S&W M&P 10 - opinions?
- Thread starter B!ngo
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Bgrav321: If mean my LM8, those are what LMT calls "grip panels." They're black polymer or plastic, come in different lengths, and have small "nipples" on the underside for snapping into the screw holes when extra rails are needed. The outer surface on these panels feels a bit like sandpaper for a no-slip grip.
I did weigh my LM8 back when it was set-up in it's "precision" configuration, as below. With the Leupy scope and the 18" SS barrel installed, along with bipod (not seen in the pic) and sling but no mag, if I recall correctly, weight was something like 13 or 14lbs.
Leupy's illuminated Mk 6 1-6x was reputedly the lightest 34mm scope on the market at the time I bought it. Mine has the TMR-D reticle. Running it in an ADM mount. Other stuff includes: Troy irons; Harris BP on an ADM q.d. mount; Geissele trigger; LaRue/Magpul CTR w/ RISR cheekpiece; LaRue Apex grip; shorty foregrip; Magpul sling.
In its "tactical blaster" configuration, I swapped out the 18 SS tube for the 16" C/L barrel with the BABC. I removed the scope, bipod and CTR/RISR c.p., and slipped the factory Sopmod stock back on, since w/o the scope you don't need the RISR.
Just had it on a scale last weekend. Going irons only, with no sling or mag, the rifle weighed 10lbs even. Sorry for this grainy pic:
For those looking at the various options in a .308 AR, just FYI, but the July 2014 issue of American Rifleman has a review of Ruger's piston-operated SR-762 rifle. Per the reviewer, the Ruger sports a 16" fluted barrel and with irons only, it weighs 8lbs 14oz. When you start adding on beyond the iron-sight configuration, these .308 ARs get heavy very fast.
Hope this helps ...
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I can say that I have fired a few rounds out of the SCAR H, and I was not super impressed. Idk if the gun would have been better if I took the the to set it up for me, but I just didnt care for it after a few hundred rounds and moved on. Also, its pretty rough on optics...
wally
Member
CDNN has an M&P .308 on sale at the moment for $1190, just got an Email from them and thought I'd share. I've no affiliation with them, other than as a generally satisfied customer. Specs say tis model with Mag-Pul furniture & iron sights only weighs 8.2 lbs.
http://www.cdnnsports.com/email-specials/smith-wesson-m-p10-308-win-18-blk-mpul-moe-1-20.html
http://www.cdnnsports.com/email-specials/smith-wesson-m-p10-308-win-18-blk-mpul-moe-1-20.html
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
They didn't last long...
SMITH & WESSON M&P10 308 WIN 18" MPUL MOE 1-20 firearm
Manufacturer: SMITH & WESSON
Model: M&P10
Caliber: 308 WIN
Capacity: 20
Barrel Length: 18"
Finish: BLACK
SKU: SMI311314
UPC: 022188150919
Out of Stock
$1,189.99
SMITH & WESSON M&P10 308 WIN 18" MPUL MOE 1-20 firearm
Manufacturer: SMITH & WESSON
Model: M&P10
Caliber: 308 WIN
Capacity: 20
Barrel Length: 18"
Finish: BLACK
SKU: SMI311314
UPC: 022188150919
Out of Stock
$1,189.99
These comments have been very helpful:
Only one that clearly cites reliability problems
Not many statements citing that the SCAR was overwhelmingly better for the $
Seems to have interest in left handed shooters (like myself)
Seems to have an edge on lower weight (which is my preference)
Mention of some other piston-AR-heavy's - but I'm not headed there
As I discussed with my FFL, in buying the AR10, the only thing left will be the emotional, 'perhaps I would have been happier with the SCAR'!
But it looks like I'll be buying the AR10 when time comes.
B
Only one that clearly cites reliability problems
Not many statements citing that the SCAR was overwhelmingly better for the $
Seems to have interest in left handed shooters (like myself)
Seems to have an edge on lower weight (which is my preference)
Mention of some other piston-AR-heavy's - but I'm not headed there
As I discussed with my FFL, in buying the AR10, the only thing left will be the emotional, 'perhaps I would have been happier with the SCAR'!
But it looks like I'll be buying the AR10 when time comes.
B
It's not. The SCAR uses proprietary mags, so, i.e., you can't use PMags at least w/o modification. Right now, MagPul's 7.62 PMags are reliable, cheap and available for those 7.62/.308 ARs that can run them.
I handled the SCAR 17S at my LGS, which, at the time had it priced at $3200. That's significantly more than what my 16" LMT LM8 cost including the extra 18" SPR barrel. The SCAR 17S was nice and light-weight, but it's not nice enough to justify the cash outlay and then have to fork over more $$$ for a stash of proprietary mags to feed it.
A lot of guys rave about the SCAR, but the British looked at it and passed for LMT's 7.62 MRP MWS.
henschman
Member
It's not just me that has had reliability issues... if you look around online, you will see that M&P 10s being undergassed with too small of a gas port is a common problem.
Agree w/ Henschman, as I've read the same accounts of undergassing w/ the M&Ps.
At least some of those guys had their local (AR-knowledgable) 'smith open up the gas port to get consistent functioning. There are also reports that some AR-10 variants will shoot 308 ammo fine but choke on 7.62 mil surp stuff.
At least some of those guys had their local (AR-knowledgable) 'smith open up the gas port to get consistent functioning. There are also reports that some AR-10 variants will shoot 308 ammo fine but choke on 7.62 mil surp stuff.
Gtscotty
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I would bet that the vast majority of M&P 10s work fine, sort of like how the vast majority of Glocks will never go kaboom, but a relatively few examples on the internet have convinced lots of people that it's a common occurrence. I've not had any problems with my M&P, but I have read about a some instances of short stroking, of those many seemed to get better with decent ammo and some break in. A few required the gas port to be opened up, but even that is not really the end of the world.
That was my first reaction and hope it's the case because that's where I'm leaning. I'm glad CDNN was out because I want to spend more time thinking. But the weight of the basic M&P is still very appealing. I'm coming off a relationship with a poorly balanced and somewhat heavy AR15 and don't want to repeat it. In fact that bad relationship motivated me to build two AR15's that are both lightweight and have top-shelf parts. But I don't intend to do with for a .308.
And though I agree with agtman (great pics and comments on the LR8 btw) that the weigh piles on quickly on these things, they all have a starting weight from which to begin the add-ons. Seems that unless that weight was artificially achieved and has to be compensated for before it is useful that it's a good goal.
It's not clear that the M&P10 is missing anything that has to be added to equal the needed function of a basic semi-auto .308. It it is, that would be important to know as well.
I will repeat that that LR8 is a beauty though (but I also agree that the interchangeable barrel thing - which I suspect has been motivated by various defense department solicitations - is theory only and not very practical).
B
And though I agree with agtman (great pics and comments on the LR8 btw) that the weigh piles on quickly on these things, they all have a starting weight from which to begin the add-ons. Seems that unless that weight was artificially achieved and has to be compensated for before it is useful that it's a good goal.
It's not clear that the M&P10 is missing anything that has to be added to equal the needed function of a basic semi-auto .308. It it is, that would be important to know as well.
I will repeat that that LR8 is a beauty though (but I also agree that the interchangeable barrel thing - which I suspect has been motivated by various defense department solicitations - is theory only and not very practical).
B
That analogy with the Glocks doesn't work for the simple reason that there are - what? - a million Glock models floating around and, relative to that volume, only a small percentage of them (most typically, one of the "Fortay" models) have KABOOM-ed.
The M&P 308s, like the Ruger's piston 7.62 rifle mentioned above, are Johnny-come-latelys to the .308 AR market compared to the established players, like Armalite or DPMS. Colt's 901 is getting out there as well. Others include LaRue's OBRs. Price-points vary. But with the newer models there are fewer user experiences to assess, and the early reports of undergassing aren't encouraging. Not trashing the M&P at all. I really liked the .308 camo "hunting" model w/ the thicker barrel. Plus, from a business perspective, the 308 AR-market is too lucrative for Smith not to get the gas-port issue resolved, not to mention their own administrative interest in avoiding the headaches associated with rifles being returned for warranty work. (You shouldn't have to throw money at an AR 'smith to get your .308 gas-rifle running properly - that's the factory's job under warranty).
I agree the gas-port issue is resolvable, but with any of these .308/7.62 ARs you have to go into them with eyes wide open - in other words, you need to know up front exactly what you're getting.
For example, there's the expensive, high-end GAP-10 .308 rifle. It's designed from the git as a "precision" gas-gun that'll shoot bug-holes out to any distance the shooter can see and hold. However, GAP's owner tells his customers up front that the GAP-10 is tightly-chambered and will reliably shoot only .308 factory Match-grade ammo, typically within a small window of 168gn-178gn bullets loaded to a specific velocity. No 7.62 ammo at all. If you handload, there's no room for slop and he advises using small-base .308 Match dies to guarantee reliable functioning. If you're okay with these limitations and have the cash to invest and a penchant for the meticulous handloading of Match-quality ammo, the GAP-10 is a outstanding .308 gas-gun and will hold it's value over time.
In my case I wasn't looking for "bug-holes."
I wanted a rifle that would run reliably with either 308 or mil-surp 7.62 ammo as well as, occasionally, my reloads. I was looking for reasonable accuracy from a 16" rifle and wanted one with the SR-25-pattern lower so it would accept PMags and avoid the need to get spendy on proprietary mags. In fact, LMT ships the MWS & LM8 with one 20-rd PMag.
My LM8 has run 100% regardless of ammo type, and it shoots superbly. Just what I know ...
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It's an unfortunate choice of words to describe the M&P-10 as under-gassed. I'm guilty of saying so too. In reality, it's gassed just right to run full pressure commercial ammo.
There are AR makers that are known to cut corners by running large gas port in their barrels to ensure their rifles will run using cheap ammo loaded to low pressures and when these same rifles are used with good, full pressure ammo, felt recoil is harsh, ejection reliability is impacted and carrier bounce becomes evident. Parts wear is accelerated. Over gassing is one of the points the lower quality AR makers take a beating for. Yet, S&W is taking a beating because they ported the the Big Smith to function reliably on full pressure commercial loads without battering itself to death.
Three things- 1) The M&P-10 does shoot itself in. It gets better as it's shot more
3) It works fine with full pressure commercial loads
2) The gas port can always be opened up a little bit
There are AR makers that are known to cut corners by running large gas port in their barrels to ensure their rifles will run using cheap ammo loaded to low pressures and when these same rifles are used with good, full pressure ammo, felt recoil is harsh, ejection reliability is impacted and carrier bounce becomes evident. Parts wear is accelerated. Over gassing is one of the points the lower quality AR makers take a beating for. Yet, S&W is taking a beating because they ported the the Big Smith to function reliably on full pressure commercial loads without battering itself to death.
Three things- 1) The M&P-10 does shoot itself in. It gets better as it's shot more
3) It works fine with full pressure commercial loads
2) The gas port can always be opened up a little bit
4) Another variable here: you'll also find some .308 AR users reporting that they are experimenting w/ different buffer and recoil springs weights not only to get reliable function, but also to smooth out the recoil impulse - and not just M&P owners but others too.
Clint @ HeavyBuffers sells these buffers & springs in various combos.
http://heavybuffers.com/ar10rifle.html
My LM8 came w/an H3 buffer; not sure whether the stock recoil spring is XP or not.
4) Another variable here: you'll also find some .308 AR users reporting that they are experimenting w/ different buffer and recoil springs weights not only to get reliable function, but also to smooth out the recoil impulse - and not just M&P owners but others too.
Clint @ HeavyBuffers sells these buffers & springs in various combos.
http://heavybuffers.com/ar10rifle.html
My LM8 came w/an H3 buffer; not sure whether the stock recoil spring is XP or not.
The M&P-10 is tuned to run with a carbine buffer and full power ammo. Going to a heavier buffer will cause short stroking, especially with NATO pressure ammo
It is really funny how all this praise was poured onto the MP 10 before it was proven after years and lots of guys using them. It is the newest kid on the block. If I want a revolver I go to S&W
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HK not that accurate? HK (the real ones) were noted for their out-of-box accuracy. The tradeoff is that they're not as ergonomic as the FN-FAL and their balance sucks compared to others. The bulky triangular like handguard doesn't help either.
I would think just go to the next size bit of the hole that is there. Fire it and go from there. It will not take much one size over will make a difference
Reloadron
Contributing Member
Using a drill press how do you plan to index the barrel?
I don't know what the exact hole diameter should be. I have seen numbers like .068" but haven't a clue how true that is. I don't own one. What you need to do is find out what it should be and then using accurate pin gauges see exactly what you have. Barrels like this are generally run on a CNC machine and I'll bet if I compare the first barrel in a lot to the last barrel in a lot I'll get two different numbers due to tool wear. Use a pin gauge to see exactly what you have.
You do not just toss the barrel in a drill press and if you do good lock on getting it indexed correctly. You would use a good mill and drill and need a good fixture to get the hole at 12 O'clock. Then you drill with the correct bit and even with that done the hole should be reamed to clean it up. That done you use another pin gauge to make sure that you are where you want to be. Doing it correctly is not as simple as using a drill press to enlarge a hole in a barrel.
Ron
The gas port hole is indexed at the factory. All you're doing is following the existing hole. The biggest risk is breaking through too fast, hitting the bore and causing a drill start opposite the port.
Before opening up the gas port, make sure it's the source of your problem. If you do open up the port, do so in small steps and test fire the rifle for function. Small changes can have large affects. Go too large and an adjustable gas block will be needed to fix it
Before opening up the gas port, make sure it's the source of your problem. If you do open up the port, do so in small steps and test fire the rifle for function. Small changes can have large affects. Go too large and an adjustable gas block will be needed to fix it
Reloadron
Contributing Member
I agree the original gas port hole was indexed for hole location at the factory. My point was if we use for example a drill press to enlarge the hole how true to hole center do we need to be? How much barrel rotation would be allowable? The hole is at let's say 12:00 O'clock so how much rotation before any change will matter? How do we know the original hole is in fact at 12:00 O'clock? Then once we do drill and enlarge the hole should it not be followed up using a correct size reamer to clean up the sides of the hole assuming the hole was true to original center? How can we follow the existing hole if the barrel is anchored down?
If there is a concern of going through the bore the drill can use a stop. I read somewhere an M&P 10 hole is .068" and I read somewhere that a Ranier Select barrel is .074. I have no clue if those numbers are any good which I why I suggested using a pin gauge set so you know exactly where you are starting from.
Ron
Ron
lovethosesooners
Member
I have had excellent results with mine so far-it's one of my absolute favorite rifles-very accurate, reliable (had 1 short stroke out of 157 rounds so far), lightweight.
I can't think of a single thing I DON'T like about it.
I can't think of a single thing I DON'T like about it.
Gtscotty
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I guess you could argue that it also doesn't work, because unlike with a Kaboom, if your M&P 10 short strokes, it doesn't self destruct and potentially maim you or someone next to you. But With either argument you would be missing the point of my analogy, I'm not talking about total quantities of a gun out there having issues, I'm talking about the percentage of a certain gun out there having issues, and more importantly the perception of the percentage of a certain gun having a given issue.
It's well established that people are far more likely to go online and post reviews on a product they have issues with or are unsatisfied with, than one they have had no problems with. It doesn't matter what the item is, or whether there have been 10k, or 10 million sold, a small percentage of bad internet reviews can give the impression that a much larger percentage of these items, perhaps even most of these items have the same issue when it's just not true. As an example, there have been several threads about the M&P 10, with lots of satisfied owners, but we are stuck here talking about the few unlucky souls that had some problems with their rifles as if they are representative of everyone.
Mistwolf hit the nail on the head, the M&P is made to run on full power .308, not necessarily some of the cheaper, weaker imported 7.62x51 loads floating around, heck it even says it right there on the barrel ".308 Win", not "7.62x51mm". If your rifle will run the cheaper mil stuff (mine doesn't have a problem with it), that's great, but its really made to run real .308 win.
It sounds like the LM8 meets all of your requirements, when I was shopping for .308 self loader, I wanted to stay below the $1500 mark. When I found my rifle on sale for $1200, I pounced, and have been quite pleased with the results. I'm sure the LM8 is a more refined rifle, but in my situation, I couldn't justify spending the extra $1k+ on what would be essentially a range toy for me.
Slow down, there. You're reading way too much into this. It's very easy to simply follow the hole. So easy, it can be done with a hand drill.
It does not matter if the original hole is perfectly located or not, because the rifle functions with the hole where it's at. Even so, if the port were off a little, what are you gonna do about it? How are you going to pull the hole so it is located exactly?
The hole does not have to be perfectly round to flow gas. If your drill-fu is a little weak and the hole comes out a little oblong, it won't matter unless it enlarges the port enough to over-gas the system.
It's a simple task to line up the drill press with the existing hole. Just place a pin gauge or drill rod in the hole so it sticks out and align the drill. But it can be done with a hand drill. Be cautious because drill bits that small (.067 is a #95) are easily broken
I didn't say "Don't drill the port" because it might cause a drill start. That's a caution. I'm saying be aware that if you neglect to take precautions against it, you could cause a drill start in the barrel.
I did not say to not gauge the original hole. You have to gauge it or you'll have no idea what size you're starting with. If you don't have a set of pin gauges, you can use the drills in a drill index. But I'd advise against simply drilling it to .074 inches just because that's the port size of the Rainier barrel. It may be too large or too small. Open the port a step and test fire it before enlarging it further (a #94 bit is .071 and a #93 is .075)
If anything I just wrote doesn't make any sense, do yourself a favor and take your rifle to a gunsmith who is knowledgeable about ARs, for a consultation
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