdiction. Nothing anyone here says can substitute for your personal knowledge of black-letter law and case law regarding self defense in your jurisdiction. Again, developing this knowledge is your responsibility alone. And you DO NOT want to learn it in the courtroom sitting at the defendant's table.
Best wishes, and Stay Safe,
lpl
Can you tell we've done this here a time or two before?
Let me try approaching this a slightly different way. Nothing good can possibly come of loading a home defense shotgun with rubber buckshot.
I don't know your state laws on self defense- that's your job. But no jurisdiction I know of differs from some very basic legal tenets. As has been explained, a shotgun is a lethal weapon, period. If you're morally and legally justified in shooting a person AT ALL WITH ANYTHING, then you're justified in killing. If you AREN'T justified in killing, you aren't justified in shooting ANYTHING out of a shotgun. I know of cases where people have been killed with BLANKS fired in a shotgun- it happened to a LEO not far from here in a training scenario a few years ago.
So with rubber buckshot, you're going to either kill or injure someone you aren't justified under the circumstances in shooting at all with anything. Either way, you're had legally. You're probably going to jail, and likely getting sued for everything you own to boot.
And if you ARE justified in shooting, then you're NOT going to kill- or maybe even not STOP- someone who needed killing- or at least stopping. What happens if that one shot with rubber buckshot is all you can manage to get off, and it fails to stop your attacker?
Do yourself a favor- please go to http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2006/02_StudyDay.htm and study a while. At the very bottom of the thread at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=396584 there's a glossary that will help with this document.
Talk to a good criminal defense attorney in your jurisdiction, and find out for sure what the law regarding self defense is in your jurisdiction. Nothing anyone here says can substitute for your personal knowledge of black-letter law and case law regarding self defense in your jurisdiction. Again, developing this knowledge is your responsibility alone. And you DO NOT want to learn it in the courtroom sitting at the defendant's table.
Best wishes, and Stay Safe,
lpl
Bonsai Doug
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- Dec 28, 2008
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- 23
Glummer, I'm in NY State also. While there is no Castle Doctrine, I did come across the following.
Wonder if it would cover your six in a home invasion scenario?
NY State Penal Law says (in part): A person in possession or control of any premises [...]
may use deadly physical force in order to prevent or terminate the commission or
attempted commission of [...] a burglary or attempted burglary [...].
Wonder if it would cover your six in a home invasion scenario?
NY State Penal Law says (in part): A person in possession or control of any premises [...]
may use deadly physical force in order to prevent or terminate the commission or
attempted commission of [...] a burglary or attempted burglary [...].
inSight-NEO
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I can see where you might be going with this, but...I can think of only one person who would approve of such loads for HD use: your local mortician.
Seriously though, as has been mentioned before, "less lethal" ammo generally means "non lethal." Unless you merely want to piss someone off or to possibly buy just a second or two's worth of hesitation before the enraged BG proceeds with the potential slaughter, dont use such rounds for HD. This might work for riot type situations or to possibly cause "submission," but for stopping an individual in his tracks (particularly one who is armed and dangerous)....not worth the risk and not nearly effective enough.
If you ever need to bear arms against another human being, in this case for HD purposes, make sure you are bearing something that will stop the individual in his/her tracks. The law probably wont discriminate much in terms of what was fired, but rather, it will concentrate on why it was fired in the first place. Lets say, for instance, that you end up mortally wounding someone with these rounds (without intent) or at least permanently debilitating them, you are still faced with a potential prosecution or in the very least, potential civil damages. This, of course, assumes that you are still alive to even attend the court proceedings (harsh, but true).
If you are concerned or convinced that you would be hesitant to defend your life (or the lives of loved ones) by using a weapon with the intent to stop (and possibly kill) any violent assailant within your home, forget about what you are loading into your weapon. In fact, forget about weapons at all as you are just setting yourself up for massive tragedy. If you are not truly ready to fire in an HD situation, should it occur, chances are you wont fire when/if it actually becomes necessary.
If nothing else, regarding you concerns, make sure that your range time completely involves techniques (smart ones) that you would use given an HD encounter. Probably the most important one I can think of off the top of my head is always keep your finger off the trigger and outside of the trigger guard until you are absolutely ready to fire. In addition, consider keeping the safety engaged until, again, you absolutely need to fire. With this you at least will build, within your mind and muscle memory, some resistance to unintentional fire. If you have the habit of walking around with your finger on the trigger and safety off, well...it stands to reason that if you are "spooked," you are more likely to fire by reflex.
Training your mind and body can go a long way when it comes to the "appropriate" use of any weapon.
Seriously though, as has been mentioned before, "less lethal" ammo generally means "non lethal." Unless you merely want to piss someone off or to possibly buy just a second or two's worth of hesitation before the enraged BG proceeds with the potential slaughter, dont use such rounds for HD. This might work for riot type situations or to possibly cause "submission," but for stopping an individual in his tracks (particularly one who is armed and dangerous)....not worth the risk and not nearly effective enough.
If you ever need to bear arms against another human being, in this case for HD purposes, make sure you are bearing something that will stop the individual in his/her tracks. The law probably wont discriminate much in terms of what was fired, but rather, it will concentrate on why it was fired in the first place. Lets say, for instance, that you end up mortally wounding someone with these rounds (without intent) or at least permanently debilitating them, you are still faced with a potential prosecution or in the very least, potential civil damages. This, of course, assumes that you are still alive to even attend the court proceedings (harsh, but true).
If you are concerned or convinced that you would be hesitant to defend your life (or the lives of loved ones) by using a weapon with the intent to stop (and possibly kill) any violent assailant within your home, forget about what you are loading into your weapon. In fact, forget about weapons at all as you are just setting yourself up for massive tragedy. If you are not truly ready to fire in an HD situation, should it occur, chances are you wont fire when/if it actually becomes necessary.
If nothing else, regarding you concerns, make sure that your range time completely involves techniques (smart ones) that you would use given an HD encounter. Probably the most important one I can think of off the top of my head is always keep your finger off the trigger and outside of the trigger guard until you are absolutely ready to fire. In addition, consider keeping the safety engaged until, again, you absolutely need to fire. With this you at least will build, within your mind and muscle memory, some resistance to unintentional fire. If you have the habit of walking around with your finger on the trigger and safety off, well...it stands to reason that if you are "spooked," you are more likely to fire by reflex.
Training your mind and body can go a long way when it comes to the "appropriate" use of any weapon.
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