Ruger GP-100 Pawl / Extractor Issue

[Greg All Calibers]

will try this again...

The trigger on my GP-100 had some internal dragging during the last 10% of trigger travel (furthest back position). And with the lighter Wolff trigger spring, the trigger would not always return on it's own, depending which of the 6 cylinders it was on.

I did a careful inspection and noticed the pawl was moving TOO FAR UP on the ratchet/extractor ring grooves causing the trigger to be heldback in the furthest position. So I worked the pawl over and smoothed out the extractor grooves (slightly!) and now they engage with no problem.

I have since tried a handful of new pawls, and every one of them cause the trigger to hang back, unless I work them over. Pretty strange !

Question:
- have any of you ever experienced the pawl and extractor grooves not mating properly which caused the trigger to hold back?
- are the pawl's 'handfit' at the factory?
- are pawl's typically made in slightly different lengths to keep them from sticking?

 

[tomthel]

Fitting

The pawl (or S&W calls it the hand) is fit to the gun. Sometimes the ratchet on the extractor also needs some work. I don't know about Ruger but there are wider hands for S&W's that allow for wear. As to trigger return other factors can also influence the return besides getting caught on the ratchet. Some on the Ruger forum maintain you need to use the 10 LB Wolff trigger return spring. My GP which is tuned does just fine with the 8 LB so they do work.

 

[Greg All Calibers]

tomthel:
your input is helpful. Some more of the story if you or anyone else has comments....

I had some end-shake so Ruger tightened up the cylinder/crane assy. Now it has perfect lock-up and about a .003 spacing from cylinder to forcing cone. Fine.

However, somehow during their process to fix the endshake and spacing, perhaps they stretched the crane, not sure.... the gun came back and the pawl (hand) now 'grabs' the extractor ratchet during the trigger-full-back position.

I have fixed it by machining the hand shorter.

Why would fixing the end-shake have changed how the hand and rachet mate, causing it to stick? is there anyone else out there who has seen a GP-100 that seems to be sensitive to hands (pawls)?

Closer inspection shows that when the trigger is pulled all the way back, the hand is pushing the bottom of the cylinder ratchet (correct functioning). However, it goes too far... as it continues upwards, is slides just a little to the right. This results in the *top left* of the hand jammed against the rachet, with the hand then pushed against the right part of the long rectangular hole that the hand comes out of (in the frame).

So the hand is held tight as it over-shot the ratchet, slid to the right on the ratchet, and was pushed against the right side of the hole the hand comes out of.

 

[Brasso]

I am no expert on the GP100, but I did have a problem on one of mine where the pawl would sometimes slip and not catch the ratchet. I ordered a new pawl and that one was too long. It would not allow the hammer to be fully cocked. As the cylinder rotates the pawl actually slips out of the ratchet. It does however have to come out far enough to clear the window in the frame or it will not come up far enough. If the cylinder was set back too far it may be jamming the pawl and not allowing it to slide out far enough to come fully up and slip out of the ratchet at the top of its stroke. I fixed the problem with mine by taking some metal off the inside left tip of the pawl allowing it to more easily slip out of the ratchet as it reached the top of its travel. Ruger will usually fix these types of problems for free though if you feel like paying the freight. Most of the problems with the gp100 stem from a mis fit pawl.

 

[tomthel]

There are a couple of ways to solve endshake. The easier is to use small steel shims between the cylinder and crane. Either would increase the barrel/cylinder gap. Another way would be to fit a new extractor with more metal on the end where the ratchets are that mates with the recoil shield. This is usually machined somewhat on the rear as this controls headspace. If the new one was thicker end to end this would close the barrel/cylinder gap and open headspace. Usually, headspace is set first and then the cylinder is shimmed to take out endshake and then barrel/cylinder gap set (this may entail setting the barrel back a turn and recutting the forcing cone and resetting barrel/cylinder gap. I do not know what Ruger did but this is food for thought. I would check your headspace a see if it is large or larger than before. Now, if the extractor was changed out and one was in a hurry maybe he or she never checked for operation. Anyhow, if you knew both barrel/cylinder gap and headspace before sending it it may give a lead as to what they did. If the extractor/ratchet was changed then the hand or pawl would probably need to be refit or replaced and fitted and checked for operation. The pawl is not a drop in part unless one is awful lucky.
I don't know what headspace should be on a Ruger but most S&W's are .060-.066".

 

[Greg All Calibers]

Very interesting.

Brasso:
So proper operation is when the cylinder rotates the pawl and it actually *slips* out of the ratchet a the top of the stroke? I thought it the pawl was held tight, pushing up on the ratchet for good lockup.

tomthel:
I called Ruger and they reviewed their records, they did not add shims (I also checked this morning to be sure). They stretched the crane (I had specifically asked not to add shims, so they did as I wanted). I also verified they put a new ratchet in the gun. I never considered that.

Do you think it's the reduced headspace from the ratched change-out that caused this?

 

[tomthel]

Normally, the pawl pushes on the ratchet to make the cylinder turn. There is a flat on the ratchet at the end so when the cylinder locks up the pawl then slides up on the side of the ratchet to prevent further motion and somewhat lock the cylinder in position against the cylinder bolt. If the pawl went up further (past the flat) then the cylinder bolt would be the only thing holding the cylinder. The bottom portion of the top of the pawl is rounded off so should return back with the trigger release. In looking at one of my Rugers with the trigger all the way back the tip of the pawl is at the top of the flat mentioned on the ratchet. Slowly releasing the trigger the pawl returns straight down along the flat of the ratchet and the engages a angled surface on the back of the ratchet that causes the pawl to retract back into the frame. There is a certain range of length the pawl needs to be. If too long as noted it will jam in the top of the slot in the recoil shield of the frame (especially in single action where the hammer and trigger move further back). If too short the cylinder will not time correctly when using double action slowly. The pressure of holding the cylinder normally causes the pawl to be in contact with the right hand side of the slot in the frame. The only revolvers that I am aware of that jam the pawl or hand against the ratchet in the firing position are the old style Colts such as the Python. They actually have 2 tips on the hand and these hold the cylinder tightly to prevent turning. Ruger, S&W and others hold the cylinder somewhat less tightly by sliding up on the flat on the side.

I don't know if the plunger and springs could have been mixed up. There is one for the cylinder bolt, too. Evidently, they are not interchangeable and problems could occur perhaps binding the pawl on its return stroke. Also, the S shaped portion of the pawl under the tip of the hand could be polished with crocus cloth to allow a freer return of the pawl.

 

[Greg All Calibers]

This was very helpful. Thank you.