S&W Boycott, Now I'm confused..

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Under normal circumstances you can't swing a dead cat without smacking into a gaggle of lawyers, yet for some reason none have surfaced.

IIRC Buzz Knox gave us a course in Conscent Decree 101 on this very topic. He explained in graphic detail why the "agreement" was ABT (A Bad Thing).

I tried a forum search but came up with nothing.

Anyone else out there remember Buzz Knox class?

I'll post as soon as I find it.
 
I have a question. If a boycott of S&W somehow does manage to put the company out of business (however not likely) wouldn't that be a win for the anti-gun crowd?

Trying to put one of the largest firearm companies in america out of business is not going to help any of us who really like guns.

And if you think boycotting is going to get S&W to change the agreement it is not going to happen.
 
1) The agreement is dreadful- and if fully enforced would have a dramatic effect on the gun industry as a whole.

2) If S&W wanted to take measures to bury it and start anew -NOW IS THE TIME. It is doubtfull that we'll ever see a more gun friendly administration than the current one.

3) If Hitlery is elected in 2008 (God forbid)- or even if another Democrat is elected in 2008- there is a very good chance that the agreement will be strictly enforced. If not in 2008... then later.

S&W is riding the fence because they can. If more people put pressure on them -even in a positive way- they might spend the time and money to do away with the agreement once and for all.

I'll stick to the pre-agreement guns for now. I'd buy a new one tomorrow if they would take the appropriate action to kill it.
 
Few people fully understand what was going on when the Clinton Administration, ably supported by 30-some cities and state attorney generals – mostly Democrats – attacked the handgun industry. The circumstances are described in the following newspaper article in the “New York Times.†Notice the complete lack of ethics and abuse of power as these back-lot despots tried to take Smith & Wesson, as well as the entire handgun industry down. The “Times†is well known for its left leaning so it is not surprising that the reporter never sees anything wrong.

===============================================================

April 3, 2000, Monday
Metropolitan Desk


DUEL FOR THE LIMELIGHT: A special report; Behind Gun Deal,
2 Ambitious Democrats Wrestle for the Credit



By ERIC LIPTON

Eliot L. Spitzer had arranged quite a celebration to mark his first anniversary as New York State's attorney general. He planned a trip to Las Vegas, as the leader of a negotiating team that with a bit of luck, he figured, would soon deliver a landmark gun control deal.

He booked his plane ride and a hotel reservation at the luxurious Bellagio. But the intervention of another New York Democrat, Andrew M. Cuomo, spoiled Mr. Spitzer's party.

The trip was called off. The talks with gun dealers canceled. And within days, Mr. Cuomo, the United States housing secretary, had secretly managed to restart negotiations, without the attorney general.

A deal ultimately was reached, but when the announcement came two weeks ago in Washington that the nation's oldest and largest handgun manufacturer had agreed to change the way it designs and sells handguns, it was Mr. Cuomo, 42, the eldest son of the former governor, who stood at the podium. Mr. Spitzer, 40, an intense, Harvard-educated lawyer, sat with his hands on his lap, in the background.

''After many false starts and after much gridlock, we are finally on the road to a safer and more peaceful America,'' Mr. Cuomo said.

What had transpired was not just a watershed event in the nation's long-running debate over gun control. For New Yorkers, it was a high-stakes showcase of the intense rivalry that formed between two men considered among the state's most promising -- and ambitious -- Democrats.

Mr. Cuomo, who has already announced his intention to run for governor in 2002, and Mr. Spitzer, who says his sights are not yet set on anything more than a second term as attorney general, espouse similar views on gun control, believing that handguns should be redesigned to make them harder to fire accidentally and easier to trace if they are used in a crime.

But by many accounts, the path to a settlement with Smith & Wesson on March
17 produced a bitter rivalry that colored the negotiations with cities and the gun makers, at times degenerating into angry letters, confrontations at closed-door meetings, dueling press releases and, some have even said, threats of sabotage.

''It has been a kind of running theme throughout the negotiations, the competition for credit,'' said John P. Coale, a Washington lawyer. Mr. Coale has observed and at times been involved in the negotiations, representing cities that have sued the gun manufacturers. ''It was what you see in politics all the time -- people vying for attention. But it got down and dirty and very intense. And it quite came close to hurting the process.''

Ed Shultz, the chief executive at Smith & Wesson, which has come under considerable criticism within the industry for breaking away and settling, has seen his share of negotiators in the last few years. He said the one-upmanship between Mr. Cuomo and Mr. Spitzer was obvious during the talks.

''It is two rich kids trying to be captain of the team,'' Mr. Shultz said. ''They are rivals. There is no question that each one of them wanted to have their own party and each would have been happy to have the party without the other one there, if they could arrange that.''

Mr. Spitzer has publicly complained to the White House and members of Congress about Mr. Cuomo's actions. For his part, Mr. Cuomo insists that there is no personal dispute, and that he did not deliberately exclude Mr. Spitzer. Instead, he said, he was just using the clout of the federal government and the Clinton administration to broker a deal.

But in the two weeks since the settlement, the jockeying has only intensified. Both have initiated national campaigns to persuade local and state governments to shun gun makers who do not sign the pact.

Mr. Spitzer was the first to take the lead last July, holding closed-door meetings with prominent gun makers like Colt's Manufacturing of Hartford and Smith & Wesson of Springfield, Mass. Sporadic talks organized by former Mayor Edward G. Rendell of Philadelphia and others had sputtered, despite a backdrop of threatened or filed lawsuits by more than two dozen cities like Bridgeport, New Orleans, Atlanta and Chicago, which were trying to force gun makers to add safety devices and to pay for the medical treatment of gunshot victims.

Mounting legal bills from those lawsuits troubled some gun makers, who signaled a growing willingness to make some concessions, something Mr. Spitzer hoped to capitalize on. Still, some officials involved in the litigation viewed Mr. Spitzer's entry into talks warily, they said, accusing him of cutting them out of the talks. But Mr. Spitzer had amply shown in his short public career that he was not shy about trying to jump ahead of the
pack.
Mr. Spitzer, the son of a successful real estate developer, grew up in a rarefied world, attending Riverdale Country Day School, Horace Mann School, then Princeton University, before getting his law degree at Harvard. Mr. Spitzer was 35 in 1994, when he first ran for attorney general, and his entire public service consisted of six years as an assistant district
attorney in Manhattan and one year as a federal court clerk. Despite an infusion of money from his father, Mr. Spitzer lost that race. Running again in 1998, he was carried into office with one of the narrowest political victories in the history of New York State.

Since then, Mr. Spitzer has been quick to inject himself into state issues, from air pollution caused by trash trucks to a battle by New York City neighborhood activists to save their community gardens.

From the start of his round of the gun talks, Mr. Spitzer pushed for what he called a code of conduct, which would require changes in the way guns are designed and marketed to make them safer, as well as harder for criminals to buy. His initial proposal, some gun control advocates said, was vague, providing gun makers too many opportunities to avoid compliance.

Mr. Spitzer agreed to revisions advocated by several gun control advocates, including Dennis A. Henigan, legal director of the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence. Ultimately, this revised code served as the framework for the deal Mr. Cuomo reached with Smith & Wesson, requiring safety locks and hidden serial numbers, among other conditions.

But Mr. Spitzer and the negotiating partners he invited to join him -- including Mr. Henigan and representatives from Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Miami -- were never able -- or never had a chance -- to deliver the deal.

Talks started with a small group of gun makers, then were expanded at the gun makers' insistence to include the industry trade group, the National Shooting Sports Foundation, which was much more resistant to the proposals.

Mr. Spitzer was convinced he was making progress. He said last week that his plan all along was to use the intransigence of the industry leaders to persuade companies like Smith & Wesson that it was time to break away.

But by late last year, federal officials, who were not yet involved in the talks, and even some of Mr. Spitzer's negotiating partners had concluded that his drive was going nowhere.

''It was not, in fact, working,'' Mr. Henigan said. One federal official said, ''If he was saying he was close to a deal with Smith and Wesson, that is a pipe dream.''

Mr. Cuomo sensed an opening. He had been consulting with the mayors of New Orleans and Philadelphia about their gun control efforts since before Mr. Spitzer was elected. But the federal government had remained largely on the sidelines as nearly 30 cities and counties filed lawsuits and attorneys general like Mr. Spitzer and Richard Blumenthal of Connecticut got involved.

But by late last year, deciding that federal intervention was needed to invigorate the process, the White House authorized Mr. Cuomo and the Department of Housing and Urban Development to step in. Mr. Cuomo put considerable pressure on the industry by threatening a lawsuit by some of the nation's 32,000 local housing authorities, where gun violence had plagued low-income residents.

Mr. Cuomo said he was also concerned that the different cities suing the industry could not agree to a single settlement without a bit of corralling by federal authorities.

''Eliot was aggressive in taking the lead,'' Mr. Cuomo said. ''New Orleans was taking the lead. Miami was leading it. That was the problem.

''On the federal side, we have jurisdiction over the country. We are at the top of the food chain.''

As the son of Mario M. Cuomo, the former governor, Andrew Cuomo developed his political skills at a young age. In his mid-20's, during the early years of his father's service as governor, Mr. Cuomo served as a dollar-a-year assistant. Mr. Cuomo, who received a law degree from Albany Law School, then briefly worked as a prosecutor in Manhattan, joined a Park Avenue law firm.

He started a group that developed housing for the homeless. During those years, Mr. Cuomo, who drove a Jaguar with license plate AMC ESQ, earned respect for his ability to get things done, but he also built a reputation for arrogance and inflexibility. In 1993, at 35, he became an assistant secretary at HUD, and became President Clinton's housing secretary in 1997.

Initially, Mr. Spitzer welcomed Mr. Cuomo's involvement. Publicly comparing the threat of the lawsuit to a dagger, he said, ''The Feds' is a meat ax,'' implying that federal intervention would only intensify the pressure on gun makers to settle. But by mid-January, friction between the two men had grown noticeable, and many of the officials involved in the talks began to worry.

From the very start of a strategy session on Jan. 13, at the Old Executive Office Building, an annex to the White House, officials from the Departments of Justice and Treasury and lawyers representing cities that had filed lawsuits saw the tension firsthand.

First, in a raised and angry voice, Mr. Spitzer berated a plan by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms to play a central role in monitoring gun industry compliance with any deal. Later, he rejected a suggestion by Mr. Cuomo that Mr. Spitzer expand the negotiating team he had formed to include representatives of HUD, the White House and other cities that had filed lawsuits.
Eight days ahead was the much-anticipated Las Vegas meeting, where Mr. Spitzer envisioned a personal triumph -- finally starting to pull the deal together. But if Mr. Cuomo swelled the ranks of those at the table, Mr. Spitzer warned, it would all fall apart.

''Wait a minute,'' Mr. Spitzer said in an interview last week, recalling the conversation. ''The Vegas meeting won't work if we have 25 people there.'' He said he challenged Mr. Cuomo, asking, ''How as secretary of HUD are you any more qualified than the attorney general of New York and our negotiating team to represent the interest of the parties?''

Several witnesses said later that they felt Mr. Spitzer had been out of line. ''There has been much more interaction between the cities and the secretary of HUD than with the attorney general of the Empire State,'' Mayor Scott King of Gary, Ind., recalls saying in Mr. Cuomo's defense. ''Sure, New York is a big place, but now he was in an even bigger sandbox,'' a Clinton administration official, who asked not to be named, said of Mr. Spitzer. A lawyer who attended the meeting added, ''He should have recognized immediately that he needed to establish a cooperative relationship and figure out what his niche should be instead of beating his head against the Washington wall.''

For a brief moment, Mr. Spitzer re-established his commanding role when the lead gun-industry negotiator, Robert T. Delfay of the National Shooting Sports Foundation, insisted that while gun makers welcomed his attendance at the Las Vegas meeting, they did not want Clinton administration representatives there.

''All they were looking for was an opportunity to stand before a microphone and say look at what we have done,'' Mr. Delfay said. ''As far as Mr. Cuomo was concerned, the motivations were 100 percent political.''

In a conference call among the gun control advocates and federal officials, Mr. Spitzer argued for the negotiations to go forward. But federal officials and other cities decided that no one should attend the meeting because it would signal that the gun makers had dictated who would negotiate for them.

Much to Mr. Spitzer's frustration, the Las Vegas meeting was canceled. Mr. Cuomo secretly made the next move, underscoring the break with Mr. Spitzer and assuming the dominant role that would lead to the settlement.

Mr. Cuomo directed his deputy general counsel, Max Stier, to call Mr. Shultz of Smith & Wesson to pursue a deal. This time, HUD insisted on new conditions, a federal official said.

''He explicitly said this has to be absolutely confidential,'' a federal official said. And in a later conversation, Mr. Shultz, according to a federal official, said that ''in our talks with Eliot, they became talks out in the press,'' implying that Mr. Spitzer should be excluded to avoid leaks to the news media.

Mr. Shultz denied in an interview that he had ever made such a request. And Mr. Spitzer rejects any suggestion that he had been a source of news leaks. In reality, some of Mr. Spitzer's backers said, Mr. Cuomo had his own reason for cutting Mr. Spitzer out: an effort to gain more attention for himself.

By late February, Mr. Spitzer had got wind of the secret talks. He was furious. He telephoned officials at all levels, at HUD, the White House and the Treasury Department, demanding an invitation to the talks. Finally, on March 6, he dispatched an angry, six-page letter to Bruce Reed, the director of domestic policy at the White House.

''Through a series of press announcements, the administration invited itself into the negotiations, only to have the gun manufacturers refuse to meet with you,'' Mr. Spitzer wrote. ''Now it seems that solidarity is a one-way street. In secret, with select manufacturers, the Departments of Treasury and Housing and Urban Development restarted the very negotiations that you, personally, asked our group to eschew.''

To make matters worse, Mr. Spitzer said, once he complained to the White House, no one returned his calls, but Mr. Cuomo's office began to contact the cities to brief them on the effort.

''I hope you understand that we can differentiate between genuine teamwork and the ploy of someone caught with his hand in the cookie jar,'' Mr. Spitzer wrote.

Mr. Spitzer was so angry, a federal official said, that he threatened to torpedo the talks by leaking word of it to the news media unless they included him. Mr. Spitzer denies ever making such a threat. His objections went unanswered and they soon became moot.

Smith & Wesson agreed to the code of conduct. And then Mr. Cuomo won a $60 bet with Mr. Shultz by persuading about 15 of the local governments to sign off on the settlement.

For his part, Mr. Cuomo played down any tension and praised Mr. Spitzer. ''There was never any tension between the two of us personally,'' he said. Mr. Spitzer admits some frustration. ''It is like a running back who takes the ball 90 yards and then somebody else steps in and takes it over the goal,'' Mr. Spitzer said. ''You want to carry the ball across the line.''

Since the agreement was signed, the political jockeying for center stage has continued, practically unabated. Mr. Spitzer rolled out a campaign to persuade local and state governments to give preference to Smith & Wesson guns, unless other companies sign the deal. Two days later, Mr. Cuomo, having teamed with two cities Mr. Spitzer thought he had already recuited, announced his own campaign for governments to buy only from Smith & Wesson.

Several political observers said the rivalry was not likely to end soon, with Mr. Spitzer and Mr. Cuomo continuing to struggle for attention on the New York political stage.

''Gun control is just an incidental tableau,'' said a Democrat who represents New York in Congress.

*************************************
 
I have a question. If a boycott of S&W somehow does manage to put the company out of business (however not likely) wouldn't that be a win for the anti-gun crowd?

The boycott very nearly did put Smith out of business...look it up.

Think of it this way, if you develop testicular cancer, do you keep your boys because they served you well for years? Or do you lop 'em off cause if you keep them they'll kill you?

Think on it.
 
Breaks my heart that a rung on Spitzer's ladder to the governership of the Peoples' Republic of New York broke and dumped him on his all-left brain. Maybe he can score a few points by making sure that Martha Stewart gets to make license plates.

What the heck...no honor among thieves.
 
Anyone who thinks this agreement was the work of a desperate gun-maker breaking the surface and gasping for air just isn't paying attention.

I know for a fact that, aside from his abundant other qualifications to comment, Mike Irwin likes S&W revolvers. On a grossly less informed level, so do I. But Mike and others recognize this was a willing assault by S&W against our God-given rights. For heaven's sake, re-read the agreement! S&W wasn't raped, they put on the CFMPs and perfume and went to the dance.

I can think of a baker's dozen S&W revolvers I'd love to call my own. In the immortal words of Dana Carvey, "not gonna do it...wouldn't be prudent."

Mike, pax, others - thanks for reminding us of what a malignancy this agreement was, and IS.

That article from the New York Crimes. Blech. I need a shower. It's like being a fly on the wall for the Stalin-Hitler negotiations to carve up central Europe. Commence emesis.
 
OneShot: "
...I didn't even hear about the whole issue until after I had made my purchase..,"
______
IMO,
The drive of "actions" boil down to sex, money and greed. It is my responsibility to be responsible for me, in anything. I use THR/TFL and various resources to assist in what I feel is responsible-for me

Naturally having been around and my life experiences, one is going to want you to buy what he stocks, he will not volunteer anything negative about himself, products or services...he will berate his competitor.

Mike Irwin , and pax are better at expressing with words than I. I agree with and have no fault with Mike's works on the subject.pax - as usual , expresses it concise and I agree.

I only buy the OLD S&W revolvers, first because IMO the quality went down, Second, because of the agreement--matter of principal. If next week all is well and good...I still will not buy. The quality, and I don't trust people, I remember, and I don't forget nor forgive easy.

Let it stand as a lesson , a caveat, to others. The reality is S&W doesn't know me, I die tommorrow why should they care? If being responsible, not supporting them, keeping abreast of this and other efforts that step on my rights is all that people remember...well maybe a memory will last of me for 2 or 3 seconds,and maybe in that 3 second time period someone chooses to be informed and responsible.

I could care less about bling bling, I can't write like Irwin or pax, I have no idea how some guns work, know the model #'s and doo dads. I ain't that smart. I keep it simple, My rights are important--period. Hard-headed people like me will be around fighting and doing what we can...I leave the other stuff to the better educated. I am fighting--in my way, first I stay informed, ask questions, and bug the fire out of people for resources and answers.

I adimit it, Irwin is 10 years younger...but a bunch smarter.
 
A question please.


Since the agreement ( which I have read, albeit a while back ) is not law and cannot be repealled what is the mechanism for killing it?

Can S&W just say " we withdraw" ( Vast oversimplification I am sure ), do they have to go to court, does the Gov have to agree to cancel it?

I am not asking if we should get the agreement killed I am asking HOW it could be done, or is the only way to eliminate the agreement is to elimante S&W ?

Thank you

NukemJim
 
an interesting thread...

Most of us - me included - are too hard-headed to agree on this...as I leave this thread...ponder this...

when you buy a 'standard capacity' magazine,

weapon with a gun lock,

weapon on an approved list within your state,

wait 3-5 days for a cool down period before picking up your purchase,

purchase a politically correct AR like rifle,

sell only to an ffl dealer,

perform background checks....

Are you by default debasing everyones second amendment rights? Shouldn't you be boycotted as well...for passively following these 'agreements'? Yes? No?

See that's the same predicament S&W and everyone else is in...the government, our government, elected by us, who represents us, is trampling our constitutional rights. Instead of focussing efforts for goverment reform - the perpetrators of the rights limitations - we bash those who are coerced into doing whats politically correct.

It's very easy for people to say I would do this or that. It's very different when it's your livlihood at stake.

I would argue that the gunlock issue is a huge part of the agreement. See how many other non-signers jumped on the gunlock bandwagon to be pc? You can bet your tail that they are r&d'ing 'smart guns' too. Do they produce high capacity magazines and distribute them despite the ban? If and when a smart gun comes along...it won't only be a S&W...you will see a taurus, ruger, remington, and beretta smart gun hit the shelf within the same quarter.

The real problem is how the second amendment is interpretted - I think if the issue is brought before the supreme court - and S&W wins...all gun owners will win a huge victory. Until then, we as americans will be divided and the take out our frustrations on organizations that have a legacy of supporting our rights based upon a long track record.

Wow...that strengthens us...Lincoln spoke of houses divided...this one barely has a stud to place a beam upon.

Thank you for your discussion,

V/R,

LW
 
Leaky Waders, well put. I love my Smith & Wesson's, Ruger's and I am a Life member of the NRA. The boycotts will not work. And yes I sat and read all of this thread. Very interesting.
 
Love 'em all you want. Smith has failed to repudiate this abomination of an agreement. It is still legally binding. It has the effect of law on manufacturers who never signed it.

Do you understand that the agreement effectively will do more to limit your gun rights that Charles Schumer ever did?

Do you really understand?

We'll revisit this thread during the next Dem's presidency.
 
Relax Thumper. Not everyone has the same thoughts as you. Some people do have their own opinions

Of course they do...and it's not unheard of for them to be able to back those opinions up.

Perhaps you'd care to explain why you do or do not support the agreement?
 
I don't support the agreement, but I also think boycotting S&W is not the answer. In my opinion if you boycott a gun company you are no better than the anti-gun people. Their has to be a better solution to the problem other than trying to put a gun company out of business.
 
I've read some strong opinions on this thread. Has anyone taken their opinions directly to S&W? Send emails? Talk directly to the head people at Smith?

S&W is a business and when they signed the agreement that is what they were thinking. Businesses want to make money, and if that means making compromises, that is what they will do.
I don't think Smith had the intention of saying "To all of our loyal customers we don't care about you".
 
I've read some strong opinions on this thread. Has anyone taken their opinions directly to S&W? Send emails? Talk directly to the head people at Smith?

Partner, I don't know how to say this without sounding mean...

Have you even read this thread?

Yes, emails were sent. Saf-T-Hammer officials were spoken with...at length. Smith and Wesson sales dropped over 60%, possibly more. They came very near to bankruptcy. I assure you, they were aware of the public's anger.

This boycott is the single largest issue that has ever effected S&W. It was front page news on The Wall Street Journal.

How do you propose to argue this very important issue when you don't seem to even understand the basic facts?

Can you perhaps understand some of my frustration?
 
Thumper, for argument sake, say all of us boycotted Smith & Wesson, then Ruger, and they go out of business. What did we accomplish? Nothing! We would fall into the anti-gunners hands and they would thank us. NOT ME!! Instead of a boycott get with the gun makers and find a salutation to the problem. You seam to voice your opinion loud, get people to rally with you to find a solution. Boycotting is not the answer. We all make business decisions to keep in business, it may not always be the best decision but at least one was made.
 
I didn't answer your Question yesterday, Thumper...

Have you actually taken the time to read the agreement? Be honest.

I have read the agreement more than once Thumper (twice), and you had to peel me off the ceiling when I read it. In fact if you search around various old forum threads, I was pro-boycott very early on.
It was after I cooled off (took some time), that putting a gun company out of business wasn't in my (pro-gun) best interest.
I don't have the answer, but jdmb03 has at least part of it.

I don't think Smith had the intention of saying "To all of our loyal customers we don't care about you".

Nor do I think Bill Ruger did either.
 
Thumper, for argument sake, say all of us boycotted Smith & Wesson, then Ruger, and they go out of business. What did we accomplish? Nothing!

Two things, Redhawk:

1.) The boycott is to encourage S&W to repudiate the agreement, not go out of business.

2.) If they DO go out of business, the agreement is no longer enforceable.

Let me ask you to do this...

Describe a gunstore as you see it under the HUD agreement.

Do you understand that there would BE very few gunstores? Do you realize that there would be no more gunshows? Do you realize most of the guns you like would no longer be available?

Please Redhawk...with the agreement in place as you understand it, describe your favorite gunstore. Buy a couple of revolvers in your scenario. I'm waiting...
 
Yes, I understand "the basic facts", they have been said several times over and over again on this thread.

When the emails were sent, was it to the old owners or the new owners? From what I understand the new owners are trying to make changes with the company.

You stated S&W almost came close to bankruptcy, is that a good thing in your opinion?

I can understand why people are frustrated. It is not easy seeing some of your rights as an american taking away by the government. Gun makers are always a target of politicians.

Smith was making a compromise of how to keep the government and the people happy without going out of business.
 
jdmb03, your use of the past tense to describe the situation betrays your misunderstanding.

Is a major manufacturor going out of business a bad thing for gun rights? Superficially, yes.

Unfortunately, a superficial glance at a complex issue begets a superficial understanding.

The agreement is still viable. A repudiation of that agreement can only be effected by financial means.

If you examine the ramifications of that agreement, I think you'll find them intollerable.

Oh well, gun owners reap what they sow...
 
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