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Ruger Mini-14 2-Shot Okay... BATF!

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Badger Arms, Jan 30, 2004.

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  1. Badger Arms

    Badger Arms Member

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    After about six weeks, I got a response from the BATFE on converting a rifle to fire a shot with the pull and another with the release of a trigger, effectively doubling the rate-of-fire and halving the utility of the weapon... but that's all academic. Here is the text of my letter:
    ... so here is what they said. I'm going to block out my information on the scan:

    [​IMG]
     

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  2. ny32182

    ny32182 Member

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    Wow... never heard that before. How would you go about doing that, and why haven't people been doing it if its legal?
     
  3. keederdag

    keederdag Member

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    WOW! Very cool, but tread carefully man!
     
  4. Wildalaska

    Wildalaska member

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    Guarantee ya once ya do that mod, and ATF finds out about it, you will get indicted after they make it go full auto (if it doesnt go full auto on its won),

    Make sure ya lkeep that letter your lawyer will need it.

    WildbadideaAlaska
     
  5. Gewehr98

    Gewehr98 Member

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    One answer to the question...

    Well, what if you don't want that second shot to happen after the trigger pull? Could be a liability, depending on the situation. Do you keep the trigger pulled back while you try to open the bolt, preventing the second round from going off?

    Skeet shotgunners have had release triggers for years, but it is just one shot for the release, not the pull.

    The 2X trigger was discussed at TFL:

    http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=39686

    Wildwhat'shisnamethisweekAlaska makes a very good point. If the design allows 2x shots, one each on the pull and release, it wouldn't be hard to make it go burp with some tinkering.

    Which is why I really don't mind the steel receiver block in my preban Colt AR variant. At least I know the ATF technology folks aren't going to convert it to full auto any time soon if it were to be submitted as evidence of my evil intentions. ;)
     
  6. Edward429451

    Edward429451 member

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    Au contraire' doubting Thomas!;)

    This is true. I've owned multiple copies of this device for years. First one was bought at a gunshow (loophole:D ) and came with a substantially exact copy of said BATF letter that he posted. I've misfiled the letter for ages, I know its here somewhere. Thanks for the post so I can print out a couple copies to keep with the devices, JIC I run into a letter of the lawman at the range.:uhoh:

    The device is ingeniously simple and requires no modification to the rifle whatsoever. It's a drop in device and can be taken in/out in about 2 minutes. It's so simple that I made several working copies. If you can sharpen a knife on a whetstone, you could make one of these.

    In operation it is 100% reliable and works exactly as described. I hardly ever use mine anymore, it's not conducive to marksmanship. But it's loads of fun and a great way to test magazine springs if ya know what I mean.

    SHTF? Sure. Press the folding Mini into LMG role with a bi-pod, ninety rounder, and a "double-tap"... :cool:

    Just remember...If you forget that 2nd round's coming...It IS an AD...;)
     
  7. Edward429451

    Edward429451 member

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    No. You have to let it go. I've held the 2nd one off before to see if I could but it'd be too dangerous to do anything other than let it go and then safety.
     
  8. Badger Arms

    Badger Arms Member

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    Well, because nobody knew it was legal. Now a little "Nya-nya-nay" explaining why you probably haven't heard it on this board previously. When I posted the instructions, they were edited by the moderators for fear that I was spreading instructions on how to do something illegal. Well, now, I'll post them again with my letter in hand.

    MAKE SURE THE GUN IS UNLOADED FIRST, of course. First, field-strip your Mini-14 per the instruction manual. With the trigger group in your hand, examine the area in the photo below. Now, take a staple from a standard paper stapler. Bend or cut one leg until it falls off. Insert the staple so that the long part is underneath the secondary sear circled in the photo below. Push the sear hard against the staple so that it crushes it down into its curved channel. Now, reassemble and dry-fire. While you continue to hold down on the trigger, retract and release the slide. When you release the trigger, the hammer should fall again.

    Now, of course, this isn't the best way to do it, but it's legal, cheap, and works. If you do it right, you can get the staple to stay in there pretty good and not fall out on a long range session, so I've been told.

    To address what was said about it's utility... I agree. You have to fire that second shot, no matter what. This is certainly not safe without a little mental fortitude, but it's not intended to be safe, it's a down-and-dirty way of getting rapid fire and burning up ammo. Before anybody else jumps in and questions my sanity, I'm not suggesting that anybody do this. It's dangerous and can cause injury or death if you aren't careful. I'm not going to assume any responsibility for anybody's stupid actions. DON'T DO IT. If you are stupid enough to try it, you must make a mental shift in your thinking. When you pull the trigger, RELEASE IT. Duh. It's that simple. What you end up with is a 'double-tap' every time. If you work the trigger the same way each time, you can probably get pretty good with it.

    People also question the safety and utility of the disconnector on the Ithaca 37. While the Ithaca is somewhat safer, you still must follow the simple procedure of RELEASING THE TRIGGER IMMEDIATELY AFTER YOU FIRE to keep

    [​IMG]
     

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  9. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

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    Either the "bumper" or the "clip" sounds like a controlled slam fire. The key is that the bolt must lock before the hammer falls. Per se, the design of the Mini-14 is such that unless the bolt is locked, the firing pin's forward movement is inhibited by the little "bridge" or "web" that you see inside the receiver - just like the M-1 Garand and M-14.
     
  10. Badger Arms

    Badger Arms Member

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    This isn't a slam fire or bump fire. This simply uses the secondary sear that catches the hammer with the trigger pulled as a primary sear for the second shot. It isn't intended to fire when the gun goes into battery. So long as you hold the trigger back, the gun will NOT fire. When you release the trigger, it WILL fire a second shot assuming there is a live round in the chamber. Bump fire is significantly different in that you are utilizing the recoil of the rifle to reset the trigger. Slam firing is when the gun goes of as a result of the bolt closing. This condition is also unsafe.

    What are you refering to with a 'bumper?' There is no bumper involved. The paper clip does not completely disable the secondary sear. It disables one and alters another function of the secondary sear. The first feature is the second stage of the trigger. When you pull the trigger on a modified weapon, you won't get the second stage, this is a smooth single-stage trigger now. The second disabled feature is that of dropping the hammer to the primary sear notch. Instead, this feature is replaced with a complete release of the hammer. The Garand-style action is perfect for this modification. You CANNOT fire the gun out of battery. The worst thing that will happen is either the staple falls out or the hammer falls on the firing pin when it's out-of-batter. If the hammer falls on the firing pin before it's in battery, that force is absorbed and not transfered to the firing pin. Safe in that respect.
     
  11. Edward429451

    Edward429451 member

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    Exactly. I found that staples meant for the carpetguys electric stapleguns work best. Reform the staple into an "L" or a "7" and trim one end slightly and the other leg more for a "7". The short leg keeps it from falling into the weapon, and may even get a little hammer battered but this is ok.

    The critical dimension is the thickness of the long leg which goes into the crack. Stoning the thickness down to between .018 to .021 is where I found my reliability.
     
  12. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

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    Well then Badger Arms, I stand corrected. Thank you Sir!
     
  13. Badger Arms

    Badger Arms Member

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    After suggesting this mod to an acquaintance of mine, he went out and tried it. Used a simple staple as I suggested. He said he only had 40 rounds of ammo and a 30-round clip but he was able to burn up the ammo at a rate he estimated at 6 rounds a second. I feel he could have gone higher, but he only had enough ammo to get the feel of it, not explore. It's my guess that the rate of fire could easilly approach 500 or 600 rpm by rapid and rhythmic manipulation of the trigger. Once you get the rhythm of the gun down, it should come easy. The staple did not dislodge and he had the characteristic smirk that you only get when firing machineguns, big-boar handguns, and grenade launchers! :D
     
  14. artherd

    artherd member

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    Funny that it's legal. This is MUCH more dangerous (in my opinion) than a full-auto.

    This by definition almost creates NDs.

    While (most) full-autos can easially be controled to fire 1, 2, 3, or more round bursts.
     
  15. Edward429451

    Edward429451 member

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    How could it be more dangerous than a full auto, or any gun for that matter? The 2nd shot can only come after you have complied with the four rules and have made the decision to fire the first round. Only an idiot would try and hold the second shot from going off.

    It's a wonderfully legal special purpose device for those who can't afford full autos. Useful in Waco type scenarios.;)
     
  16. willyjixx

    willyjixx Member

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    not safe. i think its a bad idea!

    save the touble an get a hell fire. what if your on a range an they vall a cease fire after you fire one wait to get on target? now your stuck there trying to explain why you cant let go the rifle cuz it will fire again.

    if i was the RO an you had that i would throw your butt so far off that range you coundt find your way back.

    once again. not safe! bad idea
     
  17. Frohickey

    Frohickey Member

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    I second WildItsABadIdeaAlaska's post.

    Instead of coming up with a Ruger Mini-14 trigger system that fires one shot on pulling the trigger, and one shot on releasing the trigger...

    the better idea is to...

    abolish the BATFE. :D :D :D
     
  18. spacemanspiff

    spacemanspiff Senior Member

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    it sounds like it would be a fun thing to have, only for range use though.
     
  19. KaceCoyote

    KaceCoyote Member

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    I think this is a -bad- idea. I'm afriad Antis will make the case that all Semi-automatics can be easily modifed into fully automatic.
     
  20. Edward429451

    Edward429451 member

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    I agree it's not safe, it'd be on a gun. That doesn't mean that it would not be useful in a very narrowly defined niche. I think maybe you might have the wrong idea about this device and it's (only) useful intended application, which is a full blown firefight.

    It's not a device to take to a range and target shoot with. Especially a range with a RO. Legal or not he'll not understand it, fear it, and probably ask you to leave. At least have the ATF paper and a conversation with the RO about it before you use it at his range.

    You are asking for trouble if you'd ever try to hold off the second shot from going, don't do it. Go into the first shot with the mindset that you're going to make two shots and you will be ok.

    I don't keep my 'double tap' in my Mini, because I feel that it's not conducive to marksmanship. But I've owned Hellfire triggers also and consider the double tap to be superior device. Hellfire's have you doing unnatural manual of arms to operate it, like jiggling the rifle back & forth or pushing your trigger finger forward. The double tap is totally natural and much more conducive to accurate shooting than any Hellfire type device. I've tested the rifle's safety with it installed, bumped the butt and all that and in my mind is as safe as the rifle and/or operator is. I've ran many multiple hundreds of rounds through the rifle with the device in place and the only unsafe thing I've been able to discerne about it is in the mind of the operator of the rifle. If you're not ready for the second shot, it's scary but will still go downrange unless you're being an idiot and trying to hold off the second shot (then you knew it was in there), or are the kind of unsafe person who would not clear a weapon before turning around on the line?

    RO's? Here's how I'd do that.

    ...Bang"CEASE(Bang)FIRE"
    Clear weapon, place on table.."Clear on the left, sir"
    IOW, let the second round go at the same instant you hear his voice.

    It is NOT safe. It's on a gun. It takes a little getting used to is all. Don't hedge any of the four rules and it's no different than any other gun. I like doing 4 round 'bursts' with it. It's efficient, special purpose and I'm saving mine for a rainy day. Pray to God I never "need" it.
     
  21. George Hill

    George Hill Member

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    I don't like this concept at all.
     
  22. KaceCoyote

    KaceCoyote Member

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    I would emplore you -not- to do this. It is going to fan the flames of every anti out there. The last thing we need is to is have anti's screaming that we need to ban Mini-14s!
     
  23. Third_Rail

    Third_Rail Member

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    Indeed, getting semi automatic firearms banned would be beyond bad. Still this is knowledge to keep, for possible future use.
     
  24. LAR-15

    LAR-15 Member

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    You guys do know that the VPC claimed S-A fire IS MORE DANGEROUS than F-A fire?

    Yep they did.
     
  25. Third_Rail

    Third_Rail Member

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    Hey, maybe we can trade all of our SA rifles out for FA rifles, afterall, they're less dangerous. What's that, VPC? You want BOTH? Nah, nevermind.
     
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