S&W Masterpiece Fitz

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BVZ24

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A buddy of mine returned from a show with this S&W K-38 Masterpiece Fitz special K-13xxxx and he wanted to know more about it and it's potential value. The price paid is average for a K-38. The bore is nice and general condition sits at around NRA good in my opinion. It has tight lockup and is one of the smoothest revolvers I have worked recently. What is confusing us is the purpose and origin of the "Elmer Keith" stamp on the frame. The seller claimed that the revolver was sent to Kieth for tuning. Thankfully he bought the revolver and not the story and didn't pay (much) more than average.
We had two thoughts that may discredit the claim.
#1. Elmer Keith is known more for 44 magnum and .357. A paltry .38 spl would be like tuning a bb gun to the rest of us.
#2. John Fitzgerald and Keith knew each other, and Fitz generally preferred to modify Colts. Fitzing is a relatively easy modification and could be done by any competent smith.
Thoughts?
 

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I have absolutely no answers to any of your questions. But here is a forum for everything about Smith & Wesson: https://smith-wessonforum.com/ There ought to be people there with the kind of specialized knowledge that your questions require. The internet is a big place, so I would not be surprised if there was an Elmer Keith forum or website that could be helpful as well.

Please let us know if you find anything out. I had no idea there were guns stamped "ELMER KEITH", or S&W Model 15's with Fitz-style trigger guards, or even with that kind of grip. I'd very much like to know more.

Oh, and I don't think Keith was a snob about calibers. He liked powerful calibers, but from what I recall, he respected any good cartridge that was appropriate for the purpose it was used for. Even low-powered ones like 32 Long, if it was used for small game. And I think he would be fine with any good quality revolver, which the S&W Model 15 certainly was.
 
Hmmm. To my limited knowledge, the Fitz treatment was usually done to shorter barreled, more concealable revos...which doesn't describe this gun. Doesn't make it uninteresting, especially since your friend didn't spend too much.
Moon
 
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Unfortunately, your friend overpaid for that revolver. The grips are worth the most on that package. I have a set of stamps, whose name would you like to see on what firearm? Without ironclad documentation, that name means nothing. And, are we even talking about THE Elmer Keith? How many Elmer Keith’s are there?

The Fitz Specials were not very well received. Fitzgerald himself liked them and maybe 5 or 6 others. Most saw the cut triggerguard as a hazard. If it bent upwards, it jammed the trigger.

As I said, sorry to be the bearer of bad news. If you friend wants to sell the stocks, have him contact me.

Kevin
 
StrawHat said:
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Unfortunately, your friend overpaid for that revolver. The grips are worth the most on that package. I have a set of stamps, whose name would you like to see on what firearm? Without ironclad documentation, that name means nothing. And, are we even talking about THE Elmer Keith? How many Elmer Keith’s are there?

The Fitz Specials were not very well received. Fitzgerald himself liked them and maybe 5 or 6 others. Most saw the cut triggerguard as a hazard. If it bent upwards, it jammed the trigger.

As I said, sorry to be the bearer of bad news. If you friend wants to sell the stocks, have him contact me.

Kevin
Click to expand...
What is the story with those grips, anyway? I have a Model 15 from the 1960's (I think) that has diamond Magna's, and they do NOT look like those. Are those pre-WWII Magna type grips, or what?

Also, I googled Colt revolver Fitz conversion. It turns out there is a Wikipedia article about it. John Henry Fitzgerald was his full name. He bobbed the barrel, the hammer, and often the grips as well as cutting away the trigger guard. I hope he modified the lockwork to double-action-only, too, because I hate to think of someone trying to cock that bobbed hammer. Also, he died in 1945 (I had to google that seperately.)

So this gun might still be a good shooter, but the Fitz-style trigger guard is probably more of a minus than a plus, considering that it is not a good thing for safety.
 
Monac said:
What is the story with those grips, anyway? I have a Model 15 from the 1960's (I think) that has diamond Magna's, and they do NOT look like those. Are those pre-WWII Magna type grips, or what?
…
Click to expand...
Diamond Magnas, for any frame, are sought by folks who have bought revolvers of that era, but have other stocks on them.

I collect 45 ACP, N frames. You would be surprised at how many come with rubber grips on them!

Kevin
 
StrawHat said:
Diamond Magnas, for any frame, are sought by folks who have bought revolvers of that era, but have other stocks on them.

I collect 45 ACP, N frames. You would be surprised at how many come with rubber grips on them!

Kevin
Click to expand...
Well, no, I wouldn't because I have had a number of S&W revolvers and I have almost always put aftermarket stocks on them. The only exception I can think of is a 3-inch round-butt Model 547. The factory grips on that were fine.

But what I mean was these Magnas are different from other Magnas of my experience, including diamond Magnas. They remind me of the Magnas on some 357 Registered Magnums, like this one: https://www.legacy-collectibles.com/ultra rare, boxed u.s. post office smith & wesson registered magnum - finest known.html

I am not saying that is what they are, just that they seem unusual to me, but I don't know enough about S&W grips to say how.
 
Monac said:
Well, no, I wouldn't because I have had a number of S&W revolvers and I have almost always put aftermarket stocks on them. The only exception I can think of is a 3-inch round-butt Model 547. The factory grips on that were fine.

But what I mean was these Magnas are different from other Magnas of my experience, including diamond Magnas. They remind me of the Magnas on some 357 Registered Magnums, like this one: https://www.legacy-collectibles.com/ultra rare, boxed u.s. post office smith & wesson registered magnum - finest known.html

I am not saying that is what they are, just that they seem unusual to me, but I don't know enough about S&W grips to say how.
Click to expand...
Just an earlier pattern, correct for pre-WW2, but used for some years after, at least into the early '50s.
 
Monac said:
I hope he modified the lockwork to double-action-only, too, because I hate to think of someone trying to cock that bobbed hammer.
Click to expand...
Always in a quandary after taking off the hammer spur. Two buddies dropped their Chief, and broke the spur. I left the sear in, just in case someone did try to cock it; the single action sear would keep it from falling on a primer.
Getting the hammer un-cocked would be another matter.
BTW, the one guy carried his Chief in a IWB holster, shoved in the top of his boot. Descending some marble stairs, he saw his gun, going end over end, down the stairs like a Slinky. The good news, the gun didn't go off; the bad, the spur shattered.
Moon
 
I had some of the same thoughts about the difficulty of proving anything. I also think the Fitz is neat, but has it's place in 30's colts. Personally I wouldn't mind a well done Fitz on an Colt M1917 for the oddity, but I would rather not see another M1917 be ruined.
After he brought it out, I thought this revolver looked familiar, and here it is.
From_Russia_With_Love-Ian_Fleming-First_edition.jpg
It's on a cover of the original Bond novel. Perhaps this was the inspiration for Mr. Hacksaw?
I'd tell him to swap the grips, get the book, and sell them together.

I'll pass on the thoughts on value and that the Fitz generally reduces it. Would the S&W Letter process help find any sort of information beyond the original wholesaler being the original frame was a premium model?
 
BVZ24 said:
It's on a cover of the original Bond novel.
Click to expand...

I read an article in The Handgunner, Ltd. by Geoffrey Boothroyd who said he set up the revolver as depicted in the cover painting at a time shortly after WWII when surplus guns were common and new ones hardly available at all.

This is a British Service Revolver that has had the trigger guard cut out, the barrel cut off, and the butt rounded.
Add a ramp sight with "gold" blade, adjustable rear sight, nickel plated cylinder, jeweled hammer and trigger, and commercial grips sanded down to fit.
The painter even got in proof marks and shows the "H&Wesson" where the barrel roll mark was sawn through.
 
StrawHat said:
I collect 45 ACP, N frames. You would be surprised at how many come with rubber grips on them!
Click to expand...
Yep. Back in the day, taking off the OEM coke-bottles was seen as an 'improvement'. Now, minty cokes are $100 on a good day.
Unhappily, the current Ns come with Altamont's take on cokes, which look great, but are waaaaaaay to thin at the top of the grip. Put a set of Eagles on a 25-15.
Moon
 
From "COLT AN AMERCAN LEGEND", R.L. Wilson wrote this about H.J. Fitz-Gerald: " The subtype which holds the greatest intrigue is the Fitz-Gerald Special.

The inventor was a showman and a ballistics expert who worked for Colt's from 1918 to 1944.
His somewhat autobiographical book "Shooting" is still a useful source on the subjects of the "quick draw" and law enforcement use of handguns.
Only about a hundred Detective Specials were constructed following his personal specs, and they command premiums from collectors".

Typically removing a substantial portion of the trigger guard, bobbing the hammer, and shortening the ejector rod went into the customization for the Fitz-Gerald Special.
 
Monac said:
Well, no, I wouldn't because I have had a number of S&W revolvers and I have almost always put aftermarket stocks on them. The only exception I can think of is a 3-inch round-butt Model 547. The factory grips on that were fine.

But what I mean was these Magnas are different from other Magnas of my experience, including diamond Magnas. They remind me of the Magnas on some 357 Registered Magnums, like this one: https://www.legacy-collectibles.com/ultra rare, boxed u.s. post office smith & wesson registered magnum - finest known.html

I am not saying that is what they are, just that they seem unusual to me, but I don't know enough about S&W grips to say how.
Click to expand...
They look like the top has been sanded to give a more rounded appearance.

As far as it being a Fitz. I believe that is more of a reference to the style than a claim that it was done by Fitzgerald
 
Of course, it could be restored. Someone is selling revolver that have the frames cut in two. Finding the correct frame, cut the triggerguard, match it to the frame and weld it in place. Frames are not hardened so that is not an issue. Or find a good welder and it becomes less of an issue.

It could be restored.

Kevin
 
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