SA Loaded surprises

[Wichaka]

Okay Tuner here's aproblem I encountered last night......
I picked up a new SA loaded last month and have put about 500 rounds thru it. Drives tacks I tell ya.

I picked up the parts to change out the internals.......Brown H/Core Hammer, Nowlin sear, Briley Dis., Nowlin sear spring, got rid of the ILS and changed it out for a Brown MS housing & a Wolff 23lb MS.
Anyway, here's the 2 surprises I encountered.........

1) The back of the lower lug on the barrel (right side) had a slight peen mark, on the back of the lug on the corner edge (looking from the throat end.) I took a closer look at the lugs & took a measurement, the right side is .003 closer to the throat than the other side. Just enough to make all the impact on the one side. I immediately fixed that.

2) I then detailed stripped the frame to put in all the parts above, and noticed that only one hammer hook had a shine on it. The other hook was never in contact with the sear, as it still had the blueing on it.
I looked at the sear, and it showed that it in fact the one side had never been in contact with hook.

Needless to say I was very surprised and a bit dissapointed. The hammer, sear & disconnect are not MIM. The sear and Disconnect seem to be cast, and I think the hammer is too. The grip safety is mim, didn't find anything else that was mim on this particular gun. The slide stop is cast.

I'm getting very aggitated over the lack of quality control. I had heard very good things about SA, but then haven't heard much about the internal parts fit. But on the other hand, it keeps my shop busy.......and my pockets lined.

 

[Old Fuff]

Since Tuner lives on the wrong side of the country he may have given up on us by now and gone to bed. I'm sure he'll be back in the morning.

It does appear that the gun's maker isn't paying attention to the small details that can make a big difference.

It seems that the lugs on the barrel are not machined perpendicular to the bore, which is quite possible but unusual. I would suggest that you check the slide for any indication of wear or peening in the grooves. Also check the pin on the slide stop. There is a remote chance the hole in the frame for the slide stop might have been drilled at an angle, which would cant the barrel and cause the wear you described.

It is my educated hunch that these guns are proving to be so popular they are being made too fast, and an associated lack of effective quality control is an unintended consequence.

It appears that they can’t do any better on hammers then they can on barrels. Fortunately with an exchange of parts this will become a moot point. However, before I invested any more money in this particular gun I would check it over very carefully.

 

[1911Tuner]

Loaded Up!

Hey hey hey!
Just saw this one...

The issue at the rear of the bottom lug is one that crops up from time to time...not often, but often enough to check for it on any new gun. easy fix, though...and even easier if QC had the time or the inclination to do the job.

The hammer hooks not hittin' the sear on both sides is common. A quick test to see is to boost the hammer a little and see if the trigger pull increases out of proportion to the amount of boosting force...which is
precisely why boosting the hammer helps a good many factory triggers.

Sometimes it's due to the hammer or sear pin not being straight...and sometimes it's the hooks or the sear crown not being square and even
from one side to the other. Sometimes it's due to the sear and hammer pin holes being on the high side of tolerance, and the pin(s) on the small side. Gotta check'em all to see which it is...

Honestly, I'm not all that anal about both hooks bearing evenly on the sear,
as long as the pins are straight and in-spec with the holes, and the hammer and sear aren't made out of pressed beer cans and other
"Near Steel" substitutes. Think about it...One hook is wearing while the other remains pristine for several thousand rounds. The one wears in and the other one starts to take part of the load. The untouched one wears more gradually because it's got help with that load. One hook wears in and gets square, while the other one maintains the undersquare, captive angle. Makes for a safer trigger throughout the life of the gun.

Short, 90 degree hammer hooks that both hit the sear equally are better suited to match-tuned guns that won't cost you your life if Murphy gets involved. A pure fighting tool is a different animal...something that many people have lost sight of in the last 2 decades.


Wonder if JMB meant for it to be that way...

Just food for thinkin'...Other opinions may differ greatly, but won't
change my mind. (Papa always did tell me that I had a funny way of lookin' at things.)

Cheers!

Tuner

 

[Old Fuff]

Face it, the Old Fuff is fussy ...

I always check to be sure there is contact on both hammer hooks, and correct the situation if there isn’t to prevent uneven wear on the sear. Usually one file stroke will do it, unless the problem is really, really bad. This of course presumes that the hammer hooks are not right, and it isn’t something else.

I just noticed that the BOTTOM barrel lug is the one in question, not the locking lugs. Disregard my comments on this in my earlier post. The Fuff will now go out to his station wagon and get the "lug wrench," that he is sure is the proper tool for this job ...

 

[1911Tuner]

Fussy Fussy Fuff

Howdy Fuff! Looks like Wichaka is sleepin' in.

I like to see both hooks on the sear too...I just don't get too
bent outta shape if they ain't.

The one problem with that 20-dollar file is that it's square.
I like to keep a light captive angle on the hooks. Neatly solved that little issue by usin' a surface grinder to grind an 89 degree angle on a 3/8ths high speed steel lathe blank. I just use the undersquare corner and a dab of 600-grit lap dope to dress the hook that needs dressin' and when I get'em both on the sear, I switch to 5 micron lap to make'em smooth...
takes about 8-10 light strokes...Boost the hammer with oil about 5 times and go shoot it a hundred or two rounds...Voila! A smooth, trigger that will NOT let the hammer follow and breaks at about 5.5 pounds, which feels
like about 4.5 pounds...Neat!

Waitin' on Wichaka...

 

[Old Fuff]

I've done much the same, but I ground up an old file (no teeth) and then hardened it until it was harder then a banker's heart.

Too many misguided folks try to stone the hooks with whatever square rock they have available, with predictable results. Even fewer know how to use a straight edge to see if one hook is advanced in front of the other after someone else did a trigger pull job ... sure ...

 

[1911Tuner]

Stonin' the Hooks

Too many misguided folks try to stone the hooks with whatever square rock they have available, with predictable results. Even fewer know how to use a straight edge to see if one hook is advanced in front of the other after someone else did a trigger pull job ... sure

Roger THAT! I've spent way too much time turnin' these
pistols back into semi-autos after either livin' life as sub-guns
for a short time, or hand-operated single shots...

My favorites are the sears and hammers that get Dremelized with
a buffin' head and jeweler's rouge. Usually takes about 500
rounds to go south...dependin' on how much they get "improved".
Yeeeeeeehaaaaaaaa! Turbogun!

 

[Wichaka]

Okay, better late than never.

The peening on the lug, is close to where the lug meets the barrel. Right on the corner edge.

As for the sear, ........I'm ahead of you here. mic'd everything in site........including the dog.........uh.......will discuss that later.
Anyway, everything seems to be within JMB specs. The sear and disconnect after closer viewing, are both MIM. Put a staright edge on the sear.........it ain't straight, no way, no how. The trigger pull out of the box was a good 6 1/4lbs, with very noticable catch right before hammer drop. The hammer hooks look to be cut straight.

The wear on the slide stop pin shows even wear. So they got the lugs cut even, just the back of the lugs aren't.

Put all the parts in, and now have a 5 1/4lb pull no creep. Will take it out later today for the firing check........

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

Wichaka said:

The peening on the lug, is close to where the lug meets the barrel. Right on the corner edge.

Yep..The radius wasn't to spec. It happens. Cause any problem with the locking lugs?
_______________________

The trigger pull out of the box was a good 6 1/4lbs, with very noticable catch right before hammer drop.

'Bout par...Find a ragged edge on the sear or deep captive angle on the hooks? Burr on one hook? One hook longer than the other?
Don't keep us in suspense man!

5 and 1/4 is perfect. Good show!

Yep...The hammer, sear, and disconnect are all MIM in that Springer.
If ya don't get it outta there, Fuff is gonna dispatch an A-10. He's got friends...

Standin' by for the rest of the story.

Tuner

 

[Old Fuff]

That A-10 Warthog flyer won't go, unless he gets a genuine 1911 pistol like his great-grandpappy had during the First War.

So I got to get that trigger back ....

 

[1911Tuner]

Warthog Pilot

Old Fuff said:

That A-10 Warthog flyer won't go, unless he gets a genuine 1911 pistol like his great-grandpappy had during the First War.

Aha! So he's a mercenary huh? Runs sorties for the highest bidder
huh? What's his phone number?

 

[Old Fuff]

Now Tuner ...

You well understand that some people will do...

ANYTHING TO GET .....

A gunuine 1911 .45 pistol like their great-grandpappy carried during the Big War ....

Besides he's tired of flying up and down the border looking for bait ...

So are you going to return that trigger????

Thought not ...

 

[Wichaka]

Haven't been on here lately, as my shop is getting back logged. Between my other biz (horse packing), work, family etc., didn't have much time to get on here.......

Like I said, I fixed the peening problem. Put 200 rounds thru her yesterday, no more peening. The lugs themselves are okay, just the one side was having a fight with the frame. No more.........

The one and only hook that was making contact, had a sizable burr on the edge.
I made a msitake on the dissconnct I used, it was a Brown match. Was not too happy with the fit. It protruded into the mag well quite a bit.........more than I've seen from others. I had to take quite a bit off it so it wouldn't cause problems with the mag falling free. So how do the Brileys fit?

No more mim in my gun, except for the grip safety. But I think that should do fine, unless the the trigger stop arm breaks off...............

Now for another surprise. I worked on a frineds SA SS Champion model. Its just a bit shorter than the commander.

1) The sear nose was so thin that it was impossible to cut the relief angle, plus it didn't match up into the hammer hooks. QC?

So I recut the sear nose so it would fit into the hooks better, and then just kissed the relief side about 4 strokes just to break the edge. Squared up the hooks, took out the ILS, put in a 23lb main spring, & got a 5 1/2lb pull........down from 6 3/4lbs.

2) There was a vertical ledge on the end of the slide stop, where the plunger rides. It put so much pressure on the slide stop it would not lock back. No matter what mag I tried. Although it did lock back 3 times, but barely caught the slide causing that spot to peen. Plus it was a bear to get in past the plunger. In taking a measurement, it was .010 longer than any of the other SA slide stops I have. I don't believe the final machining was done went it was shoved out the door.

So I recut the face on the stop taking it back to the other SA stop specs, then put a bevel on the edge to make it snap in past the plunger easier. Now, it works like it should and fully engages the slide..........as it should.

Ya know, I thought SA's were pretty good guns, now I know why they are going out the door so cheap! Not being built properly, and using alot of MIM stuff.........

Oh Hail Colt and JMB!


Old Fuff, now I know why you drool so much over real steel.............

 

[1911Tuner]

SA Findings

The sear nose was so thin that it was impossible to cut the relief angle, plus it didn't match up into the hammer hooks. QC?

If you mean that the angles didn't "agree"...sounds like either
the sear was short out of spec, or the sear pin hole is out of spec in relation to the hammer pin hole...too much distance between the two. The sear rolls farther toward the hammer and the hooks sit on the back of the
primary angle instead of the whole width. Makes for sort of a"rollout" break. From the sounds of what you saw on the primary, that mighta been it.
___________________________

Ya know, I thought SA's were pretty good guns, now I know why they are going out the door so cheap!

Yep...All of'em...Colt too...are assembled using select fit, drop-in
parts. If one part or group isn't in-spec or doesn't function correctly, another part tried until one is found that does. Then there's the bin that holds the oversized/undersized parts for those times that tolerances
can't be brougght into spec with the standard parts. The quality of the
finished gun depends on the dedication and determination of the assembler to get it right...or whether it's Monday Morning hangover or
Friday Afternoon before vacation starts...which is partly why we see so
many variations between outwardly identical guns. The one that I got was
pretty good. The next one off the line might be a dog. Hey! I've got an
early 80s production Thompson Auto Ordnance that's remarkable, believe
that or not.

The disconnector in the magwell issue...Are ya sure it's the disconnect itself and not a spec/tolerance issue at the back of the frame? The bottom corner protruding through the magwell can let the magazine lift the
disconnect and cause problems...Notably staging the sear for a super-light
let-off on the first round after a hard mag change.

I love Briley disconnects, and don't use anything else. I may be dead wrong...but I THINK that the Ed Brown disconnect is a casting...Somebody
shoot me if I'm wrong.
________________________

Old Fuff, now I know why you drool so much over real steel.

Fuff gets all misty-eyed over real steel...Me? I'll fight to the death over a
real steel thumb safety...

Cheers!

Tuner

 

[Wichaka]

The actual width of the sear nose was thin. If I would have cut a relief angle that would have left a total engagement surface of the sear at about .012-.015 A stock GI sear runs at around .030 nose dimension. A relief cut angle on the sear usually runs at approx. 1/4 - 1/3 of the total sear nose thickness, leaving at least a .020 sear engagement on the hooks. Which if doing the 'Match' type trigger in which the hooks are cut at .020, its a perfect mate.

The hooks on this hammer were at .019, a bit thin for my liking. So I left the relief angle off, and rolled the edge over on the relief side so there was no sharp edge. I'm surprised that SA would cut things so thin. Its going to be an off duty-plain clothes gun, so I told him that as our dept. firearms instructor, I would not allow the carry of that gun unless the hammer & sear were both changed.

I guess I'm going to have to look at every 1911 that comes up for consideration for carry-duty if this is the norm.

As for the diconnect...........hmmmm, haven't thought of the frame spec. While doing hard mag changes yesterday I did notice the trigger let off changing, which..........yes..........I thought of the disconnect contact with the mag. and caught it immediately. I held up the Brown to other dissconnects and there was a slight shape difference, but not enought (I thought) to cause that much of a drag. So will check my frame spec. If its not in spec, I don't see what can done.......ideas?

Yes, the brown is cast.........it was the only one I had..........will be changed out for the Briley soon as I get my next order.

 

[1911Tuner]

Too Thin

Hmmmmmm...Sounds like one of those factory trigger jobs we hear tell of lately...hmmmm. Makes me wonder if some of these guys that bought the
higher-end factory pistols that say: "Mama Mia! Wotta sweeeet trigger!"
will soon be sayin: "What the HELLO made it do THAT???"

Usually takes about 3-5 thousand rounds...

If the frame specs are the problem with the bottom corner of that disconnect, you can probably get out of it by just bringin' the corner down a little more than the stock radius. Might hafta take a little off the area just above it too...All it's gotta do is miss the top round in the magazine.
I saw one stage a trigger so bad, that the break was under a pound. The guy nearly shot his foot on a draw when he touched the trigger a little too early. Close!

Luck!

Tuner

 

[Old Fuff]

>> Fuff gets all misty-eyed over real steel...Me? I'll fight to the death over a
real steel thumb safety... <<

Do I take this to be a hint???? or a threat????

 

[Old Fuff]

>> I guess I'm going to have to look at every 1911 that comes up for consideration for carry-duty if this is the norm. <<

Always a good idea to do with any gun. On one had you have the current lack of quality control and questionable materials in new guns, and the possibility of "regrettable gunsmithing" on used ones. Careful inspection of all guns will help reduce the department's liability while protecting the individual officers.

>> Old Fuff, now I know why you drool so much over real steel. <<

Darn straight!!! On one had I have far greater faith in the material, and on the other the dimensions are more likely to be "in spec."

 

[Wichaka]

Reworked the radius on the disconnect, will order a Briley this week.

So what's the quality of Ed Brown 'Match' stuff. I'm sure a notch or so below the hardcore stuff. I put in an Ed Brown Diconnect & Extractor (all I had at the time), better than what was in there..............

 

[1911Tuner]

Brown Match

Howdy Wichaka,

The "Match" grade extractors seem to be very good, but I've only used one. The first Hardcore that I tried sold me, and from what I've seen ever since, they're right up there with spring steel extractors for function and durability.