Russians using Beretta Cx4 Storm?

[Panzerschwein]

It appears there was a shortage Beretta of Cx4 Storms in the US for a while. The rumor mill has it that Beretta was focusing production on a military or police contract of some kind.

Well, I spotted this on Classic Firearms:

https://www.classicfirearms.com/beretta-cx4-storm-9mm-carbine-new

They appear to be selling contract overrun Cx4 Storms. Apparently these are coming with manuals that are in Russian, or a Russian-like language. Also the barrel lengths on these rifles appear to be a little longer than normal, about 2" or so according to one reviewer.

Does anyone have any word on these? Has Beretta really been making Cx4 Storms for the Russian police that have a unique barrel length? Any information on these curious guns would be greatly appreciated. I am thinking about buying one.

Thanks!

 

[MAKster]

It has been widely reported that the armed forces of India bought 68,000 of the Mx4 version (full auto with 12 barrel). Supposedly Beretta has been busy filling that order and isn't making Cx4s for the US market.

 

[Panzerschwein]

It has been widely reported that the armed forces of India bought 68,000 of the Mx4 version (full auto with 12 barrel). Supposedly Beretta has been busy filling that order and isn't making Cx4s for the US market.

Yes but what does that have to do with these specific contract overrun Cx4s?

 

[MAKster]

You cited "rumors" of a foreign contract being the reason why Beretta Cx4s have not been available in the US. So I gave you the facts about the contract with India.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Having seen some of the ad copy that Classic Firearms has posted in the past, I wouldn't be surprised if Cletus can't tell the difference between Cyrillic and Sanskrit.

 

[Panzerschwein]

You cited "rumors" of a foreign contract being the reason why Beretta Cx4s have not been available in the US. So I gave you the facts about the contract with India.

I am most interested in these particular contract guns. Who where they made for, why, and why is the barrel length longer than normal?

Thank you for your time.

 

[Mizar]

Yup, those guns are definitely made for a top-secret Spetsnaz unit - the vendor said so... Do expect special barrel steel & treatment, reinforced breach mechanism to shoot that high powered, very special, top secret 9x19 rounds Russians are so proud of. Or it could be that Russian civilians are not allowed to own rifles bellow 800 mm (31.5") of length and there was some overrun at the factory and Classic Firearms got them cheap. But I doubt it's that simple...

So, Russian police units are using a semi-auto pistol caliber "rifle" holding only 10 rounds of 9 mm Luger? And you find nothing wrong with that statement?

Best,
Boris

 

[Panzerschwein]

Yup, those guns are definitely made for a top-secret Spetsnaz unit - the vendor said so... Do expect special barrel steel & treatment, reinforced breach mechanism to shoot that high powered, very special, top secret 9x19 rounds Russians are so proud of. Or it could be that Russian civilians are not allowed to own rifles bellow 800 mm (31.5") of length and there was some overrun at the factory and Classic Firearms got them cheap. But I doubt it's that simple...

So, Russian police units are using a semi-auto pistol caliber "rifle" holding only 10 rounds of 9 mm Luger? And you find nothing wrong with that statement?

Best,
Boris

Well it still doesn't explain the longer barrel and unusual manuals.

And for one thing, the Cx4 can accept Beretta 15-18 round magazines as well as 30 round magazines, all factory. I won't get into the merits of pistol caliber carbines for defense, but several entities around the world including US police departments and college campus security, as well as several countries such as Venezuela, India, and Libya use Beretta Cx4s for their defense forces. And no, I'm not talking about the Mx4 submachine gun, but specifically the Cx4 carbine.

So it's in no way out of the question that these are contract overruns. I'd love to get my hands on one of the manuals and try to translate it to see what nation it was written for, and maybe even compare that nations gun laws in regards to barrel length and overall length for legality in said country to see if the extended barrel is a result of local legislature in that country.

 

[Mizar]

Well it still doesn't explain the longer barrel and unusual manuals.

"...[In Russian federation] Prohibited firearms [for civilian use] are those with a cartridge capacity of more than ten bullets , those that can fire in bursts, those with a barrel length of less than 500 millimeters or an entire length under 800 millimeters..." From https://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/russia.php#Prohibited
Overall length of CX4 with 16.6" barrel - 29.7" or 755 mm. Beretta lists a model with 500 mm barrel/800 mm OAL as a standard offering though. To sell guns to the police, or any other law enforcement agency means to win a public tender with specified quantity of guns to be purchased. Then both parties sign a contract for delivery and payment. There is little to no possibility for overruns here.
The manuals are not unusual - they are just written in some language that you (and the guys from Classic Firearms) don't understand, nothing more.

Like I already said - the most logical explanation is this: guns made for some specific civilian market, overruns or canceled orders, Beretta has guns gathering dust in their warehouse, US vendor gets them for cheap because of non-English manuals and cheaper packaging, vendor tells some unproven story for the guns to sell easily. No special orders, no special police units, no unobtanium barrels...

Best,
Boris

P.S.

...Venezuela, India, and Libya use Beretta Cx4s for their defense forces...

Well, I was wrong...

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

Why would Russian police order long barrel CX4s? It's like one of my ultimate pet peeves in movies where soldiers are for some reason using NFA compliant barrel length M-4s.

Why would the order CX4s at all when they have domestically produced 9mm Vityaz-SNs and PP-2000s already?

Doesn't pass the smell test.

 

[SSN Vet]

There is little to no possibility for overruns here.

Let me guess, you don't work in manufacturing.

If a manufacturer has a contractual commitment (often with penalties for failure to deliver exact quantities by specific dates) to deliver x rifles of a custom configuration (which may require parts that they will never inventory or use in other production runs) they are absolutely going to do an over-run on all the key components and a certain number of finished goods to make up for any quality rejects. This really is necessary to ensure that they can deliver the contractual number of finished units on time and the cost of the pre-planned over-run will usually be built into the contract cost.

You see this all the time at PSA, as they have an inside track to the nearby FN plant's contract over-run parts, which they purchase on the cheep (FN has probably already been paid for them once and just wants to clear the floor for the next production run) and then sell at a pretty deep discount.

Unless you are 100% sure that you will have 100% quality on 100% of your parts, you will always run extras to ensure that you don't have to go back and do a second to set up to produce any make up quantities.

Setting up manufacturing cells takes considerable time, costs money, and prevents the assets from being used to make other products.

 

[Mizar]

Let me guess - we are developing a story, told by somebody (Classic Firearms) who doesn't even speak the language of the manuals and has no other proof of his claims. By the way you are right - I don't work in manufacturing, I deal with construction machinery where 10 units ordered means 10 units manufactured. Even your explanation, although valid, does not support the said police story - only that somebody ordered some CX4 carbines and then canceled the order. And on top of that the only difference form stock CX4 is barrel length, which is already listed as an available option on the Beretta site. Nothing more in those guns at least according to the vendor.

P.S. I participate in this thread for one simple reason - if it grows I will be first hand witness of the birth of another Internet Gun Myth. And that feels exiting... Cheers guys!

P.P.S. Somebody already edited the Wikipedia article on CX4 - "Russia: Russian police received a large order of Cx4 carbines with a slightly lengthened barrel for use by police." and listed the above mentioned link to Classic Firearms site. It couldn't get any better than this!

 

[Panzerschwein]

"...[In Russian federation] Prohibited firearms [for civilian use] are those with a cartridge capacity of more than ten bullets , those that can fire in bursts, those with a barrel length of less than 500 millimeters or an entire length under 800 millimeters..." From https://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/russia.php#Prohibited
Overall length of CX4 with 16.6" barrel - 29.7" or 755 mm. Beretta lists a model with 500 mm barrel/800 mm OAL as a standard offering though. To sell guns to the police, or any other law enforcement agency means to win a public tender with specified quantity of guns to be purchased. Then both parties sign a contract for delivery and payment. There is little to no possibility for overruns here.
The manuals are not unusual - they are just written in some language that you (and the guys from Classic Firearms) don't understand, nothing more.

Like I already said - the most logical explanation is this: guns made for some specific civilian market, overruns or canceled orders, Beretta has guns gathering dust in their warehouse, US vendor gets them for cheap because of non-English manuals and cheaper packaging, vendor tells some unproven story for the guns to sell easily. No special orders, no special police units, no unobtanium barrels...

Best,
Boris

P.S. Well, I was wrong...

Wow, that is very interesting.

Without a doubt, I think if these were really meant for Russia, then from the evidence you have shown it is not likely it was meant for the police or military there.

 

[Kendal Black]

...

P.P.S. Somebody already edited the Wikipedia article on CX4 - "Russia: Russian police received a large order of Cx4 carbines with a slightly lengthened barrel for use by police." and listed the above mentioned link to Classic Firearms site. It couldn't get any better than this!

Oh my. That is a classic. I feel honored to be a witness to firearms history in the making.

 

[evtSmtx]

can you post an excerpt of the manuals? Sombeody here may read russian

 

[MAKster]

While it is possible they were designed for sale commercially in Russia I also doubt Classic Arms vague reference to the police or military. Since Classic Arms bought these from the importer PW Arms why wouldn't they just ask PW Arms where they acquired the rifles?

 

[Hacker15E]

The CX4 has a nice CHF barrel, and the one I owned was very accurate. The size and ergonomics are awesome, and the commonality with the 92FS mags excellent.

I just hated shooting it due to the really heavy reciprocating mass of the bolt. Tooth-jarring isn't an understatement. The trigger sucks, too, but can be fixed with the right parts.

If it could be a soft shooter like the HK-94, that would make all the difference in the world.

As for these...who cares if they are contract over-run or have a nontypical barrel length? "Buy the gun, not the story".

 

[Panzerschwein]

You know it blows my mind about how smart and helpful people are here.

I am so glad I have joined THR. You guys are a wealth of info and any time I have a question (which is all the time!) I learn a lot from you all. Thanks for helping me investigate this matter!

 

[Fatdaddy]

Story or no story, I just placed an order for one.
I've been looking for one locally for a few months to no avail and finally found the ones Classic Firearms has.
Less than $750 to my door (via FFL and their fee)
Sure beats the $1100 I was quoted at my local shop.
Google has an app that uses your phone camera that I've had good luck with.
I may try it on the manual just for giggles...

 

[Mizar]

Just take a picture of the front cover, or where the text starts - if it's Russian I can translate it for you. And if it's some other Slavic language, or written on some Cyrillic alphabet at least I can tell you what the language is.

Best,
Boris