Russian SKS bayonet question

[shotgunjoel]

So I am looking at buying a Russian SKS. I'm not real crazy about having the bayonet on it. I know that there is some goofy stuff with SKS bayonets like you can't put one on a Norinco, but can't take one off of a Yugo. I have never heard anything about the legality of taking the bayonet off of a Russian SKS. Does it violate C&R? Thanks for the help.

 

[zhyla]

Why would removing a bayonet invalidate its C&R status? And what jurisdiction are you in?

Better question, why would you remove a bayonet from a nice Russian SKS? Makes no sense.

 

[shotgunjoel]

I know that if you take the bayonet off of a Yugo it is illegal because it no longer qualifies as C&R. I wouldn't get rid of it, I just have no use for a bayonet. Just seems like extra weight on the end of a rifle. It doesn't make me a huge difference, it's my rifle and I'd like to take it off if I can.

 

[unit91]

Why would removing a bayonet invalidate its C&R status?

In order to maintain 922R compliance. My understanding is that if the bayonet is removed, the rifle is no longer a curio / relic, and must have the appropriate number of US-made parts. Any of you BATFE lurkers want to back me up here?

 

[DMK]

I know that if you take the bayonet off of a Yugo it is illegal because it no longer qualifies as C&R.

In order to maintain 922R compliance. My understanding is that if the bayonet is removed, the rifle is no longer a curio / relic

I have never seen that proven with a letter from the ATF or anything similar. I suspect that it is internet rumor.

Yugo M59/66 SKS often had their grenade launchers cut off in order to sell them to California C&R holders.

I do know that I (and many others) have been sold quite a few "gunsmith specials" as C&Rs from the big dealers such as Century Arms, AIM Surplus and Southern Ohio Gun. These were usually missing parts such as bayonets, or other easily replaced items. All three of my Yugo M59s were purchased without bayonets from Century and I had to scrounge quite a while to find the unique gray finish replacements in order to restore them.

I never heard of the ATF giving any of them any grief about it and selling rifles in this form certainly sounds worse that removing and storing a bayonet from a complete rifle you already own.

 

[unit91]

I have never seen that proven with a letter from the ATF or anything similar. I suspect that it is internet rumor.

Good point. Well, let's get this taken care of then. I'll send a letter to BATFE and post the response here. I suspect you're right, though.

 

[rcmodel]

One would hope the ATF has better things to worry about!

I don't think I have ever heard of anyone getting in trouble for it one way or another, unless it was tacked onto a more serious charge for using the SKS in a crime or something.

I remember back when cases of Norinco's were a dime a dozen at gun shows.

Across the aisle there was always some guy selling brand new SKS bayonets as cheap "Tent Stakes".

Yea right!

rc

 

[D Boone]

Well I remember when everyone had cases of Norinco's with the bayo's still attached and in the cosomline. I would think these would be ok to leave the bayo's on.

 

[mljdeckard]

No, I don't know of anyone getting in trouble for removing a bayonet, but I also don't know of anyone getting in trouble AT ALL for modifying SKSs out of compliance with 922r. Doesn't mean I want to be the first.

I Tapco'd out my Yugo, and I left the bayonet on, because the weight combined with the muzzle brake drops the recoil to just about nothing.

 

[DMK]

Well I remember when everyone had cases of Norinco's with the bayo's still attached and in the cosomline. I would think these would be ok to leave the bayo's on.

Norincos were never C&R eligible because they were manufactured and exported commercially. The other countries SKS were all military issue and sold as military surplus. (Although some early Chinese SKS were military issue and even those are not C&R for some odd reason)

After the 9.22r import regulations were passed in 1989 during George Bush Sr.'s reign, the bayonets had to be removed from Norinco SKS in order to make them a "sporting rifle" in order to comply with 9.22r (similar to why Romanian PSLs could be imported).

In theory, if your Norinco SKS was imported before the 9.22r regulations were enacted then your rifle can keep the bayonet. The catch is, how do you prove that?

 

[Ian]

As I understand it, it's really the grenade launcher that makes the Yugo 59/66 a unique case. According to ATF, "modifying" a C&R rifle voids it's C&R status, and it's that C&R status that allowed ther 59/66 SKSs to be imported. Without that status, the 59/66 is subject to the 1989 import ban, because it has the ability to accept a detachable mag (an aftermarket one, anyway), and also has more than one evil feature (bayonet and grenade launcher/threaded barrel).

So theoretically, you would need to either permanently attach a muzzle brake and grind off the bayonet mounting lug, or replace enough parts to bring the rifle into 922(r) compliance (which is simple enough to do, with the availability of US stocks, pistons, and mags). I might be misunderstanding this, though.

Alternatively, you can just take off the bayonet and forget about it. If you've ever made a profit from selling a gun, you've done something just as illegal already anyway. It's a non-issue, and sticking your head up to discuss it with ATF is far more likely to cause you trouble than just sticking the bayo in a box in your closet (IMO).

 

[unit91]

Ok, folks, here's the letter. It's in the mail. I'll let you know when I get a reply.

 

[mljdeckard]

Ian, that's what I did, I got the Tapco compliance kit. It it has a new muzzle brake, op rod, piston, pistol grip, stock, gas tube, the magazine counts as three parts, etc. I also added tech sights, and I plan on getting the Tapco bolt that captures the firing pin and allows tactical reloads.

 

[murdoc rose]

my advise would be to ship it with bayonet attached and once it was at the house just take it off and put it somewhere in the safe. when you get inspected see if they say anything. C&R modification rules are very annoying but I doubt they will care about a bayonet.

 

[zhyla]

I don't believe removing anything affects a C&R's status. Adding something (such as a sporter stock) can.

But for goodness sake just leave the bayo on. They're shiny and pretty.

 

[DMK]

If you've ever made a profit from selling a gun, you've done something just as illegal already anyway.

That's not true. You can certainly sell a gun for more than you paid for it. Where does the ATF say you can't?

 

[shotgunjoel]

Yeah I suppose that I'll leave it on, I'm just not that tacticool.

 

[jonnyc]

This entire thread makes no sense. The C&R status only has any relevance when you are transfering it. You can buy a Soviet SKS as a C&R, take the bayonet off and shoot it, leave it lying about your house with the bayo off, then put the bayonet back on and sell it. No big deal, no need to have sent ANYTHING to the ATF.

 

[Ian]

That's not true. You can certainly sell a gun for more than you paid for it. Where does the ATF say you can't?

Making money on gun sales could theoretically be considered dealing without a license (assuming you don't have an FFL, of course). Not something I'd worry about, but in the same realm as having a bayonet-less M59/66.

 

[jonnyc]

"Making money on gun sales could theoretically be considered dealing without a license"

No, it only means you bought cheap and sold high. Of course you can make a profit on any particular gun sale IN ORDER TO ENHANCE YOUR COLLECTION. You may not, however, engage in the business of selling guns with a C&R. There's a big difference between making a profit and conducting business.

 

[Sam1911]

This entire thread makes no sense. The C&R status only has any relevance when you are transfering it. You can buy a Soviet SKS as a C&R, take the bayonet off and shoot it, leave it lying about your house with the bayo off, then put the bayonet back on and sell it. No big deal, no need to have sent ANYTHING to the ATF.

jonnyc you're not seeing the whole picture. The problem isn't just 922(r). Section 925(d)(3) is where the trouble starts:

Here's a summary of how the various laws affect the SKS and what the ATF says about it:

Quote:
Therefore, since an SKS exibits some of these characteristics, it is banned from importation under section 925(d)(3). However, subsection (e)(1) of the same section allows for its importation because of its current designation as a Curio and Relic (the 20th item down on this list: http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/cu...0505update.htm).

This section, by itself, only applies to importation, once it is in the country, Section 925 no longer applies.

HOWEVER, this section is referred to in Section 922(r) which states:

Quote:
"It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semi-automatic rifle or shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to... "

Current ATF rulings hold that any modification of a military surplus C&R firearm from its "original military configuration" voids its status as a C&R firearm. Current ATF rulings also indicate that virtually ANY modification to a firearm can be construed as "assembly" of a new firearm.

(http://sailorcurt.blogspot.com/2007/...al-issues.html)

As Nuglium posted, you should read this: http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=27678.0 so that you know what the ATF has to say about it. Even the most cursory reading shows that they CAN and DO consider a modified SKS to be subject to the parts count provision of 922(r).

 

[Sam1911]

jonnyc,

Further, I don't see how you can state that 922(r) is only relevant when you transfer the gun. The law states, "(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph (c) of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes."

"No person shall assemble" seems to mean "EVER" or "PERIOD." It doesn't say "make sure you put it back before you sell it." Where did you get the idea about transferring?

 

[DMK]

Removing a bayonet will not get you in trouble with 9.22r. Even if you did void the rifle's C&R status, the rifle would still be importable as it does not have enough evil features. Compare the SKS to the Romanian PSL which is currently importable and has been for years. The SKS doesn't even have a detachable magazine, much less a pistol grip.

When 9.22r was enacted, Chinese SKS were still imported when they had the bayonet removed (they even left the bayonet and screw in the box). The importation of Chinese SKS was only stopped due to a selective trade embargo that Clinton enacted against China. A similar embargo was also enacted against Russia.

Ian may be right about the Yugo 59/66 because it has a threaded muzzle. But that would be a unique case since it is the only SKS with that feature.

 

[Sam1911]

Even if you did void the rifle's C&R status, the rifle would still be importable as it does not have enough evil features.

So this is incorrect?

Therefore, since an SKS exibits some of these characteristics, it is banned from importation under section 925(d)(3). However, subsection (e)(1) of the same section allows for its importation because of its current designation as a Curio and Relic (the 20th item down on this list: http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/cu...0505update.htm).

Are you assuming, or do you know for sure? Comparing it to a PSL may make logical sense, but might not be in line with the BATF's views.

 

[Ian]

I was poking around on the net some more and found this:

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=19536

It purposrts to be a copy of an ATF email notice about various issues, and includes this text:

Non-sporting features may be removed from SKS and AK type rifles without violating 922(r), i.e. bayonet, bayonet lug, bipod, grenade launcher, flash suppressor, and night sight. Any additions to SKS and AK type rifles would
make them nonsporting firearms that would be in violation of 922(r). These
additions include: replacing the thumbhole stock with a pistol grip and
military style stock and/or modifying the firearm to accept a high capacity
magazine.

(it does go on to describe how you can add non-sporting modifications as long as you install enough US-made parts).