Ruger LCP 380 auto

[btg3]

My favorite thing is all the Kel-Tec owners saying, "I love my Kel-Tec. I've never had a failure after 2000 rounds. People shouldn't bash the P3AT until they've actually owned one." And then at the end of their post, they say they're going to get the Ruger. Come again?

Just a fellow gun nut who either is committed to have one of everything or at least likes to try different guns and sell what he doesn't want to keep. If I had the money, I do the same.
Also, I don't think I would be bashing a Glock 19 if I bought a SW M&P, or the other way around.

 

[45auto]

It's reported that Ruger sold over 80,000 the first week.

"Sold" meaning orders. I'd say they are doing pretty good so far.

 

[Caipirinha]

Also, I don't think I would be bashing a Glock 19 if I bought a SW M&P, or the other way around.

It sure seems to be that way to some people. Fortunately for me I never swore an oath of fealty to a particular brand or design and can freely enjoy them all.

 

[ElrodCod]

Why is everyone upset about Ruger copying this disign? It's what Ruger does best.

MKI, II, & III..............inspired by Japanese Nambu

Ruger single action revolvers..............Colt

Mini-14............................M14

Model77.............................Mauser 98

Over & under and side by side
double barrel shotguns......................take your pick

No. 1 & 3 singleshot rifle.................Farquarson

And now this little thing.................So What?

 

[Brassman]

I have a P11 and a P3AT and they both work just fine, but I will have this Ruger LCP. I will because I am afflicted with an addiction. I'm sick and I need help, but refuse it. I want one of everything I see that goes boom!
Sound familiar to some of you other guys?

You know, I could easily carry my M&P 340 in one pocket and have the P3AT in the other pocket and put the LCP in my boot just to be safe......maybe I really do NEED one!

 

[Brad Johnson]

Almost every gun is a copy, in some iteration, of the original black powder cannons. They had barrels and fired a projectile, so people who make guns now, any guns, are all ripoff artists, right?

C'mon people...

Of course there will be similarities. Short of completely reinventing of the firearm there will always be similarities from gun to gun in a given size/type. It is inherent in the basic mechanics of the tool and the anatomy of the user. You can only configure a gun so many ways and still keep it useable when by those of us who prefer to remain human-shaped.

There are going to be similarities in ANY striker-fired semi-auto handgun, pocket or otherwise. They will all have a frame, a trigger, a striker, a recoil spring, and (probably) a Browning-style cam lock. Chances are they will have the same basic parts, all about the same size and in the same basic locations. There are only so many ways you can rearrange the parts inside a frame and have them work properly.

I looked at the exploded view earlier in this thread. They are two different guns. Period. Short of a few unavoidable similarities the parts are unique enough in appearance that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the difference. Does it appear that Ruger took a cue from Kel-Tec? Sure. But no more so than Kel-Tec took cues from the semi-auto handguns that came before. Evolution of funtion is part of the mechanical world, so get over it.

However, to see the difference you do actually have to look, not take a quick glimpse followed by a knee-jerk reaction based on outward appearances. (That is, unless you like being in the same category as a bed-wetting anti who judges things solely by how you think they look and not what they actually are. ).

Brad

 

[yhtomit]

The Ford Escape has a similar size, shape, feature list, intended use and market, but it IS NOT a part for part direct copy of the RAV4, down to every nut, bolt and screw, with a different hood ornament.

Right -- that would be the Mazda Tribute

Interesting to see the passions stirred up here over the "rip-off" of Kel-Tec by Ruger. There are a lot of 1911s out there; is it just that there was a "reasonable interval" between 1911 and now? Or because the 1911 was commoditized by virtue of being made by so many manufacturers early on (under license)?

Ruger's gun is similar, no doubt, but it's certainly not an *exact* copy -- seems to me they thought they could distinguish their design enough to be worth selling

timothy

 

[clemsonu0219]

Only thing I can say is that even in their wildest dreams...Ruger's customer service could NEVER match Kel-Tecs. Say what you want, but it's the same gun besides: trigger pull, slide lock, Ruger is slightly shorter and weights slightly more. I'll take Kel-Tec because of their customer service.

 

[velvalco]

KT's customer service has had more practice

 

[rhubarb]

When Ruger copies the Rohrbaugh and sells it for $300, I'll be happy.

 

[cowssurf]

Does Ruger really have wild dreams about matching Kel-Tec's customer service? Or is it rather that Kel-Tec has wild dreams about matching Ruger's quality, and negating their need for such lauded customer service? Kel-Tec should concentrate on the quality of their guns. Then they wouldn't have to make each gun twice. I don't want to buy a gun that needs customer service. I want to buy a gun that is reliable. All my guns are purchased with the solemn notion that I might have to use them in defense of myself or my family. What the hell good does fantastic customer service do me when I'm standing in front of an ex-con with my broken squirt gun of a Kel-Tec pistol? Will he be impressed? Will he say, "Say is that a Kel-Tec? They've got fantastic customer service" right before he cuts my throat and then my wife's? I've had two Rugers and neither needs customer service. They're tough as nails. And every time you use Kel-Tec's lauded customer service, you have to shell out the dough to overnight it to them. That get's annoyingly expensive. I like to just pay for the gun once. And how is Ruger's customer service bad? They don't have an official lifetime warranty because of the annoyance of the various state regulations on warranty/guarantee policies. Instead they say, "Screw it, we'll just fix any of our guns that people have a problem with. It won't be that many anyways." I really don't hear people complaining about Ruger's customer service. I guess that's because it's good and few people need it anyways. I haven't needed it.

 

[bharen]

Hmmm... I've owned three Kel-Tec firearms (Sub2000, P11 and a P3AT). One thing they can't be accused of being is cheap. I always found the parts to be well made and well fitted and the guns work as advertised. In fact, a number of 'big name' gun manufacturers could learn a thing or two from Kel-Tec about plastics engineering and molding.

Kel-Tec is aiming for a price point. One of the things that gives in this equation is metal finishes. Machining marks and minimalist blue jobs are evident, but where it counts - the engagement surfaces - I've found Kel-Tec's to be as well finished and fitted as many other more expensive pistols.

The P3AT is a tricky combination of size and power, and I suspect the design is right at the edge of reliability. Doesn't matter - in my hands the package works and works well.

Would I buy another? Yes. In fact, I was planning to purchase another one when the Ruger announcement came out. Now I'm waiting. Kel-Tec has done a fine job with the P3AT. Ruger may do it just a bit better. I'm willing to wait and see.

 

[cowssurf]

Bharen, you said, "Kel-Tec has done a fine job with the P3AT. Ruger may do it just a bit better." You also said in your hands "the package works and works well." You are a Kel-Tec owner and admirer, but you're looking for something more. What are some of the specific improvements you are looking for? What is not up to snuff with the P3AT that has made you pause before buying another?

 

[MAKster]

I think if you commissioned 100 gun designers to create a new pistol in 380, with polymer frame, less than x ounces, x length, etc. its almost guaranteed they would end up with designs that were very similar. Within those criteria there is very little room to diverge, so it's no surprise the Ruger is similar in appearance and function to the Kel-tec.

 

[Kilgor]

This may be nitpicking but the P3AT is hardly a three year old design. It is for all purposes a beefed up and recalibered P32. Just making it a 380 doesn't make it a new design. The point being then the design was introduced somewhere around 1995. That makes it a 12 year old design. I'm sure all patents are expired and its prefectly resonable to allow competition. Where you out there stomping your feet when every one copied Para-Ordnance and started making double stack 1911s? Ted Szabo was alive when everone copied his design. JMB may have been dead but Colt was still actively producing 1911s. If its foul for Ruger to make a version of the P3AT then it was foul for Kimber, Springfield, and the rest to make them also. JMB didn't own Colt so whether he was alive or not is irrelevant.

Design patents have a 15 year life. It's possible that Kelgren sat on the patent for 5 years before he put product on the market, but not likely. It's also possible that he licensed the patents to Ruger.

I did a quick, rudimentary patent search and found only a foldable bayonet patent to George Kellgren in 1997. Kel-Tec was mentioned in other patents, but I didn't find any others that they owned. It would seem that Kel-Tec does not patent their designs.

 

[jon_in_wv]

Fine, if we want to get nitpicky.

I went to the US patent Office website and did a search for George Kellgren. He owns NO patents on the P32/P3AT design. The time frame and patent argument is irrelevant. You can't infringe on a patent that doesn't exist.

 

[alamo]

It would seem that Kel-Tec does not patent their designs.

I think it's likely because generally speaking, you can only patent something that is new, unique and innovative. KT's are locked breech pistols. The design has been around for many, many years. I don't think you can patent something because it is smaller and lighter in weight.

 

[strat81]

a number of 'big name' gun manufacturers could learn a thing or two from Kel-Tec about plastics engineering and molding.

Not to sound combative, but every P3AT and P32 I've handled (new, at gun shows) looked like the frame was carved by a blind man with a dull knife and a block of plastic.

 

[buschpilot]

Ruger LCP380

I purchased a Ruger LCP 380 and love it. I added it to my ccw and qualified with is shooting very fast at three required distances in Nevada. The gun is very ergonomic to hold, and I don't have a small hand. It kicks less than I expected. I took it to a large gun store here in Vegas and they drooled over it. they still don't have any. I got mine through J&G Sales in Prescott, AZ. They got two and sold one, I got the other. This truly is a great little pocket gun. If you contact J&G ask for Jake. Buschpilot

 

[jocko]

velvaco "hit nail on the head"

Yup, if its one thing you hear them bragging about on the kt fanboy board is Kt's excellent service. I am here to admit to that to. I had to send my 3 kt's (2 380 and 1 32) back a total of 17 times and kt warrantied them every time. Now mind you they never fixed them or I would not have had to send them back 17 times. So indeed velvaco is dead right. Kt has far more experience in warranty work than Ruger does--humm wonder why that is??
The reports that I have got back from lcp owners are just what I would have expected from Ruger THEY WORK Fit and finish on the lcp compared to the kt is also like nite and day. Wehave read that on this board many times also. Kt had an awsome design with the 380, just poor quality and everyone on the "other" board in the past would just say, " well what do u expect for $275. No one else could do it for that money any better. Guess we know now that price really doesn't have anything to do with quality. You can make a quality $1000 gun or you can make a POS $1000 gun. One will keep u in business the other well , time will tell.

 

[thunder173]

New to the thread here folks, ....but I'd say if Ruger can improve it,...let it be so....I own several handguns, including a Keltec P3AT and a P-11, I carry one or the other almost daily, and as I feel the need. I often carry a Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 mag for the same reason,...as I feel the need! I own and still shoot a few that are likely as old or older than some of you, and have owned many other handguns over the years, some that "went away" over time,... some were good ones,...that I truly regret having let go, and some were bad ones that I am glad I ditched,....but they all have their purpose, their strengths,...and their limitations. I love reading the point for points and banter some of you throw. Keep up the good work! Keep smiling!!

 

[Lobotomy Boy]

Apparantly some guy over at the Sig forum broke a firing pin in an LCP after dry firing it 75 times. I guess the moral of that story is invest a couple of bucks in a snap cap or two.

 

[DPris]

A more accurate moral would be: Don't try to make the LCP into something it was never intended to be.
Denis

 

[lvcat2004]

I believe that imitation is form of flattery, and I don't see a big problem with Ruger copying the P3AT design, Ruger is kind of known for doing that...

BUT LET'S BE CLEAR for those who claim they are completely different guns.....please

Ruger hardly put any new engineering into this...most small/big parts are nearly exact copy of those on P3AT in shape/size, this was no coincidence, but an intentional imitation because they knew that P3AT works.

Shameful?? Yes....but as a consumer, if it works, cheap, legal imitation, then it's all good. But I'm not sure why everyone's so excited because it's a RUGER.....i've owned a few Rugers and they are not that stellar. We shall wait for some more reports...hopefully not too many Kaboom reports...

 

[jocko]

dry fire--no no

My friend who owns a lcp states that it is stated right in the Ruger manual DO NOT DRY FIRE or damge will occur. I can only pass on what he says is in the manual, as I have not be fortunate enough yet to be able to even find on sitting anywhere..