S&T of CHL Holder In Tyler Shooting
- Thread starter Bartholomew Roberts
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Sam
Member
You are better off putting out 30-40 dollars more and getting a 98 Mauser of some sort. Better ammo availability and a bit more lattitude in what you can do with it.
As for whether or not it has steel core available, that is of little consequence.
Steel cores for Combloc ammo iare mild and not really a penetrator. Try it against some 196Gr 8x57 see which is the better penetrator.
You still need to be able to make the headshot. Even poodle shooters, let alone high power rifles in urban areas can be a disaster with uncontrolled fire, just watch the cops next time.
Sam
As for whether or not it has steel core available, that is of little consequence.
Steel cores for Combloc ammo iare mild and not really a penetrator. Try it against some 196Gr 8x57 see which is the better penetrator.
You still need to be able to make the headshot. Even poodle shooters, let alone high power rifles in urban areas can be a disaster with uncontrolled fire, just watch the cops next time.
Sam
armoredman
Member
Some informal tests were done with the 7.62x54R steel core Czech Silvertip, and without causing ATFE to soil themselves, rest assured it would have taken care of the problem quickly. Of course, the mild steel core is simply a manufacturing expediant for cheap ammo, and has absolutely nothing whatsoever towards AP use, nor was it intended to do so, and certainly should not be looked at as such, and Olympic Arms had better not EVER make a pistol in this caliber, like they screwed 7.62x39 shooters out of the steel core AK ammo way back when, even after being begged not to by a whole bunch of companies.... *gasp*. Long sentance....
If you have about $100 to blow, get a Mosin M44. Attached bayonet can be useful at contact distances, and the ammo is effective. If you have $200, get a Yugo SKS....has a bayonet as well, and 10 rounds semi-auto.
RIP, brave soul. *Salute*
If you have about $100 to blow, get a Mosin M44. Attached bayonet can be useful at contact distances, and the ammo is effective. If you have $200, get a Yugo SKS....has a bayonet as well, and 10 rounds semi-auto.
RIP, brave soul. *Salute*
orangeninja
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"yeah, but then what are the odds that the police and the public will mistake you as the BadGuy? "
This is a possibility. I plan on having a raid hat or shirt with the letters "POLICE" on it in the trunk next to my rifle.
Somthing most citizens can do that would instantly identify you as a good guy is carry a bright red or orange first aid kit slung on your shoulder....everyone knows bad guys don't rush out with first aid gear, at least cops do. I suggest everyone have somthing like this anyway. If you can make a bullet hole, you should be able to patch one.
http://www.galls.com/style.html?assort=general_catalog&style=BG170&cat=510
I don't think a bolt rifle is a good idea....what if you have to go indoors?
Personally I think a 12ga. with rifle sights would be nice to have....accurate enough and a heck of a lot more versatile. The SKS would still be a nice option due again to fairly good accuracy at medium ranges, cheap to get, durable as heck, cheap ammo and it's semi auto. Did I mention reliable?
This is a possibility. I plan on having a raid hat or shirt with the letters "POLICE" on it in the trunk next to my rifle.
Somthing most citizens can do that would instantly identify you as a good guy is carry a bright red or orange first aid kit slung on your shoulder....everyone knows bad guys don't rush out with first aid gear, at least cops do. I suggest everyone have somthing like this anyway. If you can make a bullet hole, you should be able to patch one.
http://www.galls.com/style.html?assort=general_catalog&style=BG170&cat=510
I don't think a bolt rifle is a good idea....what if you have to go indoors?
Personally I think a 12ga. with rifle sights would be nice to have....accurate enough and a heck of a lot more versatile. The SKS would still be a nice option due again to fairly good accuracy at medium ranges, cheap to get, durable as heck, cheap ammo and it's semi auto. Did I mention reliable?
duckslayer
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There was only one CHL responder, Mr. Wilson...the papers did get it wrong.
sturmruger
Member
Actaully there were two people with CHLs at the scene. I saw the second guy interviewed on CNN. He didn't shoot at the BG but he did follow him and help the cop zero in on him when he drove off.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Anyone see the courthouse door video? Looks like the scumbag had taken up a position in front of the door initially. The two officers first responding to the shots, exited the glass front door and were immediately taken under fire.
One deputy ran out of ammo and dived off the side of the steps out of view of the camera and the second goes down on the opposite side, having been shot. The glass gets blown out by the incoming fire and you see a civilian dive through the glass into the courthouse from outside.
At this point, you see the feet of the gunman in the video running towards Wilson, who has opened fire on him from outside the camera. Looks like the distance was further than what was reported; maybe 15-25yds (about 2.5-3 pickup truck lengths using the wheels of the gunman's truck as a reference)
Finally, three officers attempt to fire on the gunman from inside the courthouse through the shattered window. One goes down immediately, then a second drops back to reload and the third officer appears to be going at the badguy with a wheelgun when he is shot. Shortly after that four more officers pour out the front door and the video ends.
Judging from the video the whole thing went down in less than 30 seconds or so...
One deputy ran out of ammo and dived off the side of the steps out of view of the camera and the second goes down on the opposite side, having been shot. The glass gets blown out by the incoming fire and you see a civilian dive through the glass into the courthouse from outside.
At this point, you see the feet of the gunman in the video running towards Wilson, who has opened fire on him from outside the camera. Looks like the distance was further than what was reported; maybe 15-25yds (about 2.5-3 pickup truck lengths using the wheels of the gunman's truck as a reference)
Finally, three officers attempt to fire on the gunman from inside the courthouse through the shattered window. One goes down immediately, then a second drops back to reload and the third officer appears to be going at the badguy with a wheelgun when he is shot. Shortly after that four more officers pour out the front door and the video ends.
Judging from the video the whole thing went down in less than 30 seconds or so...
orangeninja
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Anyone have a link to this video?
HighVelocity
Member
I just saw it on Fox 4 news. Pretty graphic video.
Langenator
Member
My big question is, from accounts I've seen, Wiilson came out of his apartment, located just down the street, to engage the shooter. I've seen pictures taken from the courthouse steps, and Wilson's building is easily visible. So the shooter should have been easy to see form there. Why Wilson bring a rifle from his apartment, or did he not have any avialable? I have to think a deer rifle would have ended it pretty quick.
This is not to discount Mr. Wilson's heroic sacrifice. Hell, I'm a soldier, and I wouldn't want to to a rifle fight with only a pistol.
This is not to discount Mr. Wilson's heroic sacrifice. Hell, I'm a soldier, and I wouldn't want to to a rifle fight with only a pistol.
Imaginos
Member
Pelvic Shots
I am hearing a disturbing number among us advocating the groin/leg shot as a response to the failure to stop problem. In "Tactical Pistol Marksmanship", Gabe Suarez makes the point, "The hip bone is not connected to the trigger finger bone."
The BG may go down from a pelvic hit, but that should in no way imply that he is out of the fight. Our BG in Tyler took a groin hit from Wilson and was still able to leave the scene under his own power.
IMHO the pelvic shot was developed for LEO use, and this was mostly to reduce the liability hazards faced by the LEO's employers. It is a lot harder to claim "excessive force" and "civil rights violations" if the BG has a severe limp and/or is rendered unable to procreate than if the SOP is some variation of the Mozambique Drill.
We can and should analyze this shooting as thoroughly as possible, but several facts are abundantly clear.
1) There is not much real cover on a city street that will defeat a .30+ caliber rifle round. About the only thing I know of is solid concrete (12+" thick) and good brick masonry (not cinder block). Mr. Wilson appearently took cover behind a truck. It was better than nothing, but not good enough.
2) For non-LEOs, the Mozambique is really the only answer to the failure to stop scenario. We normally have no body armor, and back up is just a fantasy. Mr. Wilson achieved a groin hit whether by accident or intention we will never know. We do know the BG was not rendered incapable of further action.
3) The ONLY instant off-switch is the brain/central nervous system. Hitting it under stress requires a lot of hard work.
4) The Mozambique doctrine of fire 2 and pause to assess the effect before firing the head shot is out of date. The modern version advocated by Suarez is fire 2 and automatically stage the weapon for the head shot. If you see a head over the sights, shoot it. Not politically correct, but much faster than the standard drill.
I am hearing a disturbing number among us advocating the groin/leg shot as a response to the failure to stop problem. In "Tactical Pistol Marksmanship", Gabe Suarez makes the point, "The hip bone is not connected to the trigger finger bone."
The BG may go down from a pelvic hit, but that should in no way imply that he is out of the fight. Our BG in Tyler took a groin hit from Wilson and was still able to leave the scene under his own power.
IMHO the pelvic shot was developed for LEO use, and this was mostly to reduce the liability hazards faced by the LEO's employers. It is a lot harder to claim "excessive force" and "civil rights violations" if the BG has a severe limp and/or is rendered unable to procreate than if the SOP is some variation of the Mozambique Drill.
We can and should analyze this shooting as thoroughly as possible, but several facts are abundantly clear.
1) There is not much real cover on a city street that will defeat a .30+ caliber rifle round. About the only thing I know of is solid concrete (12+" thick) and good brick masonry (not cinder block). Mr. Wilson appearently took cover behind a truck. It was better than nothing, but not good enough.
2) For non-LEOs, the Mozambique is really the only answer to the failure to stop scenario. We normally have no body armor, and back up is just a fantasy. Mr. Wilson achieved a groin hit whether by accident or intention we will never know. We do know the BG was not rendered incapable of further action.
3) The ONLY instant off-switch is the brain/central nervous system. Hitting it under stress requires a lot of hard work.
4) The Mozambique doctrine of fire 2 and pause to assess the effect before firing the head shot is out of date. The modern version advocated by Suarez is fire 2 and automatically stage the weapon for the head shot. If you see a head over the sights, shoot it. Not politically correct, but much faster than the standard drill.
geekWithA.45
Moderator Emeritus
One of my Readers, who knew Mark Wilson went to Tyler for the memorial, and started asking around.
This is his reconstruction of the gunfight, from a photo caption @ my site:
My .02:
If we must credit Mr. Wilson with a mistake, it was in that he ran out to do battle without a long gun.
I'm not going to criticise him, for that though, as it's easy to forget something critical in an emergency.
Although I'm loathe to admit it, I once did a 3am house clearing excercise in the nude, with nothing but my spectacles, a flashlight and a handgun.
It turned out the cat tripped the alarm, but I felt, really, really stupid when I got back to my bed, and noticed my armor hanging in the closet.
That actually caused me to sit still and think for a very long time.
This is his reconstruction of the gunfight, from a photo caption @ my site:
My .02:
If we must credit Mr. Wilson with a mistake, it was in that he ran out to do battle without a long gun.
I'm not going to criticise him, for that though, as it's easy to forget something critical in an emergency.
Although I'm loathe to admit it, I once did a 3am house clearing excercise in the nude, with nothing but my spectacles, a flashlight and a handgun.
It turned out the cat tripped the alarm, but I felt, really, really stupid when I got back to my bed, and noticed my armor hanging in the closet.
That actually caused me to sit still and think for a very long time.
CZ52GUY
Member
Awful tough situation
If I'm reading this stuff right...if you use the Chuck Taylor rifle snap shot standard of 1-second at 15 meters as best case reaction time (or worst case depending on perspective)...CCW holder needs to be able to place terminal HS into body-armor clad BG from about 15 yards in about 1-1.25 seconds. Consistent slow-fire HS at that distance are a challenge for diligent shooters who practice regularly...under those conditions where all Hell is breaking loose all around...that's a lot to ask.
I salute Mr. Wilson for being "his brother's keeper".
CZ52'
If I'm reading this stuff right...if you use the Chuck Taylor rifle snap shot standard of 1-second at 15 meters as best case reaction time (or worst case depending on perspective)...CCW holder needs to be able to place terminal HS into body-armor clad BG from about 15 yards in about 1-1.25 seconds. Consistent slow-fire HS at that distance are a challenge for diligent shooters who practice regularly...under those conditions where all Hell is breaking loose all around...that's a lot to ask.
I salute Mr. Wilson for being "his brother's keeper".
CZ52'
According to news reports, the officers had long guns in their vehicles. So, Mr. Wilson did nothing to impede their access to these weapons. As you point out in a subsequent posting, the officers responded from the courthouse, not the parking lot.
SMLE
Member
Somebody said;
Then buzz_knox said:
Then buzz_knox said:
I'm pretty sure the "shooter" in first statment is Arroyo, not Mr. Wilson.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
A cinder block wall will stop 7.62x39 with no problems (and larger rounds as well). A single cinder block will not reliably stop any rifle round except maybe .22LR. Cemented together, each block supports the others and is much stronger than it would be alone.
Well, you can't see much on the courthouse tape as the loser, his truck and Wilson are only visible from the ankles up for most of the fight. If the puff of smoke I thought was Wilson firing was actually Wilson, then I'd guess his first shot was probably from about 1 truck length behind the back of the right rear of the truck with the loser standing alomst 90 degress to the truck but out in front of the courthouse, facing the courthouse door.
Also, from the angles, it looks like the loser would have been facing Wilson during his approach (Wilson was on his oblique, maybe 60 degrees to the left of the shooter as he worked over the courthouse doors). You can see almost all of the shooters waist and a lot of the rifle (like he stuck it between his knees or something to reload) and then you see a puff of smoke behind the truck (couldn't make out a shooter) and then the loser turns and begins to run towards the truck.
Kind of a downside to prone... good stable position and small target; but you don't get into and out of it very fast. Prone behind a tire would have let him make very good use of the cover he had available (in fact, it is what I've always planned to do myself); but I can't help wonder if he would have been better off sacrificing some cover for mobility? Pretty bad scenario either way when the bad guy has a rifle and body armor.
TheDutchman
Member
Any news on the BG autopsy. If the Wilson did any damage to BG
Devonai
Member
It's possible that Wilson didn't want to be mistaken for the bad guy, so he brought the only thing he could conceal until he could determine whether or not he was in a position to help.
As armed citizens, we do not have the luxury of running around with our weapons visible while searching for the bad guy. We have to wait until the last possible moment to avoid being mistaken for the bad guy by the cops, at least when it's likely that cops will be in the area already or arriving soon.
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