Ruger P97 Malfunctioning

[cox3497]

I really need some help ladies and gents. If this story hadn't happened to me personally, I would be inclined to believe that the author is exaggerating. . .yeah, it's that bad! A couple years ago, my brother bought a P97 pistol for himself (based upon the glowing recommendations found in many gun magazines), only to discover that it malfuntioned in every possible manner. It would jam, fail to feed, fail to eject, and the slide would not lock back when the pistol had expended all cartridges. He wasn't too familiar with guns, so he couldn't fix it himself. He sent it back to Ruger once, and it arrived back in same poor working order. He sent it back a second time and they still did not fix it. Finally, he called Ruger so exasperated that he didn't know what to do, and they sent him a new P97.
Horror of all horrors , this model didn't work either -- although it did not fail in as many ways as the last one. The main failure of this new gun was that it would not fully feed the first few cartridges (or the very last) of the magazine when you attempt to manually rack the slide.

Seeing as how he just bought a like new condition Beretta 92 on my recommendation that also is jamming like mad (and we are not limp-wristing either gun, by the way), I traded him my GP-100 for his P97 to see if I could get it working.

I read a bunch of stuff on rugerforum.com, and learned that if I bent the extractor, I could help the rounds to feed better. So. . . I bent the extractor to less of an angle (making it more strait), and the rounds do indeed feed now. I have no jams and no feeding issues. I was wondering, however, will that extractor that I bent retain its modified form, or will it bend more and possibly work itself loose upon firing?

Also, for some reason, the pistol is now sometimes locking its slide back in the middle of the magazine (when there are still unexpended rounds remainging), and failing to lock back when all rounds have been fired. Please give me some insight into this situation as I have done all I can figure possible. Thanks to all!

cox3497

 

[Dienekes]

I bought a P97 about two years ago and fought that thing for almost 18 months. Its main problem was that it would pop rounds right out of the magazine, and sometimes out of the gun or into the feedway slightly crosswise and fail to feed. I documented it meticulously for 1200 rounds and talked to the factory a number of times about it. We changed springs, extractors, magazines, and other stuff to no avail. (I have a Ruger armorer's ticket from 1990, which covered the P85s, so I know the P series guns fairly well.)

Ruger finally agreed to take the gun back and destroy it, and replace it with a NIB one. When it came I verified the serial number, put it back in the box and sold it on consignment with all the extras I already had.

It was a double shame because I actually liked the feel and performance of the gun when it worked. I also own stock in the company and even when I "won" I lost.

I have had excellent luck with Ruger's SA and DA revolvers. But you couldn't give me a P series pistol.

 

[Jeff]

P97s and Beretta 92s both jamming? Those are two very storied guns in the reliability department. That's what I call bad luck.

Stick to wheelies?

 

[cox3497]

Dienekes:

Wow! That's some pretty disheartening news! I agree wholeheartedly with you about the gun, however, in that I kind of like the style and enjoy shooting the pistol. It would be a real shame if I had to get rid of it due to current problems. I called Ruger and I have a new extractor on the way -- to see if swapping out this part has any effect. But, yeah, I know, that is probably the first part you tried to replace. It seemed yesterday that bending the extractor had a profound impact upon the jamming/misfeeding apsect of the pistol in that it no longer has these problems. The problem now, however, that I have no idea how to solve, is the locking back of the slide when not appropriate and failure to lock back when needed (at end of magazine).

I'm thinking that perhaps if I could find some of the old style P90 7-round magazines I might be able to cure the problem. The have a different spring and follower that seems to cause less problems with some P97s that have a tendency towards malfunction. What do you think of this idea? The only problem, though, is that they are no longer produced and sold new -- it might be tough finding one. I'm not quite sure what to do.

Jeff:

That is exactly what I've said to him! He must have the worst luck possible when it comes to buying pistols. I think he might be turning, as you say, to more of a wheel-gun afficionado. He sent the beretta in to the factory to have them check it out. Hopefully they have a better track record fixing their pistols that Ruger has demonstrated with him with his P97.

Thanks for the responses guys, and please keep the ideas coming!

cox3497

 

[psychophipps]

Well, there is occasionally going to be a bum gun coming from any factory. There was a rather lengthly thread about a Glock 26(?) with some serious issues right out of the box which is pretty rare from what I hear.
I've heard that Ruger is pretty good in the customer service department from some sources and totally crap from other sources like yourself. Pretty much a 50/50 split so I'm basically praying that my P97DC keeps on ticking along with good accuracy and 100% reliability for years to come.

Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

 

[Dienekes]

Among other things, I tried using the P90 magazine followers and springs in the P97. Also tried using magazine followers from GI 1911 mags as well.

You name it, we tried it. I have a very thick folder on the whole sad affair, complete with round counts, descriptions of the exact nature of malfunctions, charts and graphs.

You can still see faint traces of tear stains on some pages. But I am all better now.

 

[Ken Rainey]

It's possible that your slide stop is getting bumped by the ammunition causing it to lock the slide open before it's empty...take the slide off, replace slide stop, insert a loaded magazine slowly and see if the nose of the bullet touches the notch....if it does, call Ruger and ask for a new slide stop, you might get lucky and it fit just right ... if you have the patience and files and sandpaper to fix it, then dress and polish the notch just enough to let the ammo clear. The face of the stop that is held by the spring loaded bearing could need some attention too....or you may want to get a good smith to work on it if thats what the problem is.....I'd ask for another one even if you did get this one "fixed"..... Ammunition with a different nose profile may or may not clear the notch depending on how much the notch sticks into the mag well.

 

[cox3497]

Psychophipps,

Yeah. . .I know. All I've ever heard about Ruger repairs is that they are one of the most helpful and efficient in the industry, yet our experience with this pistol has not been as positive. Best of luck that yours keeps on ticking!

Dienekes,

Well, that just pops my bubble! No, really, thanks for the reply. I was hoping that magazine thing might hold some promise, but maybe I'm wishfully thinking. I know what those tears are like -- I'm glad you've recovered from the experience. There might be hope for me yet! ha ha

Ken Rainey,

Thanks for the insight! I did just as you suggested, and it seems that these rounds (230 grain Winchester JHP) do indeed contact the slide stop. It seems that it might even be enough to cause the slide stop to lock the slide back. I really appreciate your thoughts on that. The only thing I'm wondering now, though, is that if that is the case, what is the explanation for the slide failing to lock back at the end of the magazine??? I'm so puzzled here. Any further insight you or anyone else has is GREATLY appreciated. Thanks a lot!

cox3497

 

[Ken Rainey]

Hmmmm, ....... Did you do the same thing with an empty magazine to see if the follower will push up the slide stop?? What kind of follower is in the magazine...if it's a split metal follower (like a GI styled 1911)you can just bend it over a little with a flat screw driver blade......

 

[cox3497]

Ken,

Thanks again for the response. What you mentioned is what is confusing me. If I cycle the pistol manually with an empty magazine, the slide will catch -- but not, for some reason, when the pistol is cycling. That's a good point you mention about bending the follower, but the P97 follower is one piece -- not split. Anyhow, I might just have to give the Ruger repair office one more shot. I appreciate all the ideas you've sent my way. Gave me a lot more insight into the workings of the pistol than I had before.

cox3497

 

[Ken Rainey]

If it will lock open when you manually cycle the slide (slower than recoil) but not during recoil (faster) then it sounds like your mag spring is too weak to get the follower to push up the slide stop in time. You haven't increased the recoil spring weight have you?? That would enhance this problem as well as feeding problems. If all is as come from the factory, then I'd look for an extra power mag spring - probably from Wolff Gun Springs. This is presuming that the mag is clean and not gummed up which would cause this problem also.

If nothing else, see if Ruger will check it out on their nickel.....they may have upgraded mags and/or springs and/or tolerances since it was manufactured and would upgrade your pistol to newer specs....you could give them a call with your model and serial number to check or possibly email them. Most people hate to ship their firearms around due to the expense and you may be able to remedy it yourself for less than the cost of shipping.....however, Ruger may provide you with newer parts for the asking when you tell them your problem.....they might at least trade your mags for newer ones....slide stop too ??? It's worth a call or email to see and if they don't, then order a new set of mag springs from Wolff and see what that does for ya...

 

[cox3497]

Ken,

Man, are you a gunsmith or something? You have some really great ideas when it comes to fixing malfunctioning guns! I appreciate your help. Well, I have talked with Ruger, and they have sent me two new parts: an extractor and a slide stop. The wierdest things happen, though, when I fix any one problem with this gun. Whenever one problem gets fixed, another arises. I put the new extractor in, and now the slide stop issue has been resolved -- I have NO idea why. What has now occurred, however, is that the gun is ejecting the spent brass in my face!!! I'm using the cheap winchester white box ammo and am wondering if it is underpowered or something? The Winchester JHPs seem to eject with much more force. If I wanted to fire the cheap white box stuff, does this mean I have to buy a less powerful recoil spring to eject cartridges farther? Also, for some unkown reason, one cartridge out of each magazine will fail to feed due to forward movement of the cartridge in the magazine prior to feeding. This also was not a problem before! The JHPs also don't seem to jam as much as the cheaper white box. This gun has me a bit confused to say the least! I might have to send it off to Ruger after all???

 

[Ken Rainey]

I've learned a little about pistol functioning over the years and I'm just sharing my thoughts based on my experience, hopefully it'll help....... not having the pistol in front of me makes this harder ....

Everything you do affects something else but the slide stop locking open during firing or failing to lock open when empty is an issue unto itself....anyway, if it's working now, it could just be masking itself with a particular magazine or such ....you want to analyze the whole feeding and ejecting cycle and make sure that it's as it should be...take your time and look very carefully at the whole process...

It may be that the new extractor is holding the empty brass too tight and not letting it roll out from under it when the empty hits the ejector thus making the empty get hit by the slide and knocked in your face - Are the case mouths dented?? Hotter ammo will slam the empty into the ejector harder and get the empty brass out better because of the extra force but this is not normal...regular ol hardball should cycle just fine. Polishing a bevel on the bottom front corner of the extractor helps this in 1911s and should here too...also polish a slight bevel on the bottom edge of the extractor where the bullet base slides up...I don't know about the hooks depth on your pistol...You can look up extractor tuning (for 1911s) in a sticky in the gunsmithing section and see if it would apply to your pistol. Just a little means a lot !

Reading the spent brass will tell you whats going on during the feeding and ejecting .... look for gouge marks in the rim and on the bevel coming out of the groove where the front of the extractor may be pushing into the brass...I still think you need stronger mag springs or your mag lips are not in spec or both. If you have deformed places in the rim where the extractor is, that means that the extractor is behind the bullet and has to jump over the rim - usually causing a failure to go completely into battery - weak mag springs let the bullet loose and it gets ahead of the extractor. An extractor that is too tight will cause failure to feed problems by not letting the rim of the brass slide up into place - this is where the polishing helps (600 or 800 grit wet or dry paper on the edge of a popsicle stick is good) I would think especially so with pistols with external extractors tensioned by springs mounted in the slide. Try sliding a round up the breechface and see if goes under the extractor smoothly. The breech face should be smooth also...it may show some tool marks but it should be smooth...a little polishing with some of that same sand paper on a popsicle stick will slick'er right up.

Take the recoil spring assembly out and reassemble the pistol...insert a loaded magazine-BE CAREFUL & KEEP YOUR FINGER AWAY FROM THE TRIGGER -and cycle the slide by hand...you should be able to feed a round into battery by minimal pressure from your thumb....this works on properly set up 1911s anyway.....I've not tried it on a P97.

As I said, it's hard to diagnose without seeing it but I think you can figure it out if you take your time and look at the whole process....and, if not, then you can always send it to Ruger !

Keep us informed .....

 

[cox3497]

Well, I went out and fired the pistol today to check out the things you mentioned. My first observation was that none of the brass display any of the markings you mentioned for diagnosis of the problem -- even the 1-2 rounds per magazine that flew back into my forehead. My second observation was that of the couple magazines I fired, I had no jams -- this is significant since yesterday I had at least one per magazine. I'm wondering if it just took a bit for the new extractor to "settle in", as dumb as that sounds??

I do believe that the slide lockback issue was solved with the new extractor. I did not have that problem until I bent the old extractor to feed the old feeding problem. I did disassemble the pistol as you mentioned, and reassembled sans the recoil spring assembly, and the round fed very easily. The round also didn't seem to be too tightly held against the breech face either. That being said, do you still think I should polish the bottom corner and edge of extractor anyway? I'm a bit reticent to do this as I seemed to have screwed up the last one I modified (causing the slide lock-back issue).

I was very happy to see that the gun had ceased jamming today, however, I don't have much use for a gun that expends its brass cases in my face -- It doesn't help the concentration. Other than possibly polishing the extractor, what else might I do?? Maybe I just need to stick with more suped up ammunition??

I realize that this is pretty tough without you seeing the gun, but anything that you have to offer by way of advice is much appreciated!!

 

[Ken Rainey]

If the bottom corner is sharp, I'd polish it off to a slight bevel....other than that, the ejector face can be angled to help the brass get out at a different angle.....

Is the recoil spring stock?

 

[pablo45]

You are right i wouldn't believe it.This the first i ever heard about the p97 ever messing up. I had it's replacement the p345 and that was a p.o.s. I for the most part like Ruger alot and i don't know what it is about there .45's that is just causing everyone headaches. I just sold the .45 and kept the 9 and .40's sorry this is happening. For you brother tell him to only use factory Beretta magazines. I have one that came with aftermarket military magazines and it jammed all the time. Then i used the factory mag's, they work great not one miss fire or jam yet.Good luck partner

 

[cox3497]

Ken,

The recoil spring is still stock. I took a look at the extractor and, though it is slightly beveled, I might give it a bit more of a polishing. If that doesn't work, then I guess I'll take the file/sandpaper to the ejector and try to angle it? We'll see if this works -- (fingers crossed ). Thanks again.

Pablo45,

I had never really heard about the P97 having issues either until I started asking people about mine. Seems that people either love or despicably hate this particular pistol. I've also heard some, like you, voice the fact that Ruger hasn't improved upon their problems with the new design. As far as my brother's Beretta, he had several springs changed on it and we're hoping it functions well now (he hasn't yet checked). He was using the factory mags when he had the problems, but I'll make sure to tell him what you said concerning only factory mags in the future!

Thanks, all, for the advice. I'll keep ya posted!

cox3497

 

[Ken Rainey]

Look under gunsmithing and repairs and then go to the consolidated 1911 clinic and look under trouble shooting...good to read it all, but there is a couple of paragraphs that address brass hitting your face that tell you how to tune the ejector for directional purposes....A LITTLE DOES A LOT , so take it easy.

 

[cox3497]

Thanks Ken! I'm going to go do just that. Hope you can enjoy the rest of your weekend that I haven't used up! ha ha

cox3497

 

[JohnKSa]

I had a P97 that was unquestionably the least reliable Ruger I have ever owned.

It was extremely prone to limp-wristing--something I had never encountered before shooting this gun. It was ok with a firm grip, but loosen up a little and watch it jam. Attempting to shoot bullseye one-handed with a loose grip was a totally worthless endeavor. Too bad, it was quite accurate enough...