Saiga 12 problems

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kestak

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Greetings,

I tried 3-4 different shells with my new Saiga-12 and I have 2 constanr problems with 2 different magazines. One is 5 rounds, the other one is 10 rounds.

The problem #1, when I manually work the bolt handle, with one magazine the insertion is perfect. With the other one, the mechanism jams the shell between the bolt and the chamber. It is like the shell does not climb the "imaginary" ramp.

The problem #2a is that the shells do not extract, they FTE half caught by the bolt WHEN I AM ON SETTING 1 AND 2.

OR

The problem #2 bis that the shells extracts but the mechanism jams the shell between the bolt and the chamber WHEN I AM ON SETTING 1 AND 2.

I used 2 3/4 shells, birdshots winchester white box, Federal shots and Fiocchi 12HV00BK.

Anyone had that kind of problem or can tell me how to resolve it? I am kind of VERY disappointed that my semi-auto shotgun does not work.

Thank you
 
It sounds like a combination of bad magazines and improper gas settings. I suggest a Gunfixer gas plug for an Saiga 12 owner (4 very different settings), but that may not be all of your problem. Are you using the factory 5 round mag?
 
Ahhh, the joy of the Saiga.

Remember that these are designed to be battle Shotguns. They are designed for SLUGS and BUCKSHOT. They are NOT going to be 100% reliable with low brass birdshot without doing at least SOME modifications.

www.forum.saiga-12.com is a great place to start. Use the search function and you'll find a lot of information on shaping and polishing the bolt, checking the gas ports to make sure they are un-obstructed.

Some folks will tell you that you need to put x hundred high brass rounds through it to "break it in." You can also send the gun to Cadiz Gun Works does the warranty work on these guns. They'll make sure it cycles with Federal Bulk Low brass birdshot. The warranty work is free, so take advantage of it before you convert it to the pistol grip/high cap mag 922(r) compliant version.

Best of luck.
 
It sounds like a combination of bad magazines and improper gas settings. I suggest a Gunfixer gas plug for an Saiga 12 owner (4 very different settings), but that may not be all of your problem.

How so? He says he has used setting two which is wide open. The gunfixer plug is not designed to and by the admission of its maker does not cure under gassed guns. If the shells are not ejecting that sounds under gassed.

They are NOT going to be 100% reliable with low brass birdshot without doing at least SOME modifications.

That is not true. Some may not, but some certainly are reliable without modification. I have owned multiple that have ran fine from the first shot with low brass bird shot.

The first thing I would do is see how many gas ports the gun has and if they seem to be unobstructed.

What mag is causing the problems? The 10 rounder? What type of magazine is it? Pro mag?
 
Girodin- If the shells are not chambering with ease, the angle of feed could be off, caused by an out of spec magazine body or magazine follower. That's what I mean by bad magazines as a possibility. As far as the Gunfixer plug 'not claiming to cure undergassed guns', that's straight wrong. That's exactly the reason I bought the plug, and it's exactly what it did: allowed a higher volume of gas to drive the piston and cycle my gun. MD Arms also claims, and I quote, "When on the low brass setting the MD Arms V-Plug plug better utilizes the gas from the low power ammo, slightly increasing the cycling power of the gun." I didn't say that a plug would cure the problem, but it would certainly help. That's a big point of the aftermarket gas plugs: improve low-brass reliability. The other is to ease up the gas flow on heavy-duty rounds, which should cycle fine anyway.
 
As far as the Gunfixer plug 'not claiming to cure undergassed guns', that's straight wrong. That's exactly the reason I bought the plug, and it's exactly what it did:

No you are wrong, demonstrably wrong.

I see I'll need to dig up the thread over on the Saiga boards where he states it.

Here is Bob Ash from Tromix explaining what would make sense just from looking at the design of the factory gas plug and any replacement. He states

3) No aftermarket gas plug will give you more gas than the factory one.

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=62127&hl=Gunfixr&st=30

Post 46

And gunfixr had this to say about the plug he designed:

Like BobAsh has said, no plug will give the gun more gas than the factory plug. Only so much will come through the ports, and last so long depending on barrel length and where the ports are in relation to the muzzle.
All the various plugs do is close off part of the gas, let it all through, or bleed off some. The shape of the puck end will have some effect on how it flows to the puck, even though it cannot bring more to the puck than the ports will allow through. This channeling can improve function, but only to the limit of the gas amount. If the gun does not have enough gas flow (undegassed), then no plug will make up for that. I said all that years ago, nothing has changed. (emphasis added)

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=62127&hl=Gunfixr&st=60

Post 67

Now we could believe you or we could believe the guy who designed it. I know what MD means when he says "V-Plug plug better utilizes the gas from the low power ammo, slightly increasing the cycling power of the gun." It is not what you have read it to mean. It is not a greater volume of gas as you stated. Re-read that statement and the thread I've linked to and I think you will better understand.

That's a big point of the aftermarket gas plugs: improve low-brass reliability.

That is why lots of people who do not understand the gas system buy them. It however never was the point I'm afraid.

If the shells are not chambering with ease, the angle of feed could be off, caused by an out of spec magazine body or magazine follower. That's what I mean by bad magazines as a possibility.

The fact that the mags are the variable in whether it chambers correctly or not makes me strongly suspect the mag is the issue.
 
My understanding was that the new plug was made to better adjust the handling of the rifle between the full bore 'magnum' rounds and the light target load, making easier to handle those loads that would be under gassed on one, but over gassed on the other.

When I read this, my first though was, either the mag is off (happens) or the bolt extractor might need tuning, as that is what hold the shell on during cycling.
 
I'm on the Saiga 12 forums, and I also own one of these guns. I can help you.

(1) What kind of magazines? The only magazines you should be considering are the originals and Surfire / SGM Tactical magazines. ProMags are trash.

(2) There's 2 upgrades that Saigas NEED out of the box: an upgraded gas piston, and an adjustable gas plug / valve. Otherwise you'll get short stroking on lighter loads. The current best piston is made by GoGun. They offer their pistons in 3 different varieties, depending on the types of loads you'll be shooting. Just buy the one rated for the lightest loads; you can always reduce the gas setting. As for the gas valve, you want the MDArms adjustable gas plug. It's a finger-adjustable plug. Someone also makes an actual valve that's supposed to avoid manual adjustment, but I haven't heard any reports on how well it works.

These upgrades are cheap and easy to install. Literally drop-in replacements for your existing components. I'd recommend shooting some #00 buck through your gun on the lowest gas setting to help break it in. Rio Royal is good, cheap ammo that gets along well with the Saiga 12. Don't get their low-recoil #00, though. Haven't tried it, but just wouldn't trust it.
 
(2) There's 2 upgrades that Saigas NEED out of the box: an upgraded gas piston,

Why a different gas puck? Conventional wisdom on the saiga boards is the only thing they really offer is an extra compliance part (and even that is debatable and far from settled law).

The current best piston is made by GoGun.

The twister puck? How is it the best? It purports to clean the gas block, but I don't even know how many rounds one would need to fire to have carbon build up there be an issue. I've shot hundred and hundreds and hundred before cleaning it out, and it showed no signs of being a problem before I did. Further when its design in essence gives you a larger gas chamber and thus requires more gas to move the puck how could it possibly be something to recommend for a gun that sounds under gassed? Seriously. People have actually reported it inducing FTE problems. For example: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=58778


Otherwise you'll get short stroking on lighter loads.

Again there are plenty of guns that will run out of the box so it is hardly the case that saigas per se need either of them, but more to the point how will either of those help an under gassed gun?


Seriously you might want to hold off on giving advice. What you have suggested is unlikely to help at best and might possibly be counter productive. It also doesn't even address a number things that might be the root of the problem. If the OP had only two gas ports for example he could buy all the magic pucks and valves, polish and tweek and the gun isn't going to run light loads.

Owning the gun is not enough to qualify one to give advice, you actually need to understand how it works as well.
 
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Girodin- Let me try to rectify my reasoning to you. I got a new-in-box Saiga 12. I shot 200 rounds of birdshot through it, on the "low" setting (it had only 2 settings). I had continuous failures to extract. Then- with no other internal modifications- I bought the Gunfixer plug and installed it. WOW! LIKE FLIPPIN' MAGIC...my gun worked fine with the exact same ammo on the low-brass setting of the new plug. I get what your forum reference means, and I know how the gun works, but when you nearly fully open up a valve, using a deep recess to increase flow, the same few little holes WILL experience more pressure and a bit more flow. I am among many who have had this same experience, and greatly improved my Saiga cycling with low-brass. I am not a rich man, but $25 for a highly potential solution (that will serve the owner with high-brass even if it doesn't solve his low-brass woes) seems mighty viable to me. I'm not suggesting that the OP do something asinine and spend hundreds, I'm simply sharing my experience with a product that saved me from a similar situation. Perhaps instead of blasting other people's suggestions, you could offer some more of your own. I am not being rude, but it seems you have a vendetta against commonly-had solutions, although I agree that the twister-puck is unnecessary.
 
I bought the Gunfixer plug and installed it. WOW! LIKE FLIPPIN' MAGIC...my gun worked fine with the exact same ammo on the low-brass setting of the new plug.

Gunfixr or the V plug? They are similar but identical and your story has changed.

I am aware of MD's bases for a claim in efficiency with these plugs and it indicates that the difference is rather slight. He at one point claimed he could prove mathematically that the V plug worked better but when asked to do so went silent.

There was another lengthy thread on the S12 boards about these plugs and their effect on under gassed guns.

It might be that a gun on the very edge could be made to work by this slight increase in efficiency. It would stand to reason the lager chamber caused by the deeper counter bore might have the opposite effect. At any rate any under gassed problem would have to be extremely slight for the plug to remedy it, if it in fact did.

I've seen guns with a bur(s) in the action that didn't run and after being shot a bit and hand/or cycled it gets knocked off cycles fine. Polishing the action (either through use or doing it yourself make the action cycle with notably less force. Some times it is only a matter of putting a rather small number of rounds through it.

I have in the years since the Gunfixr plug came out actually seen very very few people claim it alone made an under gassed gun function.

Perhaps instead of blasting other people's suggestions, you could offer some more of your own.

I did. I suggested he check his ports. That is the most logical first step in trouble shooting consistent FTE problems. If there is a major problem with the ports all the other steps one might take are very unlikely to fix the problem. A 2 port gun for example will very likely never run light loads no matter what else one does. Counting the ports and seeing if they are really open is free.

but $25 for a highly potential solution

It really probably isn't a high potential solution. It is a good product to have though, if for no other reason than one can manually change setting more easily. I think its worth owning.

I am not being rude, but it seems you have a vendetta against commonly-had solutions, although I agree that the twister-puck is unnecessary.

Because I refereed you to the person who designed it saying it wont fix a particular problem I have a vendetta? That is rich.

If it were my gun I would:

1) Check the ports, if there was an issue there I might well get warranty work done (most people don't want to do that work themselves it seems). If there was no problem there I would:

2) work the action and see if there are spots its hanging up. If the gun has a G2 it the hump on the hammer could be an issue. I would likely reshape that hump like the folks selling modified FCG for the S12 do.

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3) I would polish the bolt, bottom of the bolt carrier, the hammer, the rails, and where the carrier rides on the rails. The difference in how the action cycles between all new parts and ones polished mirror smooth is striking if you work one after the other.

If none of this worked I would then either look to tune the extractor or perhaps put a lower powered spring in it.

As to the magazine what I did would probably be based on what type of mag it was and what exactly it looked like was happening.

I'm sorry to have confused the issue with information from the people who designed the products being discussed. I'll leave it to the experts to guide you through this based on their vast experience of owning one gun and misinterpreting advertising material. :rolleyes:

To the OP good luck. You may want to consult the saiga forums.
 
Yeah, you're right, Girodin. No use in me being all butt-hurt about your expertise. I'll just shut my mouth.

OP: Please disregard my advice on this issue. It is totally ignorant of me to offer any insight based on my experience with one sample of a model of firearm. Good luck! Saiga 12's are a lot of fun when you finally tweak them to work 100%.
 
Looks like we're almost, nearly, on the edge of getting hot under the collar with each other.

The OP should have enough info to do a little investigating and maybe a little tinkering to see if he can diagnose the problem, or get someone else to.

If those options don't provide relief, the OP can start a new thread documenting the observations he's made and the steps he's taken.

If he wants to continue here, he can send me a PM and maybe we'll reopen this. But for now, let's quit arguing.
 
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