safe load for Uberti 1873 45 colt/ leading?

G

goh412

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Mar 19, 2023
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Looking to create a bit heavier load for my Uberti 1873 in 45 colt. I have 200 grain lead bullets (15-16 BHN, polymer coated) with Titegroup powder. Have already created and safely shot 6.6 grain loads and was looking to increase to 7.1 grains which is just below the mid level recommended on the Hodgdon reloading site. From same site max recommended charge is 7.7 grains yielding a velocity of 1050 ft/sec and pressure of 12,700. How safe will 7.1 grains be in my 1873 toggle action with a 20" barrel? Hodgdon data is using a 7.25" barrel.
Should I be using a slower burning powder? Could only get my hands on Titegroup and WIN244 recently.
Am I likely to have a leading problem with these loads?
Thank you for your input!
Gerry
 
You need to read in the owner's manual to find what kind of pressures your rifle is designed to take. Barrel length has no bearing on pressure.

Your rifle's longer barrel would benefit from a slower powder, and you can get more velocity at lower pressures as well. TiteGroup is OK for .45 Colt pistol loads... I've loaded them meself... but I do not use TiteGroup for my .45 Colt carbine loads. TiteGroup, and for that matter, W244, are pretty fast powders, and as you ramp up the charge, the pressure ramps up almost exponentially. Hodgdon data lists a LRNFP (lead round nose flat point) bullet, which is a very generic bullet description.

Leading can have different causes. First and foremost is bullet size vs your barrel. Beyond that, velocity, lube, bullet design, powder choice can all contribute (or not...) to leading.
 
This is where the borderline rifle/pistol powders like Alliant 2400, Accurate 5744, and IMR 4227 tend to shine. Slow for pistol but fast for rifle, perfect for “magnums” in handguns, .410 shotshell, .22 Hornets and pistol-caliber carbines.

Your Uberti is probably European proofed for standard load revolver pressure - 15.9kpsi as measured using CIP methods, which is 14kpsi SAAMI methods.

Keep in mind, the .45Colt wasn’t used in rifles until Winchester included it in the ‘94 lineup around 1985. That bit of “ancient history” is only trivial if you put aside the fact that the 1894 action is considerably stronger than the 1873 and all of the “Cowboy” loads are for modern arms post-85. Stick to the 14kpsi-rated loads using slower powder and see how the accuracy is with the bullet you have.
That’s my 2 cents anyway.
 
goh412 said:
Looking to create a bit heavier load for my Uberti 1873 in 45 colt. I have 200 grain lead bullets (15-16 BHN, polymer coated) with Titegroup powder. Have already created and safely shot 6.6 grain loads and was looking to increase to 7.1 grains which is just below the mid level recommended on the Hodgdon reloading site. From same site max recommended charge is 7.7 grains yielding a velocity of 1050 ft/sec and pressure of 12,700. How safe will 7.1 grains be in my 1873 toggle action with a 20" barrel? Hodgdon data is using a 7.25" barrel.
Should I be using a slower burning powder? Could only get my hands on Titegroup and WIN244 recently.
Am I likely to have a leading problem with these loads?
Thank you for your input!
Gerry
Click to expand...

Assuming you're talking PSI, pressures of 12,700 would call for a BHN of around 10 (according to the Missouri Bullet Company). Harder does not equal low leading. Would recommend looking at their Cowboy bullets with a BHN of 12, you can order them coated as well.

Titegroup is more tolerant of case position, a good feature for light loads. For heavier loads in a longer barrel, I would be using a slower powder. But then my load development was for a Ruger revolver and it has a pretty reasonable margin when looking at pressures. Know your gun...

Also, in my experience, Titegroup in heavy loads burns very hot. Can shoot all day with 231 and 2400 without the gun getting hot, but Titegroup? Nope... that heats right up quick.
 
goh412 said:
Looking to create a bit heavier load for my Uberti 1873 in 45 colt. I have 200 grain lead bullets (15-16 BHN, polymer coated)
Click to expand...
I had to go check some manuals to verify my suspicions. I think the OP is using a bullet meant for the .45acp. It’s too light for higher velocities in a carbine and lacks the bearing surface to stabilize at the higher velocities of a slower powder in a 20” barrel.
Forget the higher range powders for anything lighter than a 250gr bullet and stick to Unique or faster powders.
 
GeoDudeFlorida said:
I had to go check some manuals to verify my suspicions. I think the OP is using a bullet meant for the .45acp. It’s too light for higher velocities in a carbine and lacks the bearing surface to stabilize at the higher velocities of a slower powder in a 20” barrel.
Forget the higher range powders for anything lighter than a 250gr bullet and stick to Unique or faster powders.
Click to expand...

I actually wondered about the OP's bullet as well... that's why I mentioned that bit about Hodgdon's data. A '200grn cast bullet' could mean any number of significantly different bullets, only made worse by using something like TiteGroup. I ran the numbers through QuickLoad, but pulled up short of recommending he stay below 7grn TiteGroup... because I don't really know what bullet he's using.
 
Charlie98 said:
I actually wondered about the OP's bullet as well... that's why I mentioned that bit about Hodgdon's data. A '200grn cast bullet' could mean any number of significantly different bullets, only made worse by using something like TiteGroup. I ran the numbers through QuickLoad, but pulled up short of recommending he stay below 7grn TiteGroup... because I don't really know what bullet he's using.
Click to expand...
Yes and we are not likely to find out anytime soon. This OP has a habit of dropping borderline questions with almost no information then disappearing. It’s not malicious or deliberate but it is annoying.
Anyway, maybe if you find out what the actual profile and diameter are you can tell him how to get a heavy weight load from a bantam weight bullet.
 
GeoDudeFlorida said:
Yes and we are not likely to find out anytime soon. This OP has a habit of dropping borderline questions with almost no information then disappearing. It’s not malicious or deliberate but it is annoying.
Anyway, maybe if you find out what the actual profile and diameter are you can tell him how to get a heavy weight load from a bantam weight bullet.
Click to expand...
I appreciate any help you've given but not really sure where this comment came from
 
Appreciate all the feedback, I have been using the T&B 45 Colt LRNFP 200 grain, see below. LGS just got in HS-6. Will check Hodgdon site for a load with a heavier bullet and work up slowly.
1698963931261.png
 
Last edited:
45 colt, R92 , autocomp and Lee tumble lube 240 truncated cone, 20-1 ,1200 fps, zero leading. Never clean the barrel. Just light gray inside. 10 days till deer season and the camaras are hopping
 
First and foremost, slug the barrels of both revolver & rifle so you know what diameter bullet to use. MBC has options to choose from. I personally would go with a 250 gr RNFP coated bullet with a hardness of 12. If you want to use a powder for both revolver & rifle, use something like Red Dot or Unique. Both of these have worked good for me.
The 1873 toggle link action will only take so much abuse from high pressure loads. It's not worth going that route for the long run.
Get the latest Lyman's Cast Bullet manual. It has some good loading info for both 1873 revolver & rifle loads.
 
goh412 said:
Appreciate all the feedback, I have been using the T&B 45 Colt LRNFP 200 grain, see below. LGS just got in HS-6. Will check Hodgdon site for a load with a heavier bullet and work up slowly.
Click to expand...

That looks very much like the Lee 452-200RF, let's see what we have...

It's interesting, I originally had the Lee 200grn SWC selected, as soon as I switched to the RF bullet, pressures dropped markedly, so I'll say that your 7.1grn TiteGroup load should be fine, sticking to the published COL. At a higher velocity, your barrel will tell you in pretty short order if it likes that bullet/velocity combo.

Hodgdon data doesn't include HS6 with the cast bullet... very likely because of the potential velocities. Your stated that your bullets are poly coated, so that will help. Comparing Hodgdon's 200grn XTP data with the QuickLoad model, I would start with the starting HS-6 XTP charge of 11.7grn, that would very likely work pretty well... or it will show you need a heavier bullet for higher velocity. There should be other data to crossreference the 200grn cast bullet with HS-6, but I'm not at the bench at the moment.

Were I you, I would likely try the 7.1grn TiteGroup load... because you have that on hand... and see how it does. I'd be curious to see what kind of accuracy you would get out of that combo in the rifle barrel.
 
According to Brian Pearace, the Uberti `73's are good to 21,000psi. Not sure I would push it but I get over 1400fps out of 180's in the .38-40 with stellar accuracy.

Titegroup is not the powder to do it with though. You need something slower like 2400. I would 'consider' Dave Scovill's 2400 load that I've shot in Colt SAA's. Probably get 1300fps out of a rifle.

I can tell you my new 92 does not like 200's at all.
 
CraigC said:
Titegroup is not the powder to do it with though.
Click to expand...
I think the OP will be OK with the 200's and TiteGroup... accuracy would be the decider on that one. I would NOT use TiteGroup with anything heavier in something like the 1873.

CraigC said:
I can tell you my new 92 does not like 200's at all.
Click to expand...

I am kind of curious what kind of accuracy he's going to get, either with TiteGroup, or HS-6, et al. I've used TiteGroup in my H&R Classic Hunter... but with 255's, and only because I had them leftover from my Vaquero after I sold it. It's Unique or IMR4227 going forward...
 
goh412 said:
Appreciate all the feedback, I have been using the T&B 45 Colt LRNFP 200 grain, see below. LGS just got in HS-6. Will check Hodgdon site for a load with a heavier bullet and work up slowly.
View attachment 1178215
Click to expand...
thumbnail.jpg
I use those same bullets from T & B in my Henry rifle; .45 Colt using either Universal or Unique powder. They work fine. Target was at 80 yards.

Hmm, not sure why pic is so large.:thumbdown:
 
Charlie98 said:
I think the OP will be OK with the 200's and TiteGroup... accuracy would be the decider on that one. I would NOT use TiteGroup with anything heavier in something like the 1873.
Click to expand...
Not if he's going to push past 14,000psi. The cartridge is going to be more efficient with heavier bullets.

Reloading Data .45 Colt (+P 23,000 psi) (Pet Loads / Handloader issue #337) Metallic

.45 Colt (+P 23,000 psi) (Pet Loads / Handloader issue #337) reloading data with 238 loads. Using bullets from Rim Rock SWC-HP w/gc, Barnes XPB Pistol, Speer Gold Dot HP, Sierra JHC, Cutting Edge Raptor HP , Hornady XTP-HP, Speer Deep Curl HP (GDHP), Lyman 452664 RNFP , Montana Bullet Works...
loaddata.com
 
CraigC said:
Not if he's going to push past 14,000psi. The cartridge is going to be more efficient with heavier bullets.
Click to expand...

I would agree... but the OP has what he has, and he was asking. FWIW, his proposed 7.1grn TiteGroup load is not even 13K, based on Hodgdon's data run up against QL (CUP vs PSI, respectively.) I would not go past that, for certain, for the sake of safety. What you and I think would work better... that is, slower powder with a heavier bullet... would require the OP to abandon what he has and go shopping.
 
Charlie98 said:
I would agree... but the OP has what he has, and he was asking. FWIW, his proposed 7.1grn TiteGroup load is not even 13K, based on Hodgdon's data run up against QL (CUP vs PSI, respectively.) I would not go past that, for certain, for the sake of safety. What you and I think would work better... that is, slower powder with a heavier bullet... would require the OP to abandon what he has and go shopping.
Click to expand...
He also asked "Should I be using a slower burning powder?", in which case, the answer 'may' be "yes". In that context, the point remains. "IF" the goal is heavier than standard loads, Titegroup is not the powder. :scrutiny:
 
dh1633pm said:
200 grain for lever guns in 45 Colt never did well in any of mine. Switched to 255’s and things were better. I load specifically for the 1873 using a light load of No 5. I mark the primer end black with a sharpie So I don’t mix things up.
Click to expand...
Thanks, I like the sharpie trick!
 
Show Me said:
45 colt, R92 , autocomp and Lee tumble lube 240 truncated cone, 20-1 ,1200 fps, zero leading. Never clean the barrel. Just light gray inside. 10 days till deer season and the camaras are hopping
Click to expand...
I have 2 other 45s, a Henry BB Steel and the Rossi R92, both with 16" barrels. Both are fun to shoot.
Have never tried the truncated cone bullets. I may give them a go.
Thank you
 
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