Saiga .308 vs AR10

[noob_shooter]

You guys think it would be a wise idea to trade/sell my 22" saiga 308 non-converted for an Armalite AR10 and pay the difference?

Pros? cons?
AR10 maybe more accurate but less reliable than saiga 308.. major trade off.. does it jam as bad as AR15's?


Never fired an AR10 before in my life, but they look pretty cool. No, i dont want an AR15. I want the AR10 because it shoots 308 win

or wait.. would an PTR and FAL better than the AR10?

 

[Kind of Blued]

AR-10s are reeeeally expensive lately. I'd probably wait a while, and buy one later for the same price you would now including the Saiga trade.

 

[Davionmaximus]

I have the DPMS 10. Accurate and reliable. I think the whole 'reliablilty' thing is a myth...I have never had an ounce of trouble with any AR, but that is probably because I CLEAN MY GUNS...

 

[4Freedom]

I have an AR10 and just got my newly converted Saiga 308 today. I really like the Saiga 308 because its a different beast and has the AK reliability. Not as prone to jamming, picky with ammo, require fervent cleaning. etc.. That being said, I am sure most AR10s can shoot tighter groups at farther distances than Saiga 308. Of course that is if both guns are being shot with a person who can shoot each gun equally. Well, I am not experienced with either gun, but I wanted one commie gun in my collection, so I choose a converted Saiga 308.

think the whole 'reliablilty' thing is a myth...I have never had an ounce of trouble with any AR, but that is probably because I CLEAN MY GUNS

Maybe a myth? But try being out in the jungle in combat for 4 months without any cleaning tools and see which one will perform better by the end of that time period.

 

[W L Johnson]

AR10 maybe more accurate but less reliable than saiga 308.. major trade off.. does it jam as bad as AR15's?

Funny thing, my saiga 7.62x39 has jammed more times than all 7 of my ARs combined, which is two times now (the saiga). And that includes 2 Armalite AR-10s. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.

 

[jpcolt76]

Go ar10!

I had 2 Saiga 308's and got bored with them after awhile. Never found a scope mount that I liked for them either. I have an AR10 and it is an awesome beast to scope and shoot. There is a world of difference between the feeling you get holding them. I have seen Saigas here for $750.00! They are not worth that but that place has $1400 Bushy A2 rifles too! GO AR if you want a great scoped semi 308.

 

[W L Johnson]

I have seen Saigas here for $750.00!

Been seeing them around the Louisville area for about $500.

Paid $1050 for my Armalite 20" AR-10 new with scope mount about 13 months ago, saw the same model without mount go for $2800 on gunbroker about a month ago.

 

[quatin]

Maybe a myth? But try being out in the jungle in combat for 4 months without any cleaning tools and see which one will perform better by the end of that time period.

Man, I don't know what you guys do when you go to the range, but for daily range trips I doubt you would see any difference.

It depends on what you want to do. I bought a 16'' saiga 308 to have a hard hitting carbine. If I really wanted to reach out at 500-600 yards with a 20''+ barrel I would have gone with an AR-10. A FAL, although a nice rifle will not have the accuracy reputation of an AR-10 either.

 

[Lazuris]

not a big fan of the AR-10 "armalite" as they use only their own mags. You can't use the DPMS mags which are way cheaper.

 

[WardenWolf]

The Saiga makes a better survival rifle, as it will keep working longer under adverse conditions. However, in terms of accuracy and short-term reliability, there's absolutely no difference.

 

[kentucky_smith]

Fn fal :d

 

[UnTainted]

Armalite has enhanced their feed ramp system in their .308 ar.

 

[W L Johnson]

You can't use the DPMS mags which are way cheaper.

Just checked on both websites
DPMS 19rd 308 - $44.95
Armalite 20rd 308 - $44.95

+ Armalite has the 25rd ones at $53

Both are way too expensive in my book.

 

[LogicGS]

I think the whole 'reliablilty' thing is a myth...I have never had an ounce of trouble with any AR

I believe you are correct. I read this forum and think to myself, "Am I the only guy in the world who's AR's function properly every time I fire them?"

I think the reliability thing is mostly hot air that people spout to justify their purchase of an AK platform rifle, 'cause come on, what else have those rattle traps got going for them?

Personally, I see no reason to own a .308 rifle that you cannot reliably hit a softball with at 100 yds, so I will not own any of the AK variants.

not a big fan of the AR-10 "armalite" as they use only their own mags. You can't use the DPMS mags which are way cheaper.

I will never understand this notion. Even if the mags were 2X as expensive (which they aren't), how many tens of thousands of dollars worth of ammo would you have to shoot through your $1,500+ rifle in order to wear out $400 worth of magazines?

Armalite had standard loadouts of (5) 20 rnd or (5) 25 rnd mags for $200 last year. That's $40 a piece, BFD, every brand of 308AR mag costs about that much. They are not 1/2 the price of Armalite's mags, and I dare say that Armalite's magazines are better built than the competition, so they'll last longer to boot.

It just seems like such a petty and retarded reason to dismiss an entire product line of damned fine rifles. Again, I think it's mostly looking for nits to pick.

If you want to talk about short comings, how about build quality. I have shot both Armalite and DPMS .308AR's and the Armalite is head and shoulders the better fit up rifle. Better finish on the parts, better fit of the parts, and better function of the rifle (which a lot of folks attribute to their new revamped and "overpriced" magazines ).

To each his own, I guess, but it wouldn't even be a question for me.

 

[Ben Shepherd]

Very simple choice here-

Do you want a rifle possibly capable of MOA or not?

Both take semi rare mags that don't fit anything else. Both are reliable with good ammo. Both are effective to 300+ yards with iron sights. If you feel the need to be effective past 300, go AR10 with a scope. If not, the Saiga will be just as effective to the 300 yard mark.

The only other thing you need to consider is ergonomics. Which do YOU prefer, AR or AK?

Answer those two questions honestly, and you'll know which rifle you need.

 

[quatin]

I believe you are correct. I read this forum and think to myself, "Am I the only guy in the world who's AR's function properly every time I fire them?"

I think the reliability thing is mostly hot air that people spout to justify their purchase of an AK platform rifle, 'cause come on, what else have those rattle traps got going for them?

Personally, I see no reason to own a .308 rifle that you cannot reliably hit a softball with at 100 yds, so I will not own any of the AK variants.

You haven't really used your AR then. A range trip every weekend is not what we are talking about when we say "AKs are more reliable than ARs". However, when this subject comes up you really have to ask yourself if you'll ever be in a situation where you'll be abusing your rifle to the point where this makes a difference.

Saiga 308s out of the box can hit softballs all day at 100 yards. If you don't buy a quality AK and don't feed it good ammo, how would you expect it to hit? Everytime someone asks AK accuracy, there's a plaster of "My WASR-10s can hit paper plates at 50 yards with Wolf." and people somehow take that as a benchmark for all AKs.

 

[W L Johnson]

Saiga 308s out of the box can hit softballs all day at 100 yards.

Ok... Now try that at 500 or 600 yards vs an Armalite. The Saiga is a short range shooter and the Armalite a long range shooter.

As as far as jamming my Saiga has jammed, my Armalite AR-10s have not. But to be fair to the saiga I think it was ammo related, but the AR-10 is not a jam-o-matic.

 

[LogicGS]

You haven't really used your AR then. A range trip every weekend is not what we are talking about when we say "AKs are more reliable than ARs".

Well, I live in Missouri.

We have woods and fields and hills, not jungle and rainforest.

I'm also not in a war zone, so I can go home and clean my rifle when I'm done slaying paper and tin cans (or critters).

I'll tell you this though, we've had multiple years of war in sandy and ****ty conditions, and somehow the troops carrying M4's and M16's manage to keep them functioning and fighting.

I had a buddy who wanted to run a torture test on his DPMS M4 knockoff. Didn't clean it for a year, at least a thousand rounds, and that rifle didn't cough once. Covered in carbon and crud in general, but it just kept running and running.

Obviously we don't have blowing sand in MO, but we've got dirt same as everywhere else, and it ate it just fine.

I'd never do something like that to my Armalite, just because I take pride in taking good care of my weapons, but I don't doubt that it could handle it.

I dunno, maybe I just have the touch.

Perhaps it's like lions or tigers or whatever. If the rifle smells your fear of malfunctions, it strikes! lol

I'm an engineer, machinist, and gunsmith. The rifle knows I don't fear malfunctions or break downs, so it doesn't even bother.

 

[MD_Willington]

Funny thing, my saiga 7.62x39 has jammed more times than all 7 of my ARs combined, which is two times now (the saiga). And that includes 2 Armalite AR-10s. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.

I've had the opposite, a coworker has 4 AR's, one of which after all the bells and whistles was $4000...

They all jammed up pretty good...

My Saiga .223 on the other hand rattled off 50 rounds without a single stoppage with cheap old nasty Russian .223.

 

[LogicGS]

Are you saying that none of four (4) AR15's would fire fifty (50) consecutive rounds without a stoppage?

I don't see how that's even possible, especially with quality firearms.

Were you using clapped out magazines? You know they do wear out eventually, right?

I still find that hard to believe.

If that truly is the case, why do these fellows not affect some remedy?

I would not own a rifle that wouldn't cycle even two full magazines without a stoppage. That's ridiculous.

If I were to come into possession of such a device, I would not simply tolerate the malfunctions as "part of the design" (which they are not), I would fix the damned thing.

Firearms are machines, not voodoo totems. Anything they do can be explained in mechanical terms. Anything they do wrong can be tracked down to a cause, which can then be remedied.

 

[W L Johnson]

My Saiga .223 on the other hand rattled off 50 rounds

50 rds is just starting to get the barrel warm. Sorry that's not a test.

But seriously, 4 ARs and they all "jammed up pretty good"? Somethings not right there. My guess would be crap ammo or mags.

I should note that I do have 2 AK type guns, the Saiga and a Mak-90. I also have an VZ-58 which some people confuse with an AK.

Now one of my ARs is an AR-180b which for those who don't know is another Armalite design which came out after the AR-15 as the AR-18 which was full auto and the AR-180b is the semi version. It's like an AR and an AK got together one night and after a few drinks, well you know the rest . There are aspects of it which I like better than an AR-15 or an AK.

 

[M1key]

Keep the Saiga. Spend the money you save on mags and ammo.

Saigas are capable of much better than "softball" sized groups. Try sub-MOA with the right ammo out to 300 meters...

The left is LC 173 Match...right target is Aussie ball @100 yds...

 

[LogicGS]

Then the Saiga must be a great deal tighter than other AK's.

I've shot both Chinese and Yugoslavian AK's that would not hold a pattern smaller than 8" at 100 yds.

Now, this of course brings the next question: If the Saiga is so much tighter that it groups like this, what makes it so much more "reliable" than an AR platform?

I mean, the old tenant has always been that the AK is loose and therefore harder to foul to the point of malfunction. This costs in repeatability.

Now, if you make an AK that repeats like an AR, it is necessarily much tighter than the old "dump a bucket of sand into the ejection port and shoot a case" AK. How then can it still be as reliable?

We're into a cake/eat-it-too situation here.

Now, that all said, I do not doubt that it shot that group.

What I doubt is that it can do that and still be the uber-reliable rattle trap that AK lovers worship.

 

[Ben Shepherd]

Logic-

Saigas are NEW guns, not cobbled together parts kits, and they are made in the original factory. They also have the benefit of having all the improvements that the AK family has had over the years. I own several, and have fired about 2 dozen others that belong to others I shoot with- I love 'em.

One of my my 223 siagas put 12 rounds of S&B green tip into a single hole that was covered by a 1/2 inch target patch sticker just last weekend. No glass, just the standard AK sights. With glass and magnification, I've no doubt it'll hold under 2 inches at 100. My 308 saiga? The factory test fire group puts it at just under 2" @100. I haven't duplicated that yet.(Can't afford the scope at the moment) But I fired 2 others that were scoped that did indeed hold under 2 inches @100 for a 5 shot group.

The key? Use good ammo! Wolf black box won't cut it. It's fine for plinking, but I've tried to get it under 3" at 100 in 4 different 223s now that shoot well under an inch with match ammo. Hasn't happened yet. As far as 308? Tried some in my Ruger M77 with similar results. Looks like you'd expect a good 00 buck load to look like at 30 yards.

Reliability? Both 223 siagas I have are over the 5,000 round mark easily. Exactly 1 malfunction that was ammo related. So, IME, they do just fine.

 

[JWarren]

I used to have a converted Saiga 308. I loved the rifle for what it was. I never had a misfire, and it shot with any ammunition that I used.

Now listen... the Saiga 308 IS a good rifle. However, you will NEVER get the accuracy out of a Saiga 308 that you can get out of a 308 AR. I attempted and I did get good accuracy out of the Saiga, but not what I have come to accept out of any hunting rifle that I have ever owned.

I sold mine a couple years ago and I have settled on the DPMS LR-308B that I have customized to my liking.


Insomuch as the Saiga is a reliable rifle, for what I need out of a .308, it did not perform to my standards.



EDIT:

I forgot to mention that the offset rail optics mount on the Saiga makes it very difficult to fire the rifle with an optic left-handed. While I naturally shoot right-handed, I'd had to take many shots while hunting off the left shoulder. You can forget it using a Saiga. This nasty little fact cost me more than one shot.

-- John