Safe way to draw a 1911 in condition 1

[someguy2800]

I don't understand why you would want to compromise your grip on the gun and take the time to reach your thumb around the back of the gun. Its just not putting the odds in your favor. I'm not left handed but I just went and got my 1911 and practiced moving my right thumb around as if I was swiping off the safety on the right. Its just not ideal and not something I want to try to do as I'm trying to hold off someone at arms length trying to kill me.

Also just be aware if your instructor does not think what your doing is safe he may just tell you to go home which would really be a shame over a $40 part.

 

[rpenmanparker]

I don't understand why you would want to compromise your grip on the gun and take the time to reach your thumb around the back of the gun. Its just not putting the odds in your favor. I'm not left handed but I just went and got my 1911 and practiced moving my right thumb around as if I was swiping off the safety on the right. Its just not ideal and not something I want to try to do as I'm trying to hold off someone at arms length trying to kill me.

Also just be aware if your instructor does not think what your doing is safe he may just tell you to go home which would really be a shame over a $40 part.

I find no such issue. I don't find the grip compromised. It doesn't take any time, because it occurs while the gun is coming up to full height. I don't know what ideal means exactly, but I'm now confident I can manage my gun with the left side safety as efficiently and safely as a lefty as you can yours as a righty. In the case of disapproval by the instructor, that would not be a problem. I would just rent an appropriate rig from the school. Many of the students don't bring their own guns anyway.

As for it just being a $40 part, that isn't quite right either. I find the parts range from $55-about $200. And that doesn't count labor. I would not be installing it myself. It seems to be quite an exacting process with a lot of filing and fitting. That guy isn't me. I'm figuring a total of $150 minimum.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

Just so I know, is that based on personal experience or just supposition.

Both? Either?

Is the thread a waste of time if a leftie can inform others that the right side safety need not be a problem? That with a little practice it can be operated with the left hand very effectively? What so terrible about that?

Can we agree that it takes extra time for you to get your thumb to the correct side of the gun?

Can you fire the gun with your thumb on the wrong side?

What kind of draw speeds are you looking at? (how long from *Beep* to draw and fire?)

There is also the risk of dropping the darn thing under stress. Without the gift of the opposable thumb doing its job, you are relying on friction between palm and fingers alone.

I was always taught (and teach) to have a shooting grip on the gun before it leaves the holster. Having the thumb on the wrong side of the gun would not be a shooting grip.
I am not sure how I would handle something like this at one of my classes (haven't run across this yet). We work on proper draw technique quite a bit and your setup does not allow you to perform a proper draw from the holster.



I am very curious on Front Sight's take on this.

Good luck.

 

[Fiv3r]

If you like the 1911 but don't want to modify your gun for $140, maybe an ambi 1911 would do for the class?

You can get a decent RIA for around $300 with an ambi. Now I know that is more than modifying your gun, but I have always been able to talk myself into a good cost effective new gun easier than paying to modify the parts. Then youd have one for class, one left unmodified, and could see for yourself how much better/worse/same your shooting behaves.

As a general leftie, I prefer not to carry a 1911. I don't like large ambi safeties as I have had them get bumped off too many times. I love the 1911, but not for left hand carry.

 

[rpenmanparker]

Both? Either?


Can we agree that it takes extra time for you to get your thumb to the correct side of the gun?

Can you fire the gun with your thumb on the wrong side?

What kind of draw speeds are you looking at? (how long from *Beep* to draw and fire?)

There is also the risk of dropping the darn thing under stress. Without the gift of the opposable thumb doing its job, you are relying on friction between palm and fingers alone.

I was always taught (and teach) to have a shooting grip on the gun before it leaves the holster. Having the thumb on the wrong side of the gun would not be a shooting grip.
I am not sure how I would handle something like this at one of my classes (haven't run across this yet). We work on proper draw technique quite a bit and your setup does not allow you to perform a proper draw from the holster.



I am very curious on Front Sight's take on this.

Good luck.

Yes, it takes longer to cross the thumb over to release the safety. But it is free time. The safety release is not the rate determining step in getting the pistol ready to shoot. It doesn't slow the process down because there it takes longer to raise the pistol to shooting position. So there is some spare time there that can be used to cross the thumb over and back without affecting the total time to sight on target.

Maybe could fire the gun with the thumb crossed over but I wouldn't do it. And why would I have to? As I said above, I have the thumb back in correct position before the gun is in position to fire.

I have no idea about the draw speed. That is what I will find out at Front Sight.

I know I can't convince you guys the gun is secure while the thumb flipping is going on. All I can do is tell you that is my belief. I am not going to drop it.

The thumb is not on the wrong side when the gun leaves the holster. It moves over to the opposite side during the rise.

As far as handling this with one of your students I would suggest you consider it on a case-specific basis. If the student is managing the process well, then what's the problem? If they are struggling, well then they need a solution like the ambi safety. But I dispute the statement that this does not allow a proper draw. The thumb movement and safety manipulation do not have to occur until well after the gun clears the holster.

And let's face it, I am not the first person to face this issue. Over the more than 100 years the gun has been in use, many leftys must have developed sound draw technique with the standard safety 1911s. At least I would think so.

Thanks for your input.

 

[rpenmanparker]

If you like the 1911 but don't want to modify your gun for $140, maybe an ambi 1911 would do for the class?

You can get a decent RIA for around $300 with an ambi. Now I know that is more than modifying your gun, but I have always been able to talk myself into a good cost effective new gun easier than paying to modify the parts. Then youd have one for class, one left unmodified, and could see for yourself how much better/worse/same your shooting behaves.

As a general leftie, I prefer not to carry a 1911. I don't like large ambi safeties as I have had them get bumped off too many times. I love the 1911, but not for left hand carry.

Thanks. That is an interesting idea. At least it will give me something else to work on. This class keeps getting costlier and costlier.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

I will try to my best here.

Yes, it takes longer to cross the thumb over to release the safety. But it is free time.

No such thing as "free time" when you are deploying a gun for defense.

The safety release is not the rate determining step in getting the pistol ready to shoot. It doesn't slow the process down because there it takes longer to raise the pistol to shooting position. So there is some spare time there that can be used to cross the thumb over and back without affecting the total time to sight on target.

Are familiar with "shooting from retention"?

This is the idea that you pull the gun from the holster, and because your opponent is already on top of you, you start shooting with one hand with the pistol close to you body.
There is not extension or sight picture. You are putting rounds on target as fast as you possibly can while making space, deflecting attacks, etc.
There are some good videos on it.
ETA: found one after quick search. Start at 3:40

ETA2: a better one probably:

Maybe could fire the gun with the thumb crossed over but I wouldn't do it. And why would I have to? As I said above, I have the thumb back in correct position before the gun is in position to fire.

Because when the chips are down we don't get to pick how it plays out.
Everybody's plan is perfect, until it meets the opposition. Then all bets are off.

The bad guys don't play by our pre-planned choreography.

I know I can't convince you guys the gun is secure while the thumb flipping is going on. All I can do is tell you that is my belief. I am not going to drop it.

K, but you have lots of people with really good research and experience here trying to explain.

The thumb is not on the wrong side when the gun leaves the holster. It moves over to the opposite side during the rise.

If I am hearing you correct, you are disengaging the safety before it leaves the holster, right?
I am no tactical operator but that sounds like you are disengaging the safety too soon, to me.

As far as handling this with one of your students I would suggest you consider it on a case-specific basis. If the student is managing the process well, then what's the problem?

Safety, mostly.
If they are taking the gun off safe before the muzzle is down range, that represents a valid safety concern.

I have seen people rope steers and dally with their thumbs down. Lots of thumb-less cowboys would tell you that's not a good idea.

And let's face it, I am not the first person to face this issue. Over the more than 100 years the gun has been in use, many leftys must have developed sound draw technique with the standard safety 1911s. At least I would think so.

While you are correct, that doesn't make it any better.
The Navy still trains ALL recruits with right handed holsters. Doesn't make it a good idea but they figure it out. Obviously they would be better served with left handed equipment.
Before ambi safeties, I would bet that the 1911 was not a preferred side arm of lefties.

Thanks for your input.

For what it's worth, you are welcome.

THR is hands down the best firearms knowledge website in existence and the folks here genuinely want to help and many of them really know their stuff.

Good luck out there.

 

[rpenmanparker]

I will try to my best here.

No such thing as "free time" when you are deploying a gun for defense.


Are familiar with "shooting from retention"?

This is the idea that you pull the gun from the holster, and because your opponent is already on top of you, you start shooting with one hand with the pistol close to you body.
There is not extension or sight picture. You are putting rounds on target as fast as you possibly can while making space, deflecting attacks, etc.
There are some good videos on it.


Because when the chips are down we don't get to pick how it plays out.
Everybody's plan is perfect, until it meets the opposition. Then all bets are off.

The bad guys don't play by our pre-planned choreography.


K, but you have lots of people with really good research and experience here trying to explain.


If I am hearing you correct, you are disengaging the safety before it leaves the holster, right?
I am no tactical operator but that sounds like you are disengaging the safety too soon, to me.


Safety, mostly.
If they are taking the gun off safe before the muzzle is down range, that represents a valid safety concern.

I have seen people rope steers and dally with their thumbs down. Lots of thumb-less cowboys would tell you that's not a good idea.


While you are correct, that doesn't make it any better.
The Navy still trains ALL recruits with right handed holsters. Doesn't make it a good idea but they figure it out. Obviously they would be better served with left handed equipment.
Before ambi safeties, I would bet that the 1911 was not a preferred side arm of lefties.



For what it's worth, you are welcome.

THR is hands down the best firearms knowledge website in existence and the folks here genuinely want to help and many of them really know their stuff.

Good luck out there.

Just to correct any misconception: no the safety does not come off before the gun is pointing downrange. I was doing that previously, but not since talking to you guys. The safety comes off on the rise and is complete before the gun is ready to sight on target.

 

[stchman]

Are there any DAO pistols with a "Glock style trigger"?

Many consider Glocks to have DAO triggers. The striker is not pre-tensioned and gives a long trigger pull.

 

[JTQ]

Many consider Glocks to have DAO triggers. The striker is not pre-tensioned and gives a long trigger pull.

Ernest Langdon, skip to the 2:10 mark through the 2:30 mark.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Think about it like this -- there is really no difference in a right handed grip and a left handed grip, except which finger goes on the trigger. Adopt a thumb-over-thumb grip with the thumbs on the safety lever. Then as the decision to shoot is made, the trigger finger goes into the trigger guard and the thumbs wipe off the safety.

 

[rpenmanparker]

Ernest Langdon, skip to the 2:10 mark through the 2:30 mark.

Huh? What does this have to do with the thread?

 

[rpenmanparker]

Think about it like this -- there is really no difference in a right handed grip and a left handed grip, except which finger goes on the trigger. Adopt a thumb-over-thumb grip with the thumbs on the safety lever. Then as the decision to shoot is made, the trigger finger goes into the trigger guard and the thumbs wipe off the safety.

Huh? The thumbs are on the wrong side of the gun if you are left-handed.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

Huh? The thumbs are on the wrong side of the gun if you are left-handed.

Pretty sure he is making the case for ambi safety.

 

[rpenmanparker]

Let’s broaden the thread to talk about other possibilities. Glocks don’t have external safeties, So on one hand they are easier to draw to a shooting ready condition. No safety release required. On the other hand you could question their safety during the draw.

Many (most?) other striker-fired guns do have the external safety. My other two 9mm are a Ruger SR9 and a Ruger LC9s, both of which have external safeties. The LC9s has only the left side safety lever, and I am pretty sure, cannot be converted to ambi. The safety is much harder for a lefty to release than a left side-only 1911 safety. The SR9 is ambi, but the levers are so small and stiff to move that even with the ambi function, I can’t release it nearly as easily as the off side 1911 safety.

In this thread 1911s have been criticized for CCW, but to me they are easier to get into shooting position and condition than other candidates for both lefties and righties, Glock excepted. Of course, an ambi 1911 could be even better. We have already been talking about that.

Another thought: if you carried a non-Glock striker-fired pistol for SD, would you have a round chambered with the safety off making it equivalent to the Glock? Or would you leave the safety on since it was provided for that purpose?

 

[Varminterror]

In one of my defensive or dynamic pistol classes, I would happily knock your pistol out of your hand as you brought it out of the holster with the firing hand thumb on the wrong side. Been doing that demonstration with students for over a decade.

You don’t feel as if your grip is compromised and you don’t perceive the loss in time because you’re not stressing the system. In reality, you are failing to sufficiently control your firearm, in a circumstance where the consequence of failure is the loss of your life.

Keep doing it the wrong way if you insist, but you will never be as fast or stable as a proper draw stroke by performing what you have described.

Lead a horse to water...

 

[Varminterror]

Your LC9s is 100% safe to be carried with the safety disengaged. It’s redundant. Problem solved.

 

[9mmepiphany]

If you're going to "broaden the thread", I'd prefer that you start a new thread