Run in at Wal-Mart

[Mainsail]

I agree. Geography plays a large part in this debate. First, geography segregates us by law (Arizona vs. Kentucky), then by population density (rural vs. city).

There are always exceptions to the rule though, like those of us who open carry in densely populated (and very liberal) urban cities like Seattle, Bellevue, and Tacoma. The little grief we get comes not from those fabled ‘alarmed soccer moms’, but from a few police officers who prefer ‘out of sight – out of mind’ when it comes to firearms carry.

It always surprises me that gun owners would find open carry objectionable. They constantly cite the same tired and completely disproven theories about it damaging an image or the supposed tactical ‘surprise factor’. The majority of them come from states or locals where open carry is either tacitly or explicitly illegal, or they simply haven’t (or are afraid to) try it. Absolutely nothing we do as gun owners can set a better image for all of us than to demonstrate to the public, like those at Wal-Mart, that we’re friendly responsible citizens and the firearms on our belts don’t change anything about that.

 

[Coyote Hunter]

Sage of Seattle,

I humbly agree with your right to disagree. I am not young and in good shape. I am a retired PO with a messed up back and a bum ankle. I stated my opinion based on some real world experience facts..

1. As a PO, with a weapon in open carry, during a struggle someone will try to grab your gun. I can't count the times i've had to fight with one hand while clamping down my gun with the other. One can never assume some drugged out nut won't see an opportunity to target you for your gun. (I'm talking about unexpected assualts you didn't see coming.)

2. Yes, I agree with upholding your rights, I have the right to OC or CCW here in Kentucky (in certain locations, Louisville and Lexington are places you can't because of ordinances), I just shoose to CCW when I feel it nessessary.

3. I have been involved in a shooting resulting in the death of another. It's never ever what you think it will be. There is such a responsibility connected with carrying a gun, I just want the less experienced to see both sides. The gun that will most likely kill you is the one you didn't see.

But that is just my humble opinion, and we all have one

CH

 

[JesseL]

I agree. Geography plays a large part in this debate. First, geography segregates us by law (Arizona vs. Kentucky), then by population density (rural vs. city).

I think regional social mores play a big part too. Prescott isn't exactly rural anymore and Phoenix of course is very urban, but open carry still attracts much less negative attention in Arizona than it seems to in other states where OC is every bit as legal. Maybe it's the fact that we're less removed from our days as a frontier territory than other states?

I just love this quote from Jeff Cooper:

Strange at it may seem to our over-civilized friends throughout the world, it still warms our heart to see pistols worn openly in the check lines of supermarkets in Prescott. Sad to say most of the exemplars may properly be characterized as geezers, but then Prescott has always qualified as a geezer town - that is one reason why we moved here.

I've still got a month before I'm 30. Has open carry made me a geezer before my time?

 

[moga]

The guy was mis-informed, both on the actual law and on company policy. Get the store number and the manager's name and call their corporate office. Explain what happened and ask that they politely remind that manager of what the policy is.

+1

Us Georgians in metro Atlanta area have had our share of trouble in the area Home Depot and Lowe's while OC. Without fail, corporate has been very responsive to customers complaints of being accosted by ill informed management asking guests to leave b/c of OC.

One guy got a sweet deal on the item he originally went to Home Depot to buy, a refridgerator, after corporate put him in touch directly with the regional manager. He also was given a written apology and a promise that all local stores would receive a memorandum on the subject.

 

[coloradokevin]

I think regional social mores play a big part too. Prescott isn't exactly rural anymore and Phoenix of course is very urban, but open carry still attracts much less negative attention in Arizona than it seems to in other states where OC is every bit as legal. Maybe it's the fact that we're less removed from our days as a frontier territory than other states?

I suppose that plays a role too... Despite Colorado being a part of the "wild west", things have changed here.

We have had a huge influx of Californians in the past decade, and I don't think the change has been for the better... Cultural opinions seem to be changing in this state (hopefully we can hold on to CO and not become CA).

 

[altitude_19]

I hear ya Colorado. Thankfully, I make it a point to live in places that are so blatently inhosipitable, that they are, in and of themselves, yuppie repelant.

 

[Ltlabner]

If somebody wants to open carry (and it's legal to do so) by all means knock yourself out.

Just don't get your shorts in a wad when people question you. It shouldn't be a supprise that (1) people woln't know the law (2) will freak out over the weapon (3) will give them liscence to go all anti on you. Not saying we should give in to avoid a freakout, just that you shouldn't be shocked and insulted when it happens.

It's sorta like a woman who wears very prevocative clothing and then is insulted when a man hits on her.

On some level, and this is only my opinion, if someone open carrys just to be a defiant, "in your face" tool, then that does more harm than good IMO.

For me, CCW is the way to go. JMO.

 

[JesseL]

We have had a huge influx of Californians in the past decade, and I don't think the change has been for the better... Cultural opinions seem to be changing in this state (hopefully we can hold on to CO and not become CA).

We've got 'em here too, in spades. I suppose we're blessed not having so many ski resorts though.

Doin' my best to dig in my heels against the tide of California.

 

[teknoid]

2. Yes, I agree with upholding your rights, I have the right to OC or CCW here in Kentucky (in certain locations, Louisville and Lexington are places you can't because of ordinances), I just shoose to CCW when I feel it nessessary.

Coyote Hunter, Hate to burst your bubble, but KY has a preemption law. Louisville and Lexington are legal for open carry, just like the rest of the state. You probably have a better chance of being hassled, though.

State Constitution: Bill of Rights, Section I

All men are, by nature, free and equal, and have certain inherent and inalienable rights, among which may be reckoned: First: The right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties. Seventh: The right to bear arms in defense of themselves and of the State, subject to the power of the General Assembly to enact laws to prevent persons from carrying concealed weapons.

Minimum Age to OC: 18

Preemption: Complete State Preemption of All Firearm Laws


65.870
Local firearms control ordinances prohibited.
No city, county or urban-county government may occupy any part of the field of
regulation of the transfer, ownership, possession, carrying or transportation of firearms,
ammunition, or components of firearms or combination thereof.
Effective: July 13, 1984
History: Created 1984 Ky. Acts ch. 42, sec. 1, effective July 13, 1984.

 

[teknoid]

I agree. Geography plays a large part in this debate. First, geography segregates us by law (Arizona vs. Kentucky), then by population density (rural vs. city).

The similarity in the laws of KY and AZ might surprise you. Now, if you had moved that line a little bit to the east, you'd be closer to right.

 

[partyharty]

While I agree that you may get questions and what not for oc'ing I do believe that this is simply because others are not aware of the law. By OC you are helping to educate them. One of the reasons it is scary to the sheep is simply that it is not "normal" for them to see a non-officer carrying. If this became "normal" (or at the very least more normal) then there would be a lot less problems associated with it. So more people carrying openly would actually help those who are unaware out.

Another thing is (without asking) how would someone not know that you were one of the various flavors of off duty LEO's. Around here I see people carrying (openly) from time to time and I simply assume they are LEO's of some sort. I simply do not ask and they don't offer to tell me otherwise.

Now as for the police, they should be aware of what they are sworn to enforce. In this case the officer was aware of the law and simply offered his opinion. As with all opinions, everyone has them, and you can either take it or leave it.

Now with that said I do not have the ability to open carry. With the various factors in my life at the moment (current law in my area, where I work, what I do, school, etc) I can't really CC much less OC.

But if I could I would.

 

[Coolmojo]

I worked at a walmart for a few years here in Missouri and we had a few very regular customers that open carried. One in particular was a fat Mexican with a very nice 1911.

One day his daughter was with him and I began to wondered if he had a enough firepower for the task.

 

[TexasSkyhawk]

I reminded the good officer he was not there to dole out advice, but to determine the veracity of the manager's claims (I was pushing my luck, but only because of frustration at being held up by a department store manager who thought he was a lawyer and a LEO on a power trip).

You're lucky.

I woulda hauled your butt in and sorted it all out while you were cooling your smart mouth in a holding cell.

And if I were the Wal-Mart manager, I would've filed criminal trespass charges against you and made it clear you were not to ever darken our doorstep again.

Congratulations.

This is EXACTLY the kind of attitude and community relations we need from "my rights come first" gun owners if we want an even TOUGHER road ahead. Thank you VERY much.

We covered "open carry" laws in our academy at Quantico. Guess what? There's a little catch in there that deals with "inciting panic or fear" if you carry openely. Translation: You may win the battle (open carry) but lose the war (inciting fear/panic/riot).

Think yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre.

Yeah, I'd love to be able to carry openly without having to have a badge right next to the holstered gun. But if I learned ANYTHING in over a decade of undercover work from coast to coast, it was that carrying concealed was almost ALWAYS to everyone's advantage.

Sheeeeeesh. . .

Jeff

 

[Old Dog]

And so another thread on open-carry demonstrates yet again just how divisive this issue is, even among the pro-RKBA community.

 

[WayneConrad]

We covered "open carry" laws in our academy at Quantico. Guess what? There's a little catch in there that deals with "inciting panic or fear" if you carry openely. Translation: You may win the battle (open carry) but lose the war (inciting fear/panic/riot).

Jeff, Is this a federal law, or a Wyoming state law? altitude_19 is in Wyoming.

You must have had a pretty hard day. Your tone and language are pretty harsh.

 

[JesseL]

And so another thread on open-carry demonstrates yet again just how divisive this issue is, even among the pro-RKBA community.

I'm danged if I can figure out why though. One side enjoys the option to carry in whatever manner they please. The other side enjoys telling everyone exactly how they should or shouldn't carry.

 

[JesseL]

I woulda hauled your ass in and sorted it all out while you were cooling your smart mouth in a holding cell.

Nice attitude from a peace officer. Haul someone in for having the nerve to do and say what's perfectly legal.

And if I were the Wal-Mart manager, I would've filed criminal trespass charges against you and made it clear you were not to ever darken our doorstep again.

I'd enjoy hearing what Wal-Mart corporate headquarters would have to say to you after that. Violating corporate policy. Lying to police (that's what it would take to have altitude_19 arrested in the circumstances described, as he was not asked to leave). Harassing customers. Bad juju.

This is EXACTLY the kind of attitude and community relations we need from "my rights come first" gun owners.

I agree. Or was that sarcasm? My rights do come first. That's what right means. Certainly ahead of what some badge heavy police officer thinks the law ought to be.

We covered "open carry" laws in our academy at Quantico. Guess what? There's a little catch in there that deals with "inciting panic or fear" if you carry openely.

Guess what? "Inciting panic or fear" doesn't generally apply to someone legally carrying a holstered firearm.

Yeah, I'd love to be able to carry openly without having to have a badge right next to the holstered gun. But if I learned ANYTHING in over a decade of undercover work from coast to coast, it was that carrying concealed was almost ALWAYS to everyone's advantage.

That's fine for you. I'm glad I have the right to make my own choice for me.

Sheeeeeesh. . .

Indeed.

 

[TexasSkyhawk]

Sigh.

Sorry, Wayne--and anyone/everyone else.

It HAS been a hard day, but reading posts where people display such blatant "me first" and to heck with what others think attitudes tends to chap me.

Let me try and calm down and take a few deep breaths. (I already edited the "a" word and changed it to the "b" word--my pastor DOES read this forum. I don't need any additional grief from him come this Sunday.)

In a perfect world, we could carry open. No questions asked. It's not a perfect world. In fact, even in the old "wild west days," more towns than not required "guns be checked at the door."

Why?

Because too many people got a beer or three or a bottle of whiskey and cards and could not exercise good judgement. Our "problems" originated way before we ever did."

I'm looking at this from a cop's viewpoint--or trying to. I was a federal cop; only thing I normally interacted with the locals on was drug-related matters. BUT, 3:00 a.m., Wal-Mart, guy comes strolling with open carry, skeleton crew, normally they're putting up the truck and are already tired and stressed.

Manager talks to Sergeant Open-Carry and mistakenly explains policy and/or law. Sergeant Open-Carry acts like the "A" word and gets police called. Police don't like calls to Wal-Mart at 3:00 a.m. because some yahoo strolled in with a gun AND is giving the store manager a hard time.

How does ANYTHING Sergeant Open-Carry did or how he represented himself help gun owners or our image?

I'll guarantee you that Wal-Mart has more clout with Wyoming and Cheyenne elected officials than Sergeant Open-Carry. IF the local Wal-Mart wanted to get whizzy about it, I would venture a bet that they could coordinate with OTHER Cheyenne area businesses and the Cheyenne CoC and get a local ordinance passed prohibiting open carry in their places of business.

The night manager at Wal-Mart could explain what happened to the Store Manager who might just petition Bentonville to allow them to pass or enact their OWN policy in response to Sergeant Open-Carry's gracious, professional, mature conduct.

In other words, Sergeant Open-Carry might've won the battle, but could very well add another stone to jepoardizing the war. In the military, his conduct is what we used to call "out of line." And if he is in the military, then I'm doubly disgusted at his behavior.

Jeff

 

[John4me05]

Here in VA you may carry openly.. Although the management has the right ask you to leave if they dont like it... If you dont comply you could have a charge coming to you...

 

[moga]

You're lucky.

I woulda hauled your ass in and sorted it all out while you were cooling your smart mouth in a holding cell.

And if I were the Wal-Mart manager, I would've filed criminal trespass charges against you and made it clear you were not to ever darken our doorstep again.

Congratulations.

This is EXACTLY the kind of attitude and community relations we need from "my rights come first" gun owners if we want an even TOUGHER road ahead. Thank you VERY much.

Haul him into the station for pointing out a fact of the matter that you don't personally care for? Take a person into custody for not even a minor infraction of the law? Why, because you can? This is a lovely attitude to have from someone that is supposed to serve and protect. Your words fill me with pride to know that in America, no one is above or below the law. Thank you VERY much.

Congratulations. You sound like a bully with a badge.

The difference between open carry and yelling fire in a theater is open carry is NOT forbidden by law in WY. Inducing panic by exercising the second amendment while doing about one's lawful business? There is something truly farked up with that analysis. You would act to suppress a person's basic rights to placate some hoplophobe's hysteria? Are you sure your not an anti?

Attitude_19, rock on brother. I don't have a problem with anyone who partakes in the freedoms that the Constitution affords us, nothwithstanding Soccer Moms or Robocops. A freedom not exercised is a freedom that's lost forever.

BTW, I have never, nor do I intend, to open carry. Yet, it is perfectly legal in Georgia. Just my personal choice.

 

[JesseL]

Sorry, Wayne--and anyone/everyone else.

It HAS been a hard day, but reading posts where people display such blatant "me first" and to heck with what others think attitudes tends to chap me.

Understood.

In a perfect world, we could carry open. No questions asked. It's not a perfect world. In fact, even in the old "wild west days," more towns than not required "guns be checked at the door."

Why?

Because too many people got a beer or three or a bottle of whiskey and cards and could not exercise good judgement. Our "problems" originated way before we ever did."

Doesn't that apply equally to open carry or ccw?

I'll guarantee you that Wal-Mart has more clout with Wyoming and Cheyenne elected officials than Sergeant Open-Carry. IF the local Wal-Mart wanted to get whizzy about it, I would venture a bet that they could coordinate with OTHER Cheyenne area businesses and the Cheyenne CoC and get a local ordinance passed prohibiting open carry in their places of business.

Fortunately Wyoming has full state preemption for firearms laws, and Wal-Mart corporate has absolutely no problem with legal open carry.

I fully understand your concerns and objections, but I also think that this country needs more citizens that are willing to make a stink when their rights aren't respected. Civil rights are under constant siege and the surest way to lose them is to fail to defend them.

 

[LAK Supply]

You're lucky.

I woulda hauled your butt in and sorted it all out while you were cooling your smart mouth in a holding cell.

And if I were the Wal-Mart manager, I would've filed criminal trespass charges against you and made it clear you were not to ever darken our doorstep again.

Congratulations.

This is EXACTLY the kind of attitude and community relations we need from "my rights come first" gun owners if we want an even TOUGHER road ahead. Thank you VERY much.

We covered "open carry" laws in our academy at Quantico. Guess what? There's a little catch in there that deals with "inciting panic or fear" if you carry openely. Translation: You may win the battle (open carry) but lose the war (inciting fear/panic/riot).

Think yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre.

Yeah, I'd love to be able to carry openly without having to have a badge right next to the holstered gun. But if I learned ANYTHING in over a decade of undercover work from coast to coast, it was that carrying concealed was almost ALWAYS to everyone's advantage.

Sheeeeeesh. . .

Jeff

Wow.... "hauled his ass in" for legally exercising a right? That is the very attitude that creates the anti-LE sentiment that many in society hold. When did it become LE's job to push people into whatever the beliefs of the officer are? If you are really inclined to do this you are one of the problems facing our 2A rights in today's society. Your job is to enforce the law, not your personal beliefs on what people should and should not do.

As far as yelling "fire in a crowded theater"..... not even close, sorry. There is no "catch".... what there happens to be is a problem with LE strong-arming society with BS such as this. If this is the stance your department takes I hope an officer hauls the wrong person in and the department gets it's tail sued off. Enforcing opinion by pressing bogus charges to stop people from exercising their rights is underhanded and shady... a department that does this is no better than most of the criminals they deal with. Cops are no more than normal people with a little piece of metal on their chest.... "public servant" I believe the term is. The public pays the police to provide a public service... not to enforce personal opinion.

 

[WayneConrad]

Jeff's second post, which states his case in a pretty level-headed fashion, is the one we ought to be responding to. Please give him a pass on his first one, or this thread is going to go right off the rails. We all get our knickers in a knot from time to time. Jeff's not a bad nut for that one post. We don't have to agree with him. We just have to keep it civil, and not personal.

 

[altitude_19]

MANY thanks to TexasSkyhawk

Sir,
I feel obligated to offer the gratitude of the many among us who see you as the perfect means by which to demonstrate conclusively the power trip that some people get from their badge, and why they never should have applied for it in the first place.

I woulda hauled your butt in and sorted it all out while you were cooling your smart mouth in a holding cell.

Thank God that we live in a country where a "smart mouth" CAN'T legally land you in a holding cell. And thank the Devil that men like you would still attempt it. Have you considered employment with the Peoples' Republic of China? I strongly suspect your mentality is closely in line with what they are recruiting for nowadays.

And if I were the Wal-Mart manager, I would've filed criminal trespass charges against you and made it clear you were not to ever darken our doorstep again.

I strongly believe you have a future in that billet. You seem to have the same fleeting grasp of the legal system. One cannot be charged with trespassing prior to being asked to leave. I was actually asked to STAY until the police arrived. I didn't have to, but was kind enough to do so anyway. And after the manager apologized for involving the police in the first place, he was quick to ask me to come back. The times I have, I've left the iron in the car (being the diplomat I am) despite my growing suspicions he was enforcing a fictitious policy. But most times, I try to take my business elsewhere.

This is EXACTLY the kind of attitude and community relations we need from "my rights come first" gun owners if we want an even TOUGHER road ahead.

I never said my rights come FIRST. But you seem to be advocating that I shouldn't even put them in the running.

Think yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre.

Having a voice is to carrying a pistol as yelling "fire" is to brandishing that firearm. You remember brandishing...it's in one of those dusty old Operating Instructions you put on the shelf when you decided you preferred SOPs written by your ego. So they really provide training SPECIFICALLY in Wyoming state law at Quantico? I'm duly impressed.

In the military, his conduct is what we used to call "out of line." And if he is in the military, then I'm doubly disgusted at his behavior.

In the military, we don't enforce what's not been disseminated as a standing order (you can't abide by what doesn't exist). My supervisor was apprised of the incident and would be quick to inform you that "disgusted" is a term not typically associated with one who has twice been decorated for composure during operations Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom.
Once more, Sir, thank you for the illustration. MANY SINCERE THANKS for demonstrating the mentality that one should consider MOST carefully before they decide whether they will "Serve and Protect" or "Bully and Intimidate."

 

[LAK Supply]

Didn't see that second one when I posted.......

I see where you're coming from, but it's still a society bullying people out of their rights because of it's own discomfort.

Wal-Mart would have won nothing in Cheyenne.... a fundamental right guaranteed by the state constitution trumps Wally World. They could post their store, and that would be their choice. It would also be our choice to complain constantly and shop somewhere else. Other outfits were providing goods in Wyoming long before Wal-Mart showed up.

Sigh.

Sorry, Wayne--and anyone/everyone else.

It HAS been a hard day, but reading posts where people display such blatant "me first" and to heck with what others think attitudes tends to chap me.

Let me try and calm down and take a few deep breaths. (I already edited the "a" word and changed it to the "b" word--my pastor DOES read this forum. I don't need any additional grief from him come this Sunday.)

In a perfect world, we could carry open. No questions asked. It's not a perfect world. In fact, even in the old "wild west days," more towns than not required "guns be checked at the door."

Why?

Because too many people got a beer or three or a bottle of whiskey and cards and could not exercise good judgement. Our "problems" originated way before we ever did."

I'm looking at this from a cop's viewpoint--or trying to. I was a federal cop; only thing I normally interacted with the locals on was drug-related matters. BUT, 3:00 a.m., Wal-Mart, guy comes strolling with open carry, skeleton crew, normally they're putting up the truck and are already tired and stressed.

Manager talks to Sergeant Open-Carry and mistakenly explains policy and/or law. Sergeant Open-Carry acts like the "A" word and gets police called. Police don't like calls to Wal-Mart at 3:00 a.m. because some yahoo strolled in with a gun AND is giving the store manager a hard time.

How does ANYTHING Sergeant Open-Carry did or how he represented himself help gun owners or our image?

I'll guarantee you that Wal-Mart has more clout with Wyoming and Cheyenne elected officials than Sergeant Open-Carry. IF the local Wal-Mart wanted to get whizzy about it, I would venture a bet that they could coordinate with OTHER Cheyenne area businesses and the Cheyenne CoC and get a local ordinance passed prohibiting open carry in their places of business.

The night manager at Wal-Mart could explain what happened to the Store Manager who might just petition Bentonville to allow them to pass or enact their OWN policy in response to Sergeant Open-Carry's gracious, professional, mature conduct.

In other words, Sergeant Open-Carry might've won the battle, but could very well add another stone to jepoardizing the war. In the military, his conduct is what we used to call "out of line." And if he is in the military, then I'm doubly disgusted at his behavior.

Jeff