Saiga .308 vs AR10

[LogicGS]

Saigas are NEW guns, not cobbled together parts kits, and they are made in the original factory.

Ya think?

That's just what I said. To shoot like that, they have to be tighter.

You cannot decrease clearance inside the weapon and maintain the ability to digest sand and mud with no effect.

The rifle is either loose and insensitive to grit, or tight and repeatable.

You can't have both, not matter how new the design is.

Like I said, firearms are machines, there is no voodoo or mystery involved.

 

[Ben Shepherd]

Logic-

They are tight(for an AK). But IMNSHO, they haven't been tightened up to the point that they lose the AK reliability.

Had they been, we would be talking about group sizes rivaling the AR10. We're not. We're talking a 2 MOA AK at best.

 

[JWarren]

Gotta agree with Ben on this one....

A Saiga is probably going to be the most accurate AK that you will EVER own.

While I am out of the AK world these days, if I ever get another AK, you damned well better believe it will be a Saiga.


-- John

 

[4Freedom]

I just got my newly converted Saiga 308 from the gunsmith yesterday. SO please nobody rag on Saiga 308s too hard . I just wanted to have one communist member to my family of patriotic American guns. Yeah, perhaps it was just the eastern evil appeal of the gun why I had to get a Russian Kalashnikov. As far as it being as accurate as my ARs, I doubt it from the endless amount of reading I have done. However, I think if a zombie attack ever happened and I hadto run into the woods to survive, I take that Saiga 308 over my DPMS 308.

Somebody here mentioned you cannot shoot the Saiga 308 left handed with an optic. Can anyone else back up this claim? I am right-handed, but left-eye dominated. I suppose if I cannot use an optic, I would be best to shoot it right handed with a red dot sight or something. Can anyone give me their opinions the best way to shoot the Saiga 308 left-handed with an optic?

 

[elmerfudd]

I've got 4 Saiga rifles right now and I find they all shoot about 2 MOA.

 

[Ben Shepherd]

I'm a lefty, and can shoot them OK with glass, but the cheek weld isn't the best.

 

[JWarren]

4Freedom,

Please don't take my posts as "ragging" the Saiga. I love them. You mentioned that you have a DPMS LR-308... so you know the accuracy you can expect out of those. If one hopes for that kind of accuracy out of the Saiga with all things being equal (optics, bench, etc.), they will be disappointed.

If you have realistic expectations for the Saiga based upon any other experiences with the AK platform, you will find that your expectations will be surpassed.

The 308 AR is in a "special" that not many "EBRs" get to share in terms of accuracy. The accurized M1A is there, so are some of the PTR-91's out there. I had an HK-91 that I was very happy with in terms of accuracy.

I'll agree with you that the Saiga 308 will likely stand up to far more abuse than any AR, and that is a huge selling point. Being the kind of guy I am with accuracy expectations however, I wasn't willing to trade off for it.

As has been mentioned here before, somehow our guys in Iraq and Afganistan seem to be making it with the AR platform, so I'll OK with it.


As for optics and left-handed shooting...

It IS possible to shoot the scoped Saiga 308 left-handed. I just found it excessively difficult and uncomfortable to do so. The problem lies in the fact that the optic is not centered over the bore of on the Saiga. It sets slightly offset to the left side of the bore. When attempting to fire off the left shoulder, you find that you have to "reach" with your head to get to the optic.

I've no idea if that will be different with a Red-dot type optic like the Kobra reflex sight. I didn't have much need for a reflex sight on a 308.

Again, don't think I'm coming down on the Saiga. It is a solid rifle, but not one without its quirks and limitations-- like any rifle.


Back when I was a stockbroker, we used to say that there's no such thing as a 35% Interest CD (well, outside of the Carter Administration anyway )


But the same principle applies... Everything has trade-offs. I'd say that you have your bases covered.


-- John

 

[LogicGS]

They are tight(for an AK). But IMNSHO, they haven't been tightened up to the point that they lose the AK reliability.

Had they been, we would be talking about group sizes rivaling the AR10. We're not. We're talking a 2 MOA AK at best.

OK, now we're getting somewhere.

I've never owned a Saiga, so I'll take your word on it being the hands down best shooter of the AK world.

I guess in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

Every AK that has ever passed through my hands has been 6-8 MOA at best. The things were like shotguns that sent their buck shot one pellet at a time. Just not my bag.

I'll leave the argument at that, except to say to the OP that if you can't decide between and AR and an AK, you'd better shoot both for a while to find out. I don't want to say they're like oil and water, 'cause they can mix, but it's been my experience that people either like one or the other. They may own both, but they'll dote on their favorite and leave the other in the safe.

 

[Ben Shepherd]

Logic-

With steel cased commie elcheapo ammo, they are only about a 4 inch gun. You have to feed them good(expensive) ammo if you expect better groups. I will admit after I get them zeroed with good ammo, they rarely see much more of it. I reload, and like all AKs, they just TRASH the brass unless you soften the charging handle up and put a guard strip on the receiver cover. That isn't for me. I just shoot 'em with the steel cased ammo they were designed for.

 

[M1key]

+1 on cheaper steel-cased ammo...the main reason I own Saigas in each caliber. I would also look hard at ones in 5.45 and 54R...which are supposed to be imported sometime this year.

Saigas have a cast-off stock which is great for righties...but makes it difficult for left-handed shooters. Try a straight aftermarket butt stock like one of the Aces. Also the scope mounts are a bit problematic when trying to get the scopes mounted over the axis of the bore. But, it is do-able with a little shim work.

 

[JWarren]

M1key wrote:

Saigas have a cast-off stock which is great for righties...but makes it difficult for left-handed shooters. Try a straight aftermarket butt stock like one of the Aces. Also the scope mounts are a bit problematic when trying to get the scopes mounted over the axis of the bore. But, it is do-able with a little shim work.

I had an ACE stock on mine. It was my experience that the stock never was an issue with when I shot it left-handed-- it was that PSOP optics mount.

How did you shim your mount? My experiece the the PSOP mount was that you slid it into the slot and locked it down. I can't see any way that it could have been shimmed-- although I admit that I may have well missed something obvious.


Here it the one that I used to own:







-- John

 

[M1key]

Washers under the screws...

I use the low profile Belarus mounts, though some of them are hit or miss as far as alignment goes.

 

[MD_Willington]

Seriously, yes his rifles jammed up pretty good
First we used M855
Wolf .223 <-- I know dirty for an AR
Silver Bear .223 <-- dirty too

Something was definitely wrong with his AR's as the M855 didn't run smooth to begin with.

My Saiga, generally referred to as my "Russian Metal Regurgitator" handled the following:
LC M855
Barnual-JSC 5.56x45
Wolf .223
Silver Bear .223
HSM JHP and JSP .223

It didn't have a problem.

The ammo was in Bulgarian 5.56x45 AK magazines and a loose Galil magazine

 

[WardenWolf]

MD, I suspect his problem was that he'd been shooting a lot of steel cased Wolf and didn't use a chamber brush on his chamber, and had just done a standard cleaning after previous shoots. Steel cased ammo doesn't expand to seal the chamber, so carbon fouling gets in there and seals it instead. This shrinks the chamber, which makes brass get stuck. Don't mix steel and brass without cleaning in between. It's a bad idea, and hard on the gun. Wolf isn't really dirty in smaller calibers, so that's not really the culprit. It only gets nasty with some of their large rifle calibers like 7.62x54R.

My honest opinion is that you should own at least one AK. They're better long-term survival guns than most other designs. The reason Saigas are more accurate is because the overall tolerances are tighter, but not in the areas that affect reliability. The most important parts of an AK are the gas piston and the star-shaped gas tube. The star-shaped gas tube is critical because it reduces points of contact with the piston head and creates channels for fouling to fall into so it will not interfere with the weapon's operation. This allows limited blowby, but not enough to reach the receiver. Because this system keeps the fouling out of the receiver, you can produce the rest of the gun to tighter tolerances and still maintain legendary reliability. Incidentally, that's the failing point of most piston AR's: they fail to take into account that some parts don't need to be, and in fact shouldn't be, precision pieces for the rest of the gun to perform just the same. If they took this into account, the AR could approach AK reliability.

 

[Davionmaximus]

The AR "reliability" issue can be solved with a 500 buck aftermarket gas piston-pushrod kit. They are available. This kit allows no blow by to reach the chamber.
Makes the AR as reliable and the AK. But the AK will never be as accurate at range as the AR.

 

[WardenWolf]

And yet to accomplish "no blowby", they have just fallen into the same trap I just mentioned. The area around the piston is too tight. You want some blowby of the piston head to allow for carbon buildup in the gas tube, but not so far as reaching the receiver. And I just love how something so common sense costs $500, which is $150 more than I paid for my whole Saiga .223 in the first place.

 

[W L Johnson]

And I just love how something so common sense costs $500, which is $150 more than I paid for my whole Saiga .223 in the first place.

That's $300 more than I paid for my saiga. And only $200 less than I paid for an NIB Armalite AR-180b which is AR type with a piston-pushrod build in from the start. Armalite designed these back in the 60s in the form of the AR-18 but the military passed on it.

 

[Ironwings]

Enjoyed it all

I am new to this sight but not to shooting and firearms. I have over 31 years in the military and have been shooting since I was a boy. I own two Saiga's one in 7.63x39 and a rescently purchased 308. I like the saiga as you get the most for the money and they are very reliable and accurate at close to medium range. I can shoot below 2 inch groups with the 7.62x39 at 100 yards, now the 308 I have not shot yet. As for the AR, what can you say, many years of shooting it and I always qualified expert with it back when I shot it for work. They are outstanding rifles and I love shooting them. But to me, I believe they are in different classes. It comes down to money and what you get out of the box before any mods. I just enjoy shooting now and the Saiga is very much an enjoyable rifle to have fun with on the range and very inexpensive compared to an AR. Some may say you get what you pay for, I believe this but you can with some good homework realize the Saiga is a bargain, not bar far means the best rifle. But if I would put the kind of money into it as some of my friends and co workers have in there I am sure the saiga would compete very well. Now for long range accuracy I prefer a bolt action myself, it just fits me well. I also know this thread is old, but just incase anyone reads it.

 

[d2wing]

My Saiga is fun to shoot, for accuracy is much better than a surplus AK. Which means once in awhile with a scope I can get a 3 inch group at 100 yards. I had problems with feeding until I bought and installed a feed ramp kit. You may get a rare 2 inch group out of one. AR s typically shoot 2 MOA or better.
For actual use, I would just as soon get either a Remington 750, or Browning
BAR. I like tactical rifles but for hunting, a tradition stock is much better for me.