Sabots with real black powder

[Cowhide Cliff]

Sorry if this has been addressed but I couldn't find it in a search.

Can I shoot sabots like the TC ones with real black powder or is it going to leave a bunch of melted plastic in my barrel?

 

[ridgerunner1965]

I have been shooting real black with sabots for years in my rem 700ml and my ruger 77/50 inline rifles.

the sabots do not melt at all. in fact when I find them on the ground, they look like you could prob reuse them if needed.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Have shot a few myself, no plastic left in the bore on rifle or shotgun.

 

[Patocazador]

Shoot them the same as you always have. Black powder is the numero uno choice for muzzleloaders even if sabots aren't.

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

I have been shooting real black with sabots for years in my rem 700ml and my ruger 77/50 inline rifles.

the sabots do not melt at all. in fact when I find them on the ground, they look like you could prob reuse them if needed.

Thanks that's good to know, I have a Remington 700ml that Pyrodex pretty much ruined the bolt firing pin in it because I thought I was getting it clean enough. I've used T7 in it since then but never cared for it so seldom shoot the rifle.

I've shot black powder in a shotgun with regular wads and got melted plastic in the barrel so was wondering if I could use real black because I would like to shoot the 700ml more just don't care for the BP substitutes.

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

Have shot a few myself, no plastic left in the bore on rifle or shotgun.

I've gotten plastic in the bore with shotgun and standard WW wads which is why I was asking

 

[Snidely70431]

I do not have a source for real BP, so I do not use it, but I find an over-powder wad punched from a piece of leather keeps any direct fire off the sabot. There is a little scorching on the powder side of the wad but the wads are otherwise undamaged and could be reused.

 

[MEHavey]

Why would BP 'melt/burn' wad/sabot materials any differently than BP substitutes (or a load of BlueDot smokeless in a shotgun shell) ?
For that matter -- we've some BP/patched-ball shooters who actually wash/re-use their cotton patches.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

I have seen all kinds of posts here about melted plastic in shotguns and rifles, and having shot many plastic wads through my double barrel 12 gauge and a 20 gauge trade gun plus a small number through several 50 cal rifles and a Parker double, I have never yet seen any plastic melted in any of my guns. I have carried both the Parker and the black powder double through many quail and dove seasons with no problems at all.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Heat will cause the plastic to melt. At Adventure Camp we had to clean some inlines and sheets of plastic was coming out of the bore.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

I'm beginning to think that this plastic problem may be from competitive shooting where the barrel doesn't get a chance to cool down. I don't shoot competition any more so this has not been an issue. On the other side of the coin my father and brother are both trap shooters and don't have a problem with plastic build up in their guns. So is it different materials in the plastic or lots of shots through a hot barrel that is causing this?

 

[4v50 Gary]

Yeah, but blackpowder isn't exactly rapid fire and yet those inlines at Whittington Center were extremely fouled with plastic.

Shotguns are more rapid fire with sports like Sporting Clays. But the wad is looser fitting than an inline rifle.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

I've only ever used Real Black Powder in all my muzzloaders including inlines with plastic sabots. I've never seen any melted plastic fouling built up.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Sorry if this has been addressed but I couldn't find it in a search.
Can I shoot sabots like the TC ones with real black powder or is it going to leave a bunch of melted plastic in my barrel?

Don't be "sorry", as that's a fair question.

The BP substitutes are not any less "hot" than BP, with Pyrodex still being the top seller (iirc). In fact some of the pellets out there are a combination of black powder and substitute. In fact, Pyrodex is really a form of black powder if you check the MSDS, but with much less sulfur, which makes the BP easier to ignite, and splits up the potassium nitrate with some potassium perchlorate.

So the manufacturers expect a hot temp in their barrels designed for sabots, so whether black powder sabots, OTC sabot that hold round balls or pistol bullets, or plastic skirted bullets, there should be no problem with the plastic.

LD

 

[JeffG]

Great thread! I had the same questions rolling around in my head. I have a patched round ball .50 flintlock, and I'm going to try sabot bullets to increase performance on larger game. Hopefully the twist will stabilize them.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

All you can do is try it, may take some fiddling with the powder charge to get accuracy where you want.

 

[robhof]

Yeah, but blackpowder isn't exactly rapid fire and yet those inlines at Whittington Center were extremely fouled with plastic.

Shotguns are more rapid fire with sports like Sporting Clays. But the wad is looser fitting than an inline rifle.

A rough bore will scrape off the plastic, not actually melt it, I've got a Green Mtn sabot barrel for one of my Hawkins style rifles and it was a bit rough when I got it, lapped it and have never had any plastic residue and very little of any residue after the 2nd patch thanks to a polished bore.

 

[paul harm]

I've had the opposite experience. Running rifle sight in day at the local club many shooters get plastic residue in their barrels when shooting plastic sabots. After a couple of shots without cleaning they couldn't ram a sabot down the barrel. That was with BP or Pyrodex. Shooting a 150 shots a day with BP and plastic wads in the old SxSs and you couldn't see down the barrel. It looked like worms growing in there. You guys without problems - more power to you. Me, NO plastic with BP. BP guns were shot just fine without plastic for a couple of hundred years. Still works for me.

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

Why would BP 'melt/burn' wad/sabot materials any differently than BP substitutes (or a load of BlueDot smokeless in a shotgun shell) ?
For that matter -- we've some BP/patched-ball shooters who actually wash/re-use their cotton patches.

I guess it's the heat because I've seen some nasty stringy melted plastic in a shotgun from using BP under normal smokeless components.

If you've ever shot BP cartridge or cowboy action shooting everyone knows how hot the brass is immediately after shooting. Same with the rifle barrel, MUCH hotter than after shooting a stage using smokeless powder.

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

Don't be "sorry", as that's a fair question.

The BP substitutes are not any less "hot" than BP, with Pyrodex still being the top seller (iirc). In fact some of the pellets out there are a combination of black powder and substitute. In fact, Pyrodex is really a form of black powder if you check the MSDS, but with much less sulfur, which makes the BP easier to ignite, and splits up the potassium nitrate with some potassium perchlorate.

So the manufacturers expect a hot temp in their barrels designed for sabots, so whether black powder sabots, OTC sabot that hold round balls or pistol bullets, or plastic skirted bullets, there should be no problem with the plastic.

LD

Then why do I know guys that can shoot Pyrodex in a shotgun with otherwise smokeless components but if using BP it leaves melted plastic in the barrels? I know what you are saying, the brass and barrels after shooting pyrodex is very hot much like using BP at Cowboy Action matches but I just know what has been reported to me from guys with their shotguns.

I guess I'm just going to have to try it to know for sure.

 

[ridgerunner1965]

just take a few shots over clean ground and inspect the sabots. it seems like mine went about 30 or 40 yrds in front of my shooting bench before falling to earth.

the sabots I used were black and some were the harvestor crush rib sabots, not sure what the other black ones were. they were sized to use a .452 bullet in the 50 cal barrel. there are other out there sized to use a .429 bullet I believe.which if memory serves me is a 44 magnum/special bullet.

the .452 bullets were ones I cast for 45 long colt reloads. lee tumble lube unsized bullets.

my go to load was 90 grn of kik bp.

I do know my barrels were smooth as the bullets and sabots went down very easy and smooth.

I also wiped between shots to simulate a clean barrel as that was what I would be hunting with.

let us know what yu find out after shooting.

 

[rodwha]

I’ve often read that sabots and shot cups will do this. I’ve been curious to try but would lose interest fast if I found plastic shavings or residue.

I’ve wondered about punched cardboard overpowder cards to A) keep the fire off of them, and B) push any residual plastic out fearing a cleaning patch would likely just push it all down the barrel.

I’ve also wondered about patching a bullet. Seems to work well with a ball, and my understanding is it was done with some Pritchett style of bullets.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Then why do I know guys that can shoot Pyrodex in a shotgun with otherwise smokeless components but if using BP it leaves melted plastic in the barrels? I know what you are saying, the brass and barrels after shooting pyrodex is very hot much like using BP at Cowboy Action matches but I just know what has been reported to me from guys with their shotguns.

I guess I'm just going to have to try it to know for sure.

I have experienced this myself with AA brand wads. Not the same plastic by any means as far as I know in the sabots, and not all plastics are the same . Sabot plastic is much harder than that of shotshell wads. Plus the wad makers are expecting use with smokeless powder while the ML sabot makers are not.

IF one is worried, the answer is simple. Try several solvents known to mess with plastic on some of the sabot plastic. Try brake cleaner, acetone, etc. When you find one that will work to soften and/or dissolve the plastic, you're fine if you get plastic residue. I had to clean my Cowboy shotgun with Hoppe's #9 [retro], which had the original benzene put back in by a retired chemist that I knew. When shotshells with plastic wads first appeared, there were melting problems but one swipe in each barrel with a mop of original Hoppe's #9, and clean as a whistle..., too bad benzene causes cancer. , which is why Hoppe's had to be reformulated. You could try benzene, but you need to do this away from a dwelling and properly dispose of the cleaning rags when done.

LD

 

[Bfh_auto]

I use 110 gr of fffg or t7 and a 300 gr cast bullet. They are tight going in with no plastic left behind.
I think loose sabots or a rough bore would be a more likely culprit than the powder.