S&T of CHL Holder In Tyler Shooting

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Here is a decent overview of the strategies and tactics used by the CHL holder, Mark Wilson to confront an AK47 and body-armor wearing assailant during the recent shootings in Tyler, TX:

Diagram of the scene, and more info on the CCW holder's tactics.
www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=1994&dept_id=227937&newsid=14032708&PAG=461&rfi=9

He saw another man with a gun, later identified as Mark Wilson, a former shooting range owner, hiding behind the gunman's parked truck.

"The shooter couldn't see him, but I could see both of them," Wilbanks said. "When the shooter stopped to reload, the guy behind the pickup came up and fired."

Wilbanks said he thought to himself, "I hope he is accurate."

"He hit him twice, he hit him bad, but he didn't kill him," he said.

The gunman, David Arroyo, was wearing body armor.

Wilbanks saw Arroyo turn around and fire at Wilson. Then the shooter got in his truck to leave.

Apparently the shooter had positioned himself between local law enforcement vehicles and the courthouse. Law enforcement had long guns; but was unable to access them due to the shooter's position and were forced to confront him with sidearms until after the shooter attempted to leave the scene in his truck.

 

[TheEgg]

<Sigh>

I don't know what I would do, for sure. It wasn't me there.

I THINK that my reaction would be: "Damn, he has a rifle and all I have is a pistol. I am going to get out of here if I can, at least see if I can find cover."

I don't think that I would have tried to take on this gunman under the circumstances.

I am NOT saying that Mr. Wilson was wrong, simply that I don't think that I would have attempted this.

I have a huge respect for the power of rifles, and no illusions about the lack of power of my CCW in comparison.

Thus my S&T would probably have been to beat feet out of there.

 

[1911SFOREVER]

Mr. Wilson was a Buck Stud Warrior.

It appears from this report that he fired a "standard response". I think this incident drives home the requirement to keep shooting the sonsabitches until they go down.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Yes, I posted the information more so we all might get an idea of the situation and tactics used, not so much as an opportunity to offer an armchair crtique of Mr. Wilson's tactics.

I can say this for Mark Wilson, he was a better man than I think I would have been in that circumstance.

 

[duckslayer]

I think this incident drives home the requirement to keep shooting the sonsabitches until they go down.

Amen.

Mark Wilson, he was a better man than I think I would have been in that circumstance.

Me too I'm afraid.

If there is a fund set up for his family I will post here on THR.

 

[1911SFOREVER]

I'll contribute as well.

Mr. Wilson's actions were exemplary...I hope I do half as well in these circumstances.

 

[duckslayer]

Oh by the way, there was another man shooting at the lunatic from behind a truck after he killed Wilson. I'm not sure yet, but I believe this was another CHL holder.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Oh by the way, there was another man shooting at the lunatic from behind a truck after he killed Wilson. I'm not sure yet, but I believe this was another CHL holder.

Read about that; but they just had the shooter as "unidentified". Wouldn't surprise me in Tyler though.

Edited to add:

Notice how many witnesses described "disbelief" as their first reaction? There were a whole lot who simply didn't believe (or want to believe I guess) what they were seeing.

 

[SapperLeader]

I certainly respect the power of rifles, and I would have no disrespect for anyone who chose to hunker down and only protect themselves and the ones around them. If one chose to engage, I guess there’s two ways to do it, one keep distance and remain behind cover and aim for the head, or two, close distance, and empty the magazine into head/torso.
A third possibility, would be retrieving a long arm from your vehicle (hard to secure , plus it was impossible for the officers to access their vehicles).

Problem with the first strategy is that a engine block is precious little cover, and the head is a moving target. Problem with the second strategy is getting him before he gets you, not very easy; he is better protected, and better armed. Problem with third strategy is making it to your vehicle ok, and people are dying while you do so.

Personally, I think I’m going to the range tonight and practice my long distance pistol shooting, I always practice a little bit, tonight I think I will practice a lot more.

This scenario sucks, and I’m getting even more choked up thinking about Mr. Wilson and his actions. If there’s any sort of fund for the families, or flowers for the funeral, I’m definitly in.

 

[Trebor]

Don't put too much credence in the reports of a second person engaging the gunman. Some of the early reports were put together very poorly and I would not be at all surprised if the reporter got confused and was really writing about Wilson twice, from two different witness accounts, and didn't realize it at the time. Notice that in later reports it's mentioned that Wilson was taking cover behind the shooter's truck.

Watch and see if more info comes out on the second shooter. I bet there won't be because the second shooter was created by bad reporting.

 

[1911SFOREVER]

I've put some thought into the circumstances of this tragedy, and Mr. Wilson's inspiring response.

I've decided that if I am ever confronted with a similiar situation, a rifle armed perpetrator, that I am just going to assume he is wearing body armor that will defeat my .45 rounds, and adjust my aim accordingly. My premise is based upon the tendency of that rifle armed assailents tend to come fully equipped and for a long term throw down. (Think North Hollywood bank robbers.) Even if they aren't wearing body armor, there's a good chance they'll be wearing their magazines on a chest pouch, which will afford them some measure of ballistic protection as well.

The standard respone drill of two rounds into the center of mass may do nothing more than alert my opponent that there is someone that poses a lethal threat to him. The first shots need to have at least some sort of debilitating effect...so the head/pelvis/legs may be place to start shooting.

I wrote that after having almost a full day to contemplate the situation that Mr. Wilson faced in seconds. Godspeed, Mr. Wilson. You set the standard.

 

[GEM]

I think this incident is a seminal one in the gun theory paradigm:

1. The theory of when to intervene - protect self or others. Duty to family vs. strangers. What motivates one to intervene? There are philosophical and psychological aspects.

2. Tactics:

a. 9mm vs 45 ACP - doesn't make a difference
b. COM vs head shots, Mozambiques ? Use of Cover. Much tactical discussion will follow.

3. Political:

a. Ban Assault rifles
b. Ban Body armor for citizens
c. More CHLs and more gun rights
d. Less guns and there will be no nuts with guns. More guns and good citizens can protect us. Guess who says what?

Everything is in play here.

Personally, I have no criticism of Wilson's decision. He was taken down by a low probability event. In the vast majority of cases, he would have been the clear hero. He could have hidden but he didn't.

I also cannot fault someone who chose not to intervene. That position is morally defensible also. Life is complex and there may not be a clear choice.

In moral decision making, there can be two levels - the immediate and emotional gut and the more logical level based on all the outcomes possible.

 

[Sam]

We will never know what Mr Wilson considered before acting, but I think we all agree that no matter what the quality of his decision making process:
He knew what right and wrong were
He was unwilling to stand by and do nothing
He had the courage to carry through with his decision

What makes a man?
What is the duty of a citizen?

He answered my questions.

Sam

 

[orangeninja]

I was saddened, shocked and a little proud to hear about what happened in Tyler.

Saddened: a good guy was killed.

Shocked: Tyler is a quite town.

Proud: A CHL holder engaged a threat...instead of hiding.

We should learn from this, pull what we can from it. In academy I was trained to "fire twice" then asses with my handgun. This type of training is not effective tactics but instead concerned with legal liability. For instance, does everybody remember the two New York cops charged criminally for shooting an unarmed African man 17 times? They painted those cops as trigger happy and trying to KILL their perps. Thus the shoot twice and asses policy. That allows the department to separate itself from the officer in a multishot gunfight if the wind is not blowing in a sweet direction.

Due to this type of stuff, tactical classes start to teach what the cops are doing without realizing why but instead using justification: I.E. One Shot Stop Myth or Excessive Force in a Gunfight nonsense.

Go old school. Train yourself to fire at least 5 to 6 shot rapid string fire, then train yourself to do it while moving. A ballistic vest would be hard pressed to take multiples and stop every one. (Recommended for high capacity weapons)

Secondly, train your self the old "two and one" or Mozambique drill. It has saved countless lives and if you are not carrying a high cap weapon, you should train it as if instictually. (Recommended for everyone)

Consider those to be tools in your little book of know how and practice each at the range. Six string shots are good if you are attacked at close range...I.E. less than 21 ft. "two and one" is good for 21 ft. and beyond or up close...just harder to do and takes a little more time between shots and forethought, training.

Mr. Wilson faced an anomoly....a guy with an assault rifle wearing body armor. The likelyhood of anybody facing that is akin to winning the lottery. Not likely. However I also hope this drives home a reality to some folks who consider the pistol "enough" to survive. It may be, but if you have a chance to take a long gun, take one.

I am considering putting one in the cab of my truck now: Legal in Texas.

 

[roo_ster]

A man armed with a rifle & protected by kevlar is a tough nut to crack with a handgun.

Wilson did what he did correctly, but just did not do what what necessary to incapacitate the BG: head shot or pelvis/upper leg shot.

alduro is correct WRT the "two shots, then evaluate" doctrine. Mozambique ought to be SOP.

alduro:
Do you have a lead on a decent & resonably priced lockable rifle case? I am thinking of buying one of the sub-$100 M38 or M44 Mosins for a beater truck gun, but want SOME security. I can't think of a kevlar vest that can't be defeated by 7.62x54 without plate inserts.

 

[Sam]

Even with the inserts, it's easier to make the headshot with a rifle.

Sam

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Looks like Mr. Wilson did manage to wound his assailant according to the autopsy results:

http://www.tylerpaper.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14040626&BRD=1994&PAG=461&dept_id=226369&rfi=6

"We believe from the autopsy that Wilson may have hit Arroyo at least once in the groin area," Lusk said. "There is evidence that not many of the shots fired by Wilson or the officers missed their mark, but they were hitting the armor."

If this is true, then there is no telling how many lives Mark Wilson saved with his heroic actions. We do know that after this exchange of gunfire the gunman broke off his attack and attempted to leave in his truck.

 

[Gunpacker]

Were the swarm of cops even shooting????

Accounts say that the place was swarming with cops. Seems to me that bullets should have been hitting the bad guy from all around. Yet Mark Wilson's shots drew attention. Is that because none of the cops were even shooting???????
Seems likely to me. God forbid that we be required to wait for the police to protect us. Columbine was another good example.

 

[SMLE]

"Thou Shalt not stand idly by the sight of thy neighbor's blood." Leviticus 19:16.

Mark Wilson was a righteous man, of that there can be no doubt. Since it seems he had no kin to leave it to, I think his pistol ought to be made the centerpiece of a memorial.

I subscribe to the "shoot em till they drop" school and practice 2-COM, 1 Head, regularly. If nothing else, hosing the SOB with bullets will distract him.

 

[orangeninja]

jfruser....I don't have the lead on lockable boxes cheap other than possibly a truck box for the bed or my truck. The water proof Stainless diamond plate tool boxes with one big compartment run about $200 at OReilly autoparts. For a car a trunk is perfectly fine.

I'm thinking SKS instead of a Mosin though. The 7.62x54 is great but in a situation like that, you may only get 1 or possibly 2 shots. A Wolf FMJ usually has a steel core that will make swiss cheese of any level 3 vest or under. Most wearable vests are under a level 3. Say a level 3A or lower. The 3 is pretty thick and heavy. A 4A or 4....I don't know anyone who has one of those. Our boys in Iraq have to use steel plates to stop the 7.62x39. So I'm thinking AK or SKS the way to go. Cheap, powerful...accurate enough, quick follow up shots.

 

[JohnKSa]

I don't think we can assume that Wilson only fired twice. Wilbanks says he HIT Arroyo twice, not that he fired twice.

One of the other eyewitnesses says that they were shooting at each other and missing which implies more than a couple of shots to me.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Even with a trunk gun, I can imagine a scenario where you might be presented with a very difficult choice. In a scenario like this, do you face down a more heavily armed gunman using sound tactics and the pistol you have on you - or do you spend valuable time trying to retrieve a rifle hoping that the badguy doesn't kill more people while that happens or notice you preparing to counterattack?

Definitely a situation with no easy answers...

 

[Burt Blade]

How can any man observe a goblin murdering a woman, and not stand and fight? Mr. Wilson was one of those people who decided that _right_ was more important than survival. He stood in harm's way, and died trying, that others might live.

Despite your best efforts, you may die anyway. In the long run, we are all dead. How you die can be as important as how you live. We seldom get to choose the time and manner of our demise. While I plan to delay the inevitable as long as practical, I certainly could not ask for a much better exit than Mr. Wilson chose. Well, if I have to go down fighting, I want to make sure I take the sons of bitches with me.

The goblins know about armor. Make sure you know about head shots, and can make them when needed. Facing a rifle with a handgun is not an ideal situation, but if you have been doing your job on the practice range, you can fight back and win, even if the other guy has you out ranged and out gunned. Know your point of aim for 50 and 100 yards with the gun you carry. If all you can carry is a little pocket gun, know how far away you can be and still hit a man, and how far for a head shot. Plan how you are going to sneak or rush into range when the other guy has the better gun. Retreating or hiding may not be an option, for survival or moral reasons.

 

[SpookyPistolero]

Much like I'm sure everyone has been doing, I've been thinking about this quite a lot this week. For the first time I too have really been considering having a truck gun. This notion has generally been uncomftorable to approach since I'm in one of the bigger cities of Kentucky and don't want to have that liabililty if someone were to break into my car. ( Incidentally, do those with 'truck guns' remove them from the vehicle every time you get home?)

On the other hand, if presented with a situation like this one, I'm sure going to want more than my carry piece with me. It's incredibly unlikely, but so is the possibility of me needing my carry piece at all, or of needing my fire extinguisher... but we don't balance our lives on 'good odds'.

Bartholomew Roberts makes an excellent point that it might not be worth the time it takes to get back to the car to retrieve a rifle. I hadn't really considered this point until now. I think, first, that this would largely depend on the specific situation. Mainly, however, if it was obvious that the individual was heavily armored and you weren't able to get close enough to make a reliable head shot, then you don't have much choice except the hope of a rifle working.

If your pistol wont be able to solve the problem, then you will be just another dead body in the warpath. And getting your rifle might mean that instead of wasting your life to buy some people a few minutes (hopefully) of time, you could successfully/effectively stop the threat without a question.

I suppose you just have to trust that you'd know whether the situation mandated the risk of personal sacrifice to buy enough time for bystanders, or if the maniac would continue as long as he had the ammo to unless you retrieved the right tool for the job.

Overall, Wilson is absolutely a real hero, though he deserves a better title when the word is so often thrown around these days. I hope a fund for the family gets started, if he had one. I also hope, somehow, his pistol could be part of a memorial, as another poster suggested.

May God place that same spirit in more of our hearts and beliefs.

 

[Randy in Arizona]

alduro

I'm thinking SKS instead of a Mosin though. The 7.62x54 is great but in a situation like that, you may only get 1 or possibly 2 shots. A Wolf FMJ usually has a steel core that will make swiss cheese of any level 3 vest or under.

All of the current production imported 7.62X39 I've seen is lead core to comply with the ban Der Slickmeister put on Eastern Combloc & Chinese surplus 7.62X39 Steel jacketed, Steel cored ammo. (Armor Piercing per BATFe don't ya know!)

Never could figure out why Willy shafted his buddies the PRC just when they were getting good cash for their old, corrosive Korean & 'Nam vintage surplus ammo. Maybe they didn't care after getting Loral's help with their missiles and Los Alamos' help with their nukes.