Safety Warning!

[Tony_the_tiger]

Oh man... close one. Glad you're ok.

 

[Derry 1946]

new to 1911: question

OK, I have read all these posts. I have been a revolver guy, and just bought my first 1911. (Only holster I have for it so far is an M3.) Would this AD (or whatever you want to call it) have happened if no round had been chambered? In other words, mag has rounds, but slide has not been racked, no round in chamber, hammer down, thumb safety on. In this condition, you can holster the weapon in such as way as to discharge untintentionally?

Thanks for all the info to date. OP, glad you are OK, and thanks for posting this useful warning.

Regards,
Derry

 

[bigfatdave]

Derry, the carry condition debate is endless, and if you want to have a handsgun instead of a handgun, then carry empty chamber all you like. If you're talking about a range toy, then it really doesn't matter.
And I'll point out that on a properly-functioning 1911-pattern gun the safety lever cannot be placed in the "more safe" position while the hammer is down/forward ... it simply doesn't work that way.
And if the "M3" is a military-style flapped shoulder holster, get a holster with retention and some ability to keep the safety lever from being bumped to the "less safe" position ... those things are scabbards more than holsters, they don't retain the gun and they don't protect the controls in a positive way. In a loose scabbard-type holster empty-chamber carry might be a good idea, even.

The hammer is locked to the sear by the thumb safety, the trigger is blocked by the grip safety, the trigger is protected by a proper holster, and the various safety devices are not ignored or defeated ... Condition 1 carry (round in chamber, manual safety engaged) is perfectly safe until you start waving the gun around in a forest of leather flaps with one on the trigger, one on the safety lever and your hand on the grip safety.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=614182&highlight=condition+1
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=594906&highlight=condition+1
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=599143&highlight=condition+1
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=578300&highlight=condition+1

The OP did not have a 1911 problem, he had a negligent discharge caused by a holstering technique that would have set off most guns, possibly even including a DA revolver.

 

[Dr_B]

a holstering technique that would have set off most guns, possibly even including a DA revolver

So true. You don't want anything floppy or otherwise getting into the trigger guard. I carry a 1911 and I'm glad this guy posted his story. A story like this is good for keeping things sober. A healthy fear of the weapon helps keep one from becoming complacent.

 

[RON in PA]

Maybe there was a reason the US Army mode of carry was condition 3.

 

[bigfatdave]

Maybe there was a reason the US Army mode of carry was condition 3.

sure, and keeping a snap-cap as your top round would be even safer, because you'd have to rack the slide TWICE while keeping someone from stabbing you.

Maybe the Army mandated C3 because the handgun wasn't the primary weapon and they didn't want to waste a bunch of time and money getting everyone a custom holster and teaching them how to use it. We have the luxury of choosing our own weaponry, and the responsibility to be extremely proficient with our chosen weapons.

 

[1911Tuner]

I disagree with "gun not safe."

As is your right.

The gun isn't "safe." No loaded gun can ever be completely "safe." Even Jeff Cooper alluded to that. If it were...it would be of little use. Safety is squarely on our shoulders.
We often learn that hard lesson when we get careless.

The US Military mandated Condition 3 carry for all infantry smallarms unless it looked like things were about to go sideways. (Line of departure, ladies. Lock and load.) Why? Because the Law of Averages says that sooner or later...somebody will get careless.

 

[jerkface11]

may anger the glock guys but a glock would have give ya one chance before attempting to blow ya a new poop hole.

LOL so the 1911 went off LESS than a Glock would have?

 

[chhodge69]

Do it wrong, as the OP did, and ANY flavor gun will fire.

 

[RAINS]

You know most of the time when I hear about accidental discharges it mostly seems to be Glock or 1911 related. In reality both are not as safe as a lot of other designs. Still they can be carried without issue. Glad you are ok. At least you were safe and did not have the mussel pointed right at your body. Thanks for posting too. We should all take a few moments to think about our carry setups.

 

[bigfatdave]

You know most of the time when I hear about accidental discharges it mostly seems to be Glock or 1911 related. In reality both are not as safe as a lot of other designs.

hint - it is because they're two of the most common guns in the world!

 

[1911Tuner]

Most ND/AD events with Glocks are noted during reholstering the piece...or some variant of same....and somebody either forgot to get their trigger finger out of the trigger guard or an article of loose clothing caught the trigger on the way in. 2nd in line is during field-stripping..due to the requirement to pull the trigger before it can be disassembled when somebody forgets to clear the chamber before pulling the trigger.

It all comes back to carelessness and/or haste on the part of the user. Safety is our responsibility. The "safety" on the gun is no more than a backup system when our brains flame out that reduces the chances of a problem...and it's not infallible.

Is gun. Gun not safe. Man is safe...or unsafe...as the case may be.

 

[hso]

I'm relieved that you were lucky enough to escape with only minor injuries.

 

[alongston]

Wow glad you are OK. Thanks for the heads up. I think it's more a note on being careful when handling than a ding against the safety of the weapon in question. Thanks for that.

 

[Derry 1946]

thanks

Thanks, bigfatdave, for taking the time to clarify. Very enlightening. I've got small children, and safety is my top priority.

Derry

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I'm glad nothing happened to you, and I'm certainly not trying to make light of the situation, but did you take any pictures of the shorts you were wearing? I kind of want to see the repercussions of this incident.

 

[JohnKSa]

Most ND/AD events with Glocks are noted during reholstering the piece...or some variant of same....and somebody either forgot to get their trigger finger out of the trigger guard or an article of loose clothing caught the trigger on the way in. 2nd in line is during field-stripping..due to the requirement to pull the trigger before it can be disassembled when somebody forgets to clear the chamber before pulling the trigger.

Based on this poll, ND/ADs happen primarily when people pull the trigger, so your comment about field-stripping being a leading cause of ND/ADs with Glocks could be accurate. However, it's highly unlikely, if we give the poll responses any credence at all, that the number one cause of ND/ADs with any type of firearm is reholstering incidents.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=114287

 

[Bowhunter57]

...did you take any pictures of the shorts you were wearing? I kind of want to see the repercussions of this incident

460Kodiak,
No pics. The shorts were completely destroyed. From just below the holster it looked like someone had pressed a limbsaw against my hip and right cheek of my butt and jerked straight down HARD. My underwear (boxers) were intact, but there were perforations in the material from the barrel ports (5 on each side).

These were cargo shorts and the rip was nearly the length of the leg material. The inside pocket was exposed, ripped open and my billfold exposed. There's a nick in the leather, on the upper right corner of my billfold that is a grim reminder of how close the 230gr. JHP passed by me.

I stood still for a moment, in shock and realized that there might be more damage to myself than I knew. My brother was telling me to get the shorts off so we could assess any physical damage. Dropping my shorts (what was left of them) revealed a line of barrel port burns and a 5" blood red stripe of muzzle blast from the 3" barrel. No bleeding, but some serious burn and concussion bruising.

This was about the time when I became very ill and nearly puked. The reality of what had just happened hit me, I hit a knee and thanked God. I've hunted with handguns for many years, without a single incident. Even so, there's no room for errors, irreguardless of the years of experience.

Again, Thank You, to all that have replied with concern for my well being. It is greatly appreciated.
Bowhunter57

 

[orionengnr]

Would this AD (or whatever you want to call it)

I'd call it an ND, because the firearm performed as it was designed to--the trigger was moved to the rear, the firing pin impacted the primer, and h=the bullet exited the barrel.

When holstering a 1911, it is my technique to keep my right thumb in contact with and pressing upward on the thumb safety.

I'm no Jeff Cooper, but I understand physics and How Stuff Works.

 

[Bowhunter57]

When holstering a 1911, it is my technique to keep my right thumb in contact with and pressing upward on the thumb safety.

orionengnr,
I'd say that would be a first class way to handle holstering any 1911. I never liked the ambi-safety on my SA and had entertained thoughts of replacing it with a single side safety.

I'm not sure why they design the ambi-safety the way they do, but both sides stick out away from the frame/body of the pistol. This "bat-wing" design is just another chance for something to get caught on it and allow it to get switched off. I much prefer the single side safety, as it's right up against the frame/body of the pistol.

I won't say that I'll never own another one, but if I do, it won't be for a CCW.

Bowhunter57

 

[1911Tuner]

However, it's highly unlikely, if we give the poll responses any credence at all, that the number one cause of ND/ADs with any type of firearm is reholstering incidents.

The term "Glock Leg" wasn't coined because people were unintentionally firing the gun during field-stripping, unless they have a really strange technique for that exercise.

It's very common...especially among law enforcement...to report such an occurrence as a malfunction, when it's actually due to having the finger on the trigger as the gun is reholstered...or something else engaged it as it went in. Since pulling the trigger is the way the gun is fired, it has to be one or the other. They either don't want to admit their mistake, or they simply aren't even aware of it. I suspect that it's the latter in most instances.

In 1910, the US Cavalry requested a manual safety on the new pistol in progress so that mounted troopers could safely reholster the piece in order to free up both hands when they found themselves trying to hang onto a frightened horse.

Even in those unenlightened days, the boys on the ordnance board recognized that a man...especially if he's under stress...may forget to take his finger out of the trigger guard before jamming it into its holster. Either Gaston failed to realize this, or he chose to ignore it. Since he borrowed Browning's basic tilt barrel/short recoil/locked breech design, it's hard for me to believe that he didn't at least consider what the manual safety was actually put there for...unless he, like so many other people, assumed that it was for cocked and locked carry. "Cocked and Locked, the way JMB intended!" is a myth.

 

[murf]

bowhunter57,

sure hate to see a 1911 go to "safe prison". maybe you can practice a new draw and holster technique that will ease your mind and keep the grip safety on.

murf

 

[Bowhunter57]

murf,
Thank you for the kind words of instruction, but I have already sold the SA to a friend of mine for $500 and he was happy to get it. I have a M&Pc on order to replace it.

Bowhunter57

 

[JohnKSa]

The term "Glock Leg" wasn't coined because people were unintentionally firing the gun during field-stripping, unless they have a really strange technique for that exercise.

Of course it wasn't. Clearly it refers to reholstering incidents. What I was pointing out was that while reholstering incidents clearly do result in ND/ADs, I haven't seen any statistics (even informal ones) to indicate that reholstering incidents are the leading cause of Glock ND/ADs.

What's more, the poll I linked to indicates that the most common cause of ND/ADs (41%) is pulling the trigger on purpose. It's out in front by a margin of about 25% compared to the next most common cause which was pulling the trigger by mistake.

Which says that it's highly unlikely, if we give the poll responses any credence at all, that the number one cause of ND/ADs with any type of firearm is reholstering incidents. The poll makes it pretty plain that the number one cause of ND/ADs, across the board, and by a wide margin, is intentionally pulling the trigger but expecting the gun not to fire for one reason or another.

 

[Ben86]

That's one of the dangers of using a leather holster. This is one reason I have entirely switched to kydex holsters.